Should we show an interest in the OWS movement?

[ClubV12]

Well I don't know that I would "preach" that to a dieing patient. I would "preach", rather, tell the poor fellow, that there is still time to simply accept the gift of salvation. That Jesus died for him and all he has to do is accept it. Like the thief on the cross, perhaps only hours from death. All he had to do was believe what Jesus said.

It's a solem thing to die, but far more solem to live, a greater responsibility to the Lord, to ourselves, to others. In the end, our "works" mean nothing in terms of being welcomed to the Holy City. That is strictly by the grace of God through the sacifice of His Son, if only we will accept it.

The more I study the third angels message the more I find in it. It's difficult to wrap the package up into a single sentence or phrase. Sister White says the third angels message is verily righteouness by faith and a warning to those who fail to accept it.

[Gerr]

No physician in his right mind would just prescribe a medicine for any gravely sick patient. Make the right diagnosis first, tell the bad news, then give the cure for the patient. Jesus showed the sickness in the rich young ruler's life and then gave him the right treatment. If you want to do differently, go right ahead.

[Gerr]

They are the words you are emphasizing here.

I'm doing that just to get your goat.

[Overaged]

I wondered where my goat went! YOU GOT HIM!!

[phkrause]

I give up! LOL

LOL is right cardw, I think the majority know exactly what your saying.

[ClubV12]

Might not agree with Cardw's position, but there is no mystery as to where he's coming from, what he's saying. The mystery is, how could it possibly be misunderstood?

...go figure.

[phkrause]

Might not agree with Cardw's position, but there is no mystery as to where he's coming from, what he's saying. The mystery is, how could it possibly be misunderstood?

...go figure.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

You are all over the board with no coherent message. I hope your last paragraph will mean that you are dedicated to getting the true facts (something I already have) for yourself so as to have a coherent message in the future.

I give up! LOL

OK.

[ClubV12]

"If the church should help such individuals (the poor) instead of leaving them to rely upon their own resources, it would injure them in the end, for they look to the church and expect to receive help from them and do not practice self-denial and economy when they are well provided for. And if they do not receive help every time, Satan tempts them, and they become jealous and very conscientious for their brethren, fearing they will fail to do all their duty to them. The mistake is on their own part. They are deceived."

Testimonies, Volume 1. 1855, pg 273

Sister White struggled with how to help the poor, especially those who had joined the church. The Lord gave her specific inspired knowledge on how to address this. Basically "principles" that apply to all cases, not to any one case in particular. There is MUCH counsel on this topic from her writings. She said some would waste whatever money was given them, whether it be much or little. We have to balance our sincere desire to want to help by recognizing what will and will not help in any given case. Some folks might have to go hungry, and while that breaks my heart, sometimes giving them food may only make them more dependant on hand outs.

"The instructions given in the word of God in regard to helping the poor do not touch such cases, but are for the unfortunate and afflicted. God in His providence has afflicted individuals to test and prove others. Widows and invalids are in the church to prove a blessing to the church. They are a part of the means which God has chosen to develop the true character of Christ’s professed followers and to call into exercise the precious traits of character manifested by our compassionate Redeemer."

Testimonies, Volume 1. 1855, pg 273

"I was shown that a most solemn duty rests upon the church to have an especial care for the destitute widows, orphans, and invalids."

Testimonies, Volume 1. 1855, pg 274

[phkrause]

Very interesting comments by EGW.

[Overaged]

Very interesting comments by EGW.

[ClubV12]

Taking special care of one group of people does not exclude taking care of other groups of people. But it does establish a priority.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

Very interesting comments by EGW.

Notice she didn't say SWM

Quote:

"I was shown that a most solemn duty rests upon the church to have an especial care for the destitute widows, orphans, and invalids."

Testimonies, Volume 1. 1855, pg 274

Its local and personal.

Ellen White was not talking about the Fed Gov doing all the work. In fact the statement is in reference to the "local church".

[cardw]

"I was shown that a most solemn duty rests upon the church to have an especial care for the destitute widows, orphans, and invalids."

Testimonies, Volume 1. 1855, pg 274

I agree with this, except that I extend this beyond the church because obviously the church is not doing this for everyone. There are churches that do this for their members, but even this is pretty rare since much of the resources that come into the church go to the operation of the church.

The problem with cutting social programs all at once is that these groups of people often don't even have the ability to complain. Particularly the marginally mentally challenged. They don't have the intelligence to even know that they are destitute.

I wish these programs would be implemented locally. There is no lack of wealth within the church to do this. There is a lack of vision and desire. President Bush paved the way for Faith based organizations to implement many of these programs, but the wave of help never came.

The other problem with telling even the poor to go get a job is that we are at 9% unemployment among people who want to work. If this is true then how do you expect the uneducated poor to get jobs? The only option they have is entrepreneurial which requires a lot of intelligence.

It won't work to just let them go hungry because many of them will simply starve because they lack the skills and intelligence to find work. Even if they all had the skills and desire to work you would see the unemployment rate soar because you would have a whole new group of people enter into the work force.

This is a problem that will require personal involvement over generations to solve. I am not suggesting that we simply throw more money at it.

Because of political gridlock people are suffering. They are suffering because an out of balance welfare system is creating multigenerational dependency. They are also suffering because those that really need help can't get it because of the complexity of the bureaucratic system often excludes them from help. This is because the solutions are based on simplistic ideas and implemented through inexperienced management.

In this country we are depleting the middle class. The only middle class left are professionals and small business owners and even this class is being squeezed by large corporations who have gained control of the professions and markets. The labor middle class is being decimated by cheap overseas labor and the concentration of wealth at the top. This is not me making this up. This is verified by the numbers.

Not everyone is smart so you have to have opportunities for people to work that require a variety of skills. And these jobs have to have living wages, otherwise you basically have a slave labor class that will always be poor. Many people in these labor classes aren't smart enough to know how to negotiate fair wages and really don't have a chance against large corporations who have teams of lawyers and very smart financiers. This is where government needs to regulate because the labor class is simply is out of their league when it comes to these large corporations.

When people repeat these very carefully crafted propaganda pieces about the poor being the problem, they are supporting a system that is being gamed by the most powerful and the most intelligent. Right now gridlock is in the best interest of the wealthy because if you have been following the financial markets you will see that the market has largely rebounded and financial stocks are making huge profits. They don't want reform, which is largely returning the rules to what they used to be. Corporations are not people and banks shouldn't be in the business of investing.

A few years ago I was shocked to find out that I had a credit card at 49% interest because of a technicality around payment dates. I'm smart enough to know that I had to zero that card out and cancel it. I called the bank and the answer I got was that everyone is doing this. I answered back that just because everyone is doing it doesn't make it right. There was long silence at the other end of the line.

49% is a loan shark rate and that had become the norm. These types of things have been happening all through the financial system because of deregulation and have not been changed. That is why gridlock is in the best interest of banks and Wall Street. They are very smart people and this is a very complex problem that is only going to get worse if you let politicians who have been placed into power by money provided by these institutions make the rules.

Now because anything that has the word Obama on it is immediate dismissed and blocked we have had the consumer protection bureau sitting powerless to make any changes to these unfair financial tools. Because there is a total lack of compromise the most powerful will continue to have their way.

That is why it angers me so much to see this blanket propaganda against anything Democrats or Obama want to do.

[CoAspen]

[ClubV12]

Both Card and miz make good points about Ellen Whites comments being "local", if you would. I'll take that a step farther even, reading that entire section of Testimonies Volume 1 on this issue it's pretty clear she was specifically referring to the poor who had joined the church (accepted the Sabbath truth is the way she put it). So the question on her mind was: How do we take care of the poor WITHIN the CHURCH? A reasonable question because it's common sense to take care of "family" as a first priority, while not ignoring your neighbor at the same time.

Churches and civil groups cannot meet the need and thats where the cumbersome, sure to make mistakes, waste and fraud prone "Government" comes into play. Certainly NOT the best way to handle it, but as problematic as the Governments attempts to help are, at least their doing something.

To keep the balance, we certainly NEED some system of "watch dogs" to at least put a damper on fraud, waste, mismangement, etc. Government appointed watch dogs, civil watchdogs, politically motivated watch dogs and people holding signs in the streets and protesting watch dogs! We need watch dogs in the church as well, a frightening thought, but a harsh reality. Somebody has to actually look at each case and make a decision! So no one literally "starves" and so those that CAN work, will at least try to do so.

[CoAspen]

"If the church should help such individuals (the poor) instead of leaving them to rely upon their own resources, it would injure them in the end, for they look to the church and expect to receive help from them and do not practice self-denial and economy when they are well provided for. And if they do not receive help every time, Satan tempts them, and they become jealous and very conscientious for their brethren, fearing they will fail to do all their duty to them. The mistake is on their own part. They are deceived."

Testimonies, Volume 1. 1855, pg 273

Sister White struggled with how to help the poor, especially those who had joined the church. The Lord gave her specific inspired knowledge on how to address this. Basically "principles" that apply to all cases, not to any one case in particular. There is MUCH counsel on this topic from her writings. She said some would waste whatever money was given them, whether it be much or little. We have to balance our sincere desire to want to help by recognizing what will and will not help in any given case. Some folks might have to go hungry, and while that breaks my heart, sometimes giving them food may only make them more dependant on hand outs.

"The instructions given in the word of God in regard to helping the poor do not touch such cases, but are for the unfortunate and afflicted. God in His providence has afflicted individuals to test and prove others. Widows and invalids are in the church to prove a blessing to the church. They are a part of the means which God has chosen to develop the true character of Christ’s professed followers and to call into exercise the precious traits of character manifested by our compassionate Redeemer."

Testimonies, Volume 1. 1855, pg 273

"I was shown that a most solemn duty rests upon the church to have an especial care for the destitute widows, orphans, and invalids."

Testimonies, Volume 1. 1855, pg 274

So, are the above quotes meant to say something about society's poor or a particular group with in the church. Not sure where you are going with this???

[ClubV12]

I take it to mean BOTH CoAspen, as Pauls example in the bible also shows. Paul, like Ellen White, had a particular burden for those within the church. This is reasonable, we should have a greater burden for "family first", then branch out to the community as the need presents itself.

[ClubV12]

For years, before I joined the Adventist church, I've been active in my community helping the poor. The need is over whelming!!! You absolutely cannot help them all, you HAVE to pick and choose and sometimes are forced to make terrible choices. When I joined the church, I started looking around and saw there was a lot of need right at my door step. My efforts now are primarily with the churches, plural, in my area, while I STILL reach out to the community. I'm working with a few folks right now who have been so traumatized by society they are fearful of taking help from anybody, and that especially includes church groups.

[CoAspen]

Okay, I can accept that..but...

Quote:

"If the church should help such individuals (the poor) instead of leaving them to rely upon their own resources, it would injure them in the end, for they look to the church and expect to receive help from them and do not practice self-denial and economy when they are well provided for.

...you do realize that some will use that partial quote as confirmation of 'filtering'. That, I believe, is not a reflection of the intent of any of the words by Christ. I can assume that was not your intent?

[ClubV12]

Indeed CoAspen, it IS a frightening quote and I have asked myself about my own personal attitude toward it. I think it would be VERY easy to get out of balance on this issue. Become judgmental and come up with very good biblical and Spirit of Prophecy reasons why you don't need to help such and such a person.

It's a tough call, not easy to stay balanced, only by the grace of God.

[miz3]

Okay, I can accept that..but...

Quote:

"If the church should help such individuals (the poor) instead of leaving them to rely upon their own resources, it would injure them in the end, for they look to the church and expect to receive help from them and do not practice self-denial and economy when they are well provided for.

...you do realize that some will use that partial quote as confirmation of 'filtering'. That, I believe, is not a reflection of the intent of any of the words by Christ. I can assume that was not your intent?

The experience of Jesus Christ at the pool of Bethesda is a great example.

Here Jesus Christ was surrounded by all kinds of poor and needy but He didn't heal them all.

Why didn't Christ just heal them all? Why did Christ only heal "ONE LONE CRIPPLE"?

Christ could have healed them all but He didn't heal them all.

[ClubV12]

And yet, in other places Sister White talks about whole villages and towns where there was not ONE left to suffer. ALL were healed! Whew, where do you draw the line?

I know from my own experience I HAVE made mistakes, helping when I shouldn't, not helping when I should. I'm learning from that, God help me to get it right.

[miz3]

The experience of Jesus Christ at the pool of Bethesda is a great example.

Here Jesus Christ was surrounded by all kinds of poor and needy but He didn't heal them all.

Why didn't Christ just heal them all? Why did Christ only heal "ONE LONE CRIPPLE"?

Christ could have healed them all but He didn't heal them all.

I will comment on my own post.

To be fair we also know that Jesus Christ did heal large numbers of people in many villages. So there is both sides to this issue.

The question was asked "why didn't Jesus heal them all"?

The answer to miz3's question is that Jesus Christ did what His Father told Him to do. So the Father in His infinite wisdom told Christ when, how, etc. to heal and not to heal. It was the Father's Wisdom not merely the wisdom of the human entity.

So it may be with us humans of Christ's Family. We are dependent on the Father to tell us when and when not to do.

How many of us are following Christ's example of being so close to the Father that we know all the right moves?

Hmmm!

I know I don't measure up. I would like too though.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: miz3

The experience of Jesus Christ at the pool of Bethesda is a great example.

Here Jesus Christ was surrounded by all kinds of poor and needy but He didn't heal them all.

Why didn't Christ just heal them all? Why did Christ only heal "ONE LONE CRIPPLE"?

Christ could have healed them all but He didn't heal them all.

I will comment on my own post.

To be fair we also know that Jesus Christ did heal large numbers of people in many villages. So there is both sides to this issue.

The question was asked "why didn't Jesus heal them all"?

The answer to miz3's question is that Jesus Christ did what His Father told Him to do. So the Father in His infinite wisdom told Christ when, how, etc. to heal and not to heal. It was the Father's Wisdom not merely the wisdom of the human entity.

So it may be with us humans of Christ's Family. We are dependent on the Father to tell us when and when not to do.

How many of us are following Christ's example of being so close to the Father that we know all the right moves?

Hmmm!

I know I don't measure up. I would like too though.

You're now talking to yourself?