Should we show an interest in the OWS movement?

[olger]

[phkrause]

That's one opinion, here's another one

http://butasforme.com/2011/10/13/plain-speaking-jesse-ventura-stands-with-occupy-wall-street-video/

[bonnie]

That's one opinion, here's another one

http://butasforme.com/2011/10/13/plain-speaking-jesse-ventura-stands-with-occupy-wall-street-video/

Now that is a voice of intelligence and reasoning.

[John317]

I'm curious what anyone here thinks of what Glenn Beck has to say about OWS... I found this program very interesting and think this man needs a Great Controversy. I think he would perhaps accept Adventism. Just some thoughts. Care to share yours?

http://web.gbtv.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=19948639

I think that's a great idea. I hope someone makes sure Glenn Beck gets copy of GC.

[John317]

Alex, do you still maintain your support of the anti-Wall Street protesters?

Here's the latest about how their protests are going. As of this morning, they have forced Portland to shut down its shipping port, and now they are working at doing the same in Long Beach and in a number of other west-coast ports.

Quote:

Occupy protesters seek to shut West Coast ports

AP – 27 mins ago...

OAKLAND, Calif. (AP) — Anti-Wall Street protesters along the West Coast joined an effort Monday to blockade some of the nation's busiest docks, with the idea that if they cut off the ports, they cut into corporate profits.

The protesters are targeting the locations because they believe American ports have become "economic engines for the elite." They are most upset by two West Coast companies — giant West Coast port operator SSA Marine and grain exporter EGT — that they believe epitomize the big corporations that make up the "1 percent."

Goldman Sachs owns a major stake in SSA Marine, and the bank has been a repeated target of Occupy protesters since the movement began. The two port companies have also engaged in high-profile clashes with union workers lately, and the Occupy protesters want to stand up for the workers.

Several hundred people began picketing at the Port of Oakland before dawn and blocked some trucks from going inside. Police are monitoring at the scene, but no major clashes have been reported so far. Occupy protesters successfully shut down the port in November.

In Southern California, as many as 400 demonstrators gathered in a park and planned to march on the Port of Long Beach. Occupy protesters said they plan to head to a dock facility owned by SSA Marine.

About 300 people gathered at Kelly Point Park in Portland, Ore., and Kari Koch, organizer with Shut Down the Ports Working Group of Occupy Portland, said she expected hundreds more to picket the nearby terminal. Police arrested three people and seized a gun and sword from people who said they were on the way to the demonstration.

Occupy groups also planned blockades in Seattle, Tacoma, Wash., and Vancouver, British Columbia.

The protests being billed as action against "Wall Street on the waterfront" are perhaps the Occupy movement's most dramatic gesture since police raids sent most remaining camps scattering last month. Demonstrators began forming those camps around the country about two months ago to protest what they call corporate greed and economic inequality.

"We will not stand for corporate profits at the expense of working people, we will not stand for attacks on workers, and we will not allow our schools to be closed, social services slashed, and families to be impoverished by your greed!" Koch said Monday in statement.

The Port of Oakland has appealed to city residents not to join the blockade, which they said could hurt the port's standing among customers and cost local jobs.

"The port is going to do all that it can to keep operations going. Our businesses need to hear that. Our workers need to know that," said Port of Oakland spokesman Isaac Kos-Read.

Officials at West Coast ports said they have been coordinating with law enforcement agencies as they prepare for possible disruptions. Protesters said police violence against blockades in any city will trigger an extension of blockades in other cities as a show of resolve.

Organizers of the port demonstrations said they hope to draw thousands to stand in solidarity with longshoremen and port truckers they said are being exploited, though the International Longshore and Warehouse Union, which represents many thousands of longshoremen up and down the West Coast, has distanced itself from the shutdown effort.

The union's president suggested in a letter to members that protesters were attempting to co-opt the union's cause to advance their own agenda.

Protesters have cited a longstanding dispute between longshoremen at the Port of Longview in Washington and grain exporter EGT as a key reason for the blockades. Shutdown supporters said they're not asking longshoremen to organize a work stoppage in violation of their contract but simply asking them to exercise their free speech rights and stay off the job, in keeping with the union's historic tradition of activism.

If protesters muster large enough numbers to block port entrances, arbitrators could declare unsafe working conditions, which would allow port workers to stay home.

Organized labor appears divided over the port shutdown effort. In Oakland, which saw strong union support for the Nov. 2 general strike that culminated in the closing of the port, the city's teachers union is backing Monday's action, while the county's construction workers have come out against the shutdown, saying the port has provided jobs to many unemployed workers and apprentices.

Question:

Should Seventh-day Adventists be either supporting or participating in these kinds of actions or the groups who are doing them?

[John317]

But would Jesus favor the forced closure of the shipping ports as the anti-Wall Street protesters are doing today on the West coast? Is this something SDAs ought to be either participating in or supporting?

[lazarus]

But would Jesus favor the forced closure of the shipping ports as the anti-Wall Street protesters are doing today on the West coast? Is this something SDAs ought to be either participating in or supporting?

MLK's clergy colleagues asked the same thing concerning his protests.

Excerpt from the Letter from a Birmingham jail..... But more basically, I am in Birmingham because injustice is here. Just as the prophets of the eighth century B.C. left their villages and carried their "thus saith the Lord" far beyond the boundaries of their home towns, and just as the Apostle Paul left his village of Tarsus and carried the gospel of Jesus Christ to the far corners of the Greco Roman world, so am I compelled to carry the gospel of freedom beyond my own home town. Like Paul, I must constantly respond to the Macedonian call for aid.

Moreover, I am cognizant of the interrelatedness of all communities and states. I cannot sit idly by in Atlanta and not be concerned about what happens in Birmingham. Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. Never again can we afford to live with the narrow, provincial "outside agitator" idea. Anyone who lives inside the United States can never be considered an outsider anywhere within its bounds.

You deplore the demonstrations taking place in Birmingham. But your statement, I am sorry to say, fails to express a similar concern for the conditions that brought about the demonstrations. I am sure that none of you would want to rest content with the superficial kind of social analysis that deals merely with effects and does not grapple with underlying causes. It is unfortunate that demonstrations are taking place in Birmingham, but it is even more unfortunate that the city's white power structure left the Negro community with no alternative.

[lazarus]

Some port workers appreciate the efforts of the OWS movement.....

We are inspired that a non-violent democratic movement that insists on basic economic fairness is capturing the hearts and minds of so many working people. Thank you “99 Percenters” for hearing our call for justice. We are humbled and overwhelmed by recent attention. Normally we are invisible.

http://cleanandsafeports.org/blog/2011/12/12/an-open-letter-from-america%E2%80%99s-port-truck-drivers-on-occupy-the-ports/

[ClubV12]

I am reminded of the fact that many dock workers, blue collar guys, with overtime, make more than a $100,000 a year.

...life is good! :)

[cardw]

I am reminded of the fact that many dock workers, blue collar guys, with overtime, make more than a $100,000 a year.

...life is good!

You know early in this country's history it was said to a group of people, "If you don't work, you don't eat!"

This was not the poor that this was being said to. It was the rich. They expected their money to substitute for their work. People saw that it was simply a different version of the royal family.

You know why dock workers get paid well? It's because they will strike. Because they know that big business doesn't respond to reason or fairness. It only responds to force.

We use the term Wall Street, when we really should be calling them bookies. Most brokers are taking a percentage of a bet (trade in wall street terms) that you make on a certain stock or commodity. Why do you think they use the term "Hedge fund?" It's reference to hedging your bet.

You can bet if a stock will go up or down. You can bet on all kinds of commodities which generally makes their cost go up. For example oil should be getting cheaper because we have almost doubled production and yet commodity trades are keeping the price up because everybody believes that it's more valuable than it is.

I treat a lot of people who retire from the hard labor jobs and they pay a price in their bodies for doing that work. Why shouldn't they be paid well for the actual service they provide?

Instead Wall street gets paid a whole lot more for producing nothing. They are leaches on our society and you have be duped into defending their "right" to do that. Shame on you.

[fccool]

Wall-Street is essentially a financial casino. I have no idea how is it that Christians can look at one type of gambling and condemn it, and then turn around and say the second one is all good and right.

There's a difference between investing in a company... make educated choices believing that such company will use the money to generate products from which you yourself will benefit.

AND...

Betting AGAINST certain company's success, knowing that some company's failure will turn you quite a hefty chunk of cash. Imagine someone betting on whether you will or will not be able to go to work tomorrow. That's what Wall-Street has become.

To be fair, there are legitemate investors out there who actually invest in companies, and that every investment is a gamble of a sort. But what we are talking about is making millions of buy-sell trades in a span of a day, based on high-end algorithmic computations of expected demand. That's the companies that rule Wall-Street today.

[CoAspen]

I suspect the organization has drifted off course. The docks, what does that have to do with Wall Street? Saw a picture of one of their signs...Send the ships back to China, Buy made in America. So we also have lack of reality thinking on their part as well.

We don't by imports-those countries don't buy our products.

Make those product in USA-pay 3 -4 times what is being paid now.

Americans are complaining about the costs of goods-are they goin to pay more?

We most likely don't have the work force to manufacture the products, even putting unemployed to work.

Small business, family owned have maufacturing done in China, going to put them out of work also?

I could go on and on! Take the issue to the source of the problem, Wall Street and Washington DC! I suspect we are experiencing the same thing as during the VN area, notheing else to do, go protest! My suggestion, become part of the solution, not the problem. WS is laughing all the way to their deposit accounts!!

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

I am reminded of the fact that many dock workers, blue collar guys, with overtime, make more than a $100,000 a year.

...life is good!

You know early in this country's history it was said to a group of people, "If you don't work, you don't eat!"

This was not the poor that this was being said to. It was the rich. They expected their money to substitute for their work. People saw that it was simply a different version of the royal family.

You know why dock workers get paid well? It's because they will strike. Because they know that big business doesn't respond to reason or fairness. It only responds to force.

We use the term Wall Street, when we really should be calling them bookies. Most brokers are taking a percentage of a bet (trade in wall street terms) that you make on a certain stock or commodity. Why do you think they use the term "Hedge fund?" It's reference to hedging your bet.

You can bet if a stock will go up or down. You can bet on all kinds of commodities which generally makes their cost go up. For example oil should be getting cheaper because we have almost doubled production and yet commodity trades are keeping the price up because everybody believes that it's more valuable than it is.

I treat a lot of people who retire from the hard labor jobs and they pay a price in their bodies for doing that work. Why shouldn't they be paid well for the actual service they provide?

Instead Wall street gets paid a whole lot more for producing nothing. They are leaches on our society and you have be duped into defending their "right" to do that. Shame on you.

I agree 100%. Not only that, the spin by some on a number of other threads is that "If you don't work, you don't eat!" is for others and not the rich. There are many that would love to be working but can't.

[CoAspen]

A little Seattle Longshoreman wages 'facts' on wages.....

[fccool]

Quote:

I suspect the organization has drifted off course. The docks, what does that have to do with Wall Street? Saw a picture of one of their signs...Send the ships back to China, Buy made in America. So we also have lack of reality thinking on their part as well.

We don't by imports-those countries don't buy our products.

What does imports-export industry have to do with immoral Wall-Street gambling practices that merely place bets on future demand?

Quote:

Make those product in USA-pay 3 -4 times what is being paid now.

Americans are complaining about the costs of goods-are they goin to pay more?

We most likely don't have the work force to manufacture the products, even putting unemployed to work.

Small business, family owned have maufacturing done in China, going to put them out of work also?

The problem in this case is not with United States. The problem is with China, which is willing to exploit it's comparative advantage of abundant work-force and mass-produce these products much cheaper.

United States could levy huge import-taxes on Chines goods, but it's currently more beneficial for the US to have a service industry, and take advantage of the comparative offers of China. There's nothing "evil" about it. It's simple economics.

Quote:

I could go on and on! Take the issue to the source of the problem, Wall Street and Washington DC! I suspect we are experiencing the same thing as during the VN area, notheing else to do, go protest! My suggestion, become part of the solution, not the problem. WS is laughing all the way to their deposit accounts!!

I think that's the issue is that Washington is unable to change anything, because prostitution is legal in Washington , and Wall-Street and banks has more money than these people.

I suspect that one day those people will go by the way of Greece for Washington to finally move and do something about it.

[CoAspen]

You are saying the same thing I was. The sign was held by the occupy people! The organization I am talking about is the occupy persons, they are off course.

[John317]

Many

of the same people that were in Denver are in New York agitating people against the upper classes. A lot of those people are professional protestors. They want the police and the government to look bad.

Originally Posted By: abelisle

@ John

And you know this for sure because ___________________? I live here and haven't seen or heard anything like this.

I think the events that have happened since you posted show that your understanding of the movement was superficial.

Here's today's

news from the OWS Movement:

Quote:

OAKLAND, Calif (Reuters) - Crews cleaned up Oakland's historic City Hall on Sunday from damage inflicted overnight during violent anti-Wall Street protests that resulted in about 400 arrests, marking one of the largest mass arrests since nationwide protests began last year.

At a press conference on Sunday, Oakland police and city officials said they did not have a final tally of arrests. Earlier in the day, the city's emergency operations office put the figure at around 400. The skirmishes injured three officers and at least one demonstrator.

Police said a group of protesters burned an American flag in front of City Hall, then entered the building and destroyed a vending machine, light fixtures and a historic scale model of the edifice. The city's 911 emergency system was overwhelmed during the disturbances.

"While City Hall sustained damage, we anticipate that all city offices will be open for regular business tomorrow," said Deanna Santana, Oakland city administrator...

Violence erupted again in Oakland on Saturday afternoon when protesters attempted to take over the apparently empty downtown convention center to establish a new headquarters and draw attention to the problem of homelessness.

Police in riot gear moved in to drive back the crowd, which they estimated at about 500 protesters.

BOTTLES, METAL PIPE

"Officers were pelted with bottles, metal pipe, rocks, spray cans, improvised explosive devices and burning flares," the Oakland Police Department said in a statement. "The Oakland Police Department deployed smoke, tear gas and beanbag projectiles in response to this activity."

.....

As a church and as a people, SDAs shouldn't be associated with this kind of movement. My understanding of the New Testament makes it impossible for me to envision Jesus taking part in it or suggesting that His followers ought to get involved in it.

[phkrause]

John I do agree that we shouldn't get involved with violence or movements that are just interested in destroying. Having said that we should stand up for injustice's. I do agree with the movement but if it gets to where its really not accomplishing what it set out to do, than we have a chose to make.

[lazarus]

As a church and as a people, SDAs shouldn't be associated with this kind of movement. My understanding of the New Testament makes it impossible for me to envision Jesus taking part in it or suggesting that His followers ought to get involved in it.

Nice, good Christian people said the same to MLK too.

[John317]

...

Nice, good Christian people said the same to MLK too.

I don't see the OWS movement as being the same as the Civil Rights Movement of the 1950s and 60s.

[John317]

Nice, good Christian people said the same to MLK too.

Do think it would be helpful to the church, or that Christ wants the SDA church, to get involved in the kind of actions described in the news accounts?

Quote:

OAKLAND, Calif (Reuters) - Crews cleaned up Oakland's historic City Hall on Sunday from damage inflicted overnight during violent anti-Wall Street protests that resulted in about 400 arrests, marking one of the largest mass arrests since nationwide protests began last year.

At a press conference on Sunday, Oakland police and city officials said they did not have a final tally of arrests. Earlier in the day, the city's emergency operations office put the figure at around 400. The skirmishes injured three officers and at least one demonstrator.

Police said a group of protesters burned an American flag in front of City Hall, then entered the building and destroyed a vending machine, light fixtures and a historic scale model of the edifice. The city's 911 emergency system was overwhelmed during the disturbances.

"While City Hall sustained damage, we anticipate that all city offices will be open for regular business tomorrow," said Deanna Santana, Oakland city administrator...

Violence erupted again in Oakland on Saturday afternoon when protesters attempted to take over the apparently empty downtown convention center to establish a new headquarters and draw attention to the problem of homelessness.

Police in riot gear moved in to drive back the crowd, which they estimated at about 500 protesters.

BOTTLES, METAL PIPE

"Officers were pelted with bottles, metal pipe, rocks, spray cans, improvised explosive devices and burning flares," the Oakland Police Department said in a statement. "The Oakland Police Department deployed smoke, tear gas and beanbag projectiles in response to this activity."

.....

What evidence do you find in either the Bible or in the SoP that Christ wants the SDA church to take part in the OWS movement?

[John317]

... we should stand up for injustice's. I do agree with the movement...

The OWS Movement is itself committing many injustices.

[lazarus]

Originally Posted By: lazarus

...

Nice, good Christian people said the same to MLK too.

I don't see the OWS movement as being the same as the Civil Rights Movement of the 1950s and 60s.

I didn't say that the OWS movement is the same as the civil rights movement. To suggest they are the same would to be to misunderstand both movements.

Quote:

Do think it would be helpful to the church, or that Christ wants the SDA church, to get involved in the kind of actions described in the news accounts?

To suggest that the actions in Oakland "are" the OWS movement is simplistic.

Clergymen in Alabama wrote an open letter calling for Law and Order and common sense after the disturbances in Birmingham Alabama. I'm sure they did not see his demonstrations as helpful to the church of the cause of Christ. The men who signed the letter were all respectable, well established, Bishops, Rabbi's and Pastors.

[lazarus]

What evidence do you find in either the Bible

The Bible is replete with scriptures that speak to the need for justice. Here's one simple example.

"No, this is the kind of fasting I want: Free those who are wrongly imprisoned; lighten the burden of those who work for you. Let the oppressed go free, and remove the chains that bind people.

Is 58:6

Is 58 speaks to more issues than the Sabbath.

Amos 5:24, Is 1:17, Jer 22:3, Mic 6:8, Prov 31;9

The SDA church clearly missed the call of Christ when it came to the civil rights movement. He had to use the sheep in other folds to get things done.

[olger]

I'm interested in seeing who is paying these precious snowflakes.