Should we show an interest in the OWS movement?

[miz3]

I believe that American Republican form of Gov with a free market (that is regulated to the smallest possible degree without letting the free market run wild and evil unchecked) is the best way to minimize the horrors of poverty, hunger, and/or disease.

[Aliensanctuary]

Unfortunately, the greedy people who hoard and control the wealth think they deserve it. They have to make a buck, even off of the poorest of the poor. Too bad for the wealthy, that they're goats and not sheep.

[miz3]

I believe the more "central planning" (strong central gov) the greater the problems of poverty, hunger, and/or disease will grow and run rampant. In addition such a strong "central planning" forms of gov always reduces individual freedom and also reduces individual responsibility both of which are absolutely necessary for the success, the peace, and the tranquility of the group (nation).

[Overaged]

Too bad for the wealthy, that they're goats and not sheep.

This is clearly wrong. I often work for wealthy people, and many of them are not anything like this.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Again this is a myth. We know that the poor migrate to those states that provide for them and without central guidance good programs are shut down from being overloaded.

This is a complex problem that requires smart intervention, not simplistic campaign slogans.

I don't know what you are smokin' or where you get such cockamamie views of history.

Your complex arguments and insightful commentary on history are irreducible.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Again this is a myth. We know that the poor migrate to those states that provide for them and without central guidance good programs are shut down from being overloaded.

This is a complex problem that requires smart intervention, not simplistic campaign slogans.

I don't know what you are smokin' or where you get such cockamamie views of history.

[Gerr]

miz3:

I don't know what you are smokin' or where you get such cockamamie views of history.

Your complex arguments and insightful commentary on history are irreducible.

[ClubV12]

Food fight? :)

[cardw]

I am happy to enlighten you as to the true FACTS. Call on me anytime.

I'll put you on my call list right after Ghost Busters.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

I am happy to enlighten you as to the true FACTS. Call on me anytime.

I'll put you on my call list right after Ghost Busters.

Thanks.

[fccool]

Quote:

2. Study some history about the great philanthropists in free markets and in America from the general public. We are the most giving people and Nation the World has ever seen without the Feds gumming up the works by taking our hard earned money and squandering it on their cronies by the grossest of corruptions.

That's a moral semantics we are talking about. The most giving people in general derives from the excess of the system. People in excess have more to give. To a person who makes $4000/month is very easy to give $5 to a person who makes that much in a year.

The disparity that was created by global financial system creates the illusion of generosity, while in fact America today is the most indebted nation on the planet and lives solely due to established dominance of the dollar currency against which the rest of the currencies float.

Quote:

3. You got to be kidding about the last ten years. It is these last ten years, actually the last 20 years, that are the poster child of how the Feds with their corrupt cronies in the business world, the socialist operations, the labor unions, etc. that have been the reason we are where we are. It is also this very evidence that demonstrates the wrongness and unreasonableness of your position. (done mostly by the Dem Party, although the Repubs Party were also willing accomplices as Presidents and Congresses).

You have a rather idealistic views, which make very hard to point anything out or show the evidence.

Historically, there were two movements in the US as a nation. There were federalists, and separatists. The separatists wanted the individual states to retain their individual control. The federalists won with opposite effect.

These were the founding Fathers of the nation that you call "The Fed". They created a unified governmental oversight in form of a fedaral government that was instituted via Constitution.

Essentially they took the powers of a king and split it into 3 branches. Yet, they still created a totalitarian system when you understand what totalitarian system is. Anotherwords, if a person does not like something, the only choice is to try and elect the official that would try to improve something that he does not like. That's called pluralism, or statism. The idea that state has authority to research, understand and dictate the societal laws and norms.

The opposite of this system is tribalism, which acts as a community enforcement of the same laws through established principles of the society of connected individuals.

Neither one is inherently "good" or "bad". Good and bad in this case is a matter of social perspective.

For example, one may consider it good to invade and destabilize the Iraq through bombing and cost of 100s of thousands of civilian deaths. Most Iraquis would disagree with that.

The point being, when you consider any statist system, then individuality dissipates. Once again, it's neither good or bad. It just is. It can have "negative" and "positive" effects. But what Idealists do is generally overlook the positive and emphasize the negatives, and vice versa.

This is what you are doing, while calling people misinformed and ignorant.

[miz3]

Quote:

2. Study some history about the great philanthropists in free markets and in America from the general public. We are the most giving people and Nation the World has ever seen without the Feds gumming up the works by taking our hard earned money and squandering it on their cronies by the grossest of corruptions.

That's a moral semantics we are talking about. The most giving people in general derives from the excess of the system. People in excess have more to give. To a person who makes $4000/month is very easy to give $5 to a person who makes that much in a year.

The disparity that was created by global financial system creates the illusion of generosity, while in fact America today is the most indebted nation on the planet and lives solely due to established dominance of the dollar currency against which the rest of the currencies float.

Quote:

3. You got to be kidding about the last ten years. It is these last ten years, actually the last 20 years, that are the poster child of how the Feds with their corrupt cronies in the business world, the socialist operations, the labor unions, etc. that have been the reason we are where we are. It is also this very evidence that demonstrates the wrongness and unreasonableness of your position. (done mostly by the Dem Party, although the Repubs Party were also willing accomplices as Presidents and Congresses).

You have a rather idealistic views, which make very hard to point anything out or show the evidence.

Historically, there were two movements in the US as a nation. There were federalists, and separatists. The separatists wanted the individual states to retain their individual control. The federalists won with opposite effect.

These were the founding Fathers of the nation that you call "The Fed". They created a unified governmental oversight in form of a fedaral government that was instituted via Constitution.

Essentially they took the powers of a king and split it into 3 branches. Yet, they still created a totalitarian system when you understand what totalitarian system is. Anotherwords, if a person does not like something, the only choice is to try and elect the official that would try to improve something that he does not like. That's called pluralism, or statism. The idea that state has authority to research, understand and dictate the societal laws and norms.

The opposite of this system is tribalism, which acts as a community enforcement of the same laws through established principles of the society of connected individuals.

Neither one is inherently "good" or "bad". Good and bad in this case is a matter of social perspective.

For example, one may consider it good to invade and destabilize the Iraq through bombing and cost of 100s of thousands of civilian deaths. Most Iraquis would disagree with that.

The point being, when you consider any statist system, then individuality dissipates. Once again, it's neither good or bad. It just is. It can have "negative" and "positive" effects. But what Idealists do is generally overlook the positive and emphasize the negatives, and vice versa.

This is what you are doing, while calling people misinformed and ignorant.

Uninformed jibberish.

[Bravus]

Stan, is a new moderator going to be appointed for Town Hall? Looks like we need one...

[cardw]

Uninformed jibberish.

Considering the frequency that things sound like gibberish to you, it appears one doesn't have to raise the bar very high.

[ClubV12]

Ha Ha Ha,,, oh, now THAT was funny Cardw, I'm still chuckling.

[John317]

ATLANTA – Dr. Alveda King, director of African-American Outreach for Priests for Life and founder of King for America, said the Occupy Wall Street movement must embrace prayer and disavow violence if it hopes to emulate the 20th century Civil Rights Movement.

“The whole Civil Rights movement was founded in prayer, in crying out to God in peace,” Dr. King said today during an interview on “Fox & Friends.” “This movement is not peaceful,” she said of Occupy Wall Street.

Dr. King, the niece of Rev. Dr. Martin King Jr., was invited on the show to discuss comments made by Rev. Jesse Jackson last week in Atlanta, comparing the two movements and insisting that Martin Luther King would have supported Occupy Wall Street.

“Rev. Jackson knows this is not the model my uncle upheld, or that my father, Rev. A.D. King, upheld,” she said. “The people who came out are hurting, they need answers. They need help, not to be incited to violence. They need a leader who is going to lead them peacefully.

Calling him “a civil wrong leader on this point,” Dr. King said, “Rev. Jackson needs to revisit his 20th century history.”

Source:

http://www.priestsforlife.org/africaname...y-from-violence

[John317]

Occupy Protests Plagued by Reports of Sex Attacks, Violent Crime

By Perry Chiaramonte

A rash of reports of sexual assaults at Occupy Wall Street protests across the country has both police and activists raising red flags.

Nearly a half-dozen assaults have been reported at Occupy camps, including three at the New York City protests, which have prompted protesters to set up a “women only” tent in Manhattan's Zuccotti Park to provide a safe haven.

“The concern would be the rapes and attacks that aren’t reported,” said Sgt. Ed Mullins, president of the Sergeants Benevolent Association, a police union in New York City. “We have no way of really knowing. If you have three or five crimes reported, you really don’t know if it’s eight or 10 that happened.”

He also noted how young many of the protesters are.

"They are in the lion’s den, so it’s not surprising that they are more susceptible to crimes,” he said.

The first reported incident occurred on Oct. 8, when a man was accused of sexually abusing a woman who was in a sleeping bag at Zuccotti Park. The victim did not report the incident until a few days later, when she saw the suspect, David Park, 27, at the protest site again.

Park, a Connecticut resident, had been arrested for disorderly conduct at a previous march, and he had numerous warrants out for him in both New York and his home state before the protests began.

Another incident was reported last week when a Brooklyn man, Tonye Iketubosin, 26, was arrested for allegedly sexually assaulting a woman in her tent at Zuccotti Park on Oct. 25.

Iketubosin, a volunteer at the Occupy Wall Street “kitchen,” was questioned about the alleged rape of a second woman on Oct. 29.

Reports of sexual abuse also surfaced in Dallas, where a 23-year-old man was accused of having sex with a 14-year-old runaway girl, and in Cleveland, where cops opened an investigation of a sexual assault that allegedly occurred on Oct. 15.

Organizers for Occupy Wall Street did not return messages seeking comment, but they released a lengthy statement addressed to the participants.

“As individuals and as a community, we have the responsibility and the opportunity to create an alternative to this culture of violence,” the statement reads. “We are working for an OWS and a world in which survivors are respected and supported unconditionally… We are redoubling our efforts to raise awareness about sexual violence. This includes taking preventative measures such as encouraging healthy relationship dynamics and consent practices that can help to limit harm.”

The incidents of sex crimes, reports of petty theft, assaults and general outbursts of violence have sprung up not only around Wall Street, but in Occupy camps across the country.

And many of the protesters have become more aggressive overall in recent days.

The most serious incident was reported in downtown Portland last night -- cops responded to calls of a Molotov cocktail being set off near the city's World Trade Center. Authorities had received unconfirmed information a week earlier that people within the Occupy Portland encampment were constructing the crudely made bomb, which is normally fashioned from a glass bottle filled with gas and a soaked rag or cloth sticking out of the opening as a wick.

At the site of the Occupy San Diego camp, street cart vendors were forced to close up shop Monday when protesters, angry that they stopped receiving free food, ransacked and vandalized the carts.

The angry mob not only scrawled graffiti on the carts, they reportedly splattered them with blood and urine as well.

In addition, the vendors received death threats, according to local radio station KNX 1070.

Last weekend, a man was walking through Zuccotti Park taking pictures of the Occupiers' camp when an unidentified man approached him and struck him in the face, leaving his victim with a laceration to the face, according to law enforcement reports.

Also in lower Manhattan, a business owner made claims that she has been terrorized and her well-being threatened by Occupiers after she prohibited them from using her store's restroom to bathe.

Stacey Tzortzatos, owner of Panini and Co., located across from Zuccotti Park, got fed up two weeks ago when demonstrators broke a bathroom sink causing flooding in the shop and leaving her with a bill of $3,000 in damages, according to the New York Post.

In Boston, homeless protesters were removed from Dewey Square after they were discovered to have knives and stashes of illegal drugs.

“Paralysis is occurring across law enforcement. It’s becoming a Catch 22,” Mullins said. Referring to the protests in New York, he said, “To go in there to clear the park is going to cause confrontation. To not do so is detrimental.”

Source: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/09/rash-sex-attacks-and-violent-crime-breaks-out-at-occupy-protests/?icid=maing-grid7%7Caim%7Cdl5%7Csec1_lnk2%7C111090

[fccool]

Quote:

ATLANTA – Dr. Alveda King, director of African-American Outreach for Priests for Life and founder of King for America, said the Occupy Wall Street movement must embrace prayer and disavow violence if it hopes to emulate the 20th century Civil Rights Movement.

This movement does not have a centralized direction like she expects it to have. It's merely people making a statement. You can't judge the peacefulness of the movement by few that are not.

If you take this movement as a whole, this movement is much more peaceful than say, tea party movement, which has members that are much more radical.

[John317]

If you take this movement as a whole, this movement is much more peaceful than say, tea party movement, which has members that are much more radical.

Where have you ever had riots by the Tea Party Movement as you've seen by the OWS?

Here's one newspaper report:

Quote:

At the site of the Occupy San Diego camp, street cart vendors were forced to close up shop Monday when protesters, angry that they stopped receiving free food, ransacked and vandalized the carts.

The angry mob not only scrawled graffiti on the carts, they reportedly splattered them with blood and urine as well.

In addition, the vendors received death threats, according to local radio station KNX 1070.

Last weekend, a man was walking through Zuccotti Park taking pictures of the Occupiers' camp when an unidentified man approached him and struck him in the face, leaving his victim with a laceration to the face, according to law enforcement reports.

Also in lower Manhattan, a business owner made claims that she has been terrorized and her well-being threatened by Occupiers after she prohibited them from using her store's restroom to bathe.

Stacey Tzortzatos, owner of Panini and Co., located across from Zuccotti Park, got fed up two weeks ago when demonstrators broke a bathroom sink causing flooding in the shop and leaving her with a bill of $3,000 in damages, according to the New York Post.

[phkrause]

I have to agree John, even though I think there hearts are in the right place there are many others that are just there because they have nothing better to do, and they like to riot.

[Gerr]

That's a moral semantics we are talking about. The most giving people in general derives from the excess of the system. People in excess have more to give. To a person who makes $4000/month is very easy to give $5 to a person who makes that much in a year.

My experience during Ingathering was that we got more from poorer neighborhoods than from the more well-to-do.

[phkrause]

Yes I agree, we had that same situation in NY. Actually the Hispanic neighborhoods gave the most.

[John317]

California protesters told to leave after shooting

By Stephanie Rice | AFP – Fri, Nov 11, 2011...

Police ordered anti-capitalist protesters in California to abandon their camp Friday after a fatal shooting, at least the fourth death this week in anti-Wall Street camps across the US.

The mayor of Oakland -- where violence has flared in recent weeks, at one point shutting one of America's biggest ports -- urged campers "to leave voluntarily" while police said they should disperse immediately.

Deaths have also been reported in or near protest centers in Vermont, New Orleans and Salt Lake City, while police in Oregon have warned they will break up a camp in Portland this weekend.

In Oakland a man was shot Thursday at the edge of the camp, apparently after a dispute, although the Los Angeles Times reported that Oakland Police Department indicated the victim may not have been part of the protest movement.

The protesters are part of the Occupy Wall Street movement that sprang up in New York in September, then spread to cities nationwide, to demonstrate against perceived unfairness in the US economy and the power of big banks.

Clashes first erupted in the Californian city in October, leaving an Iraq veteran hospitalized, while protesters forced the busy international docks to close for 24 hours on November 2.

Thursday's shooting occurred just as Occupy Oakland was celebrating the camp's one-month "birthday" -- turning the event into a candlelight vigil, amid renewed calls from critics for protesters to leave the downtown plaza.

"You have sent the world a strong message; now it is time to go home," said the Oakland Police Officers Association, while Mayor Jean Quan added: "The risks are too great... We're encouraging people to leave voluntarily."

Meanwhile a man was found dead Thursday in his tent at a protest camp in Burlington, Vermont, from what appeared to be self-inflicted gunshot wounds, according to police citing preliminary reports.

Tensions rose when armed police ordered protesters out while investigations unfolded. Local media footage showed the city's mayor intervening to ask that police release a demonstrator they had detained.

"We believe the tents will need to be removed to ensure the safety of those involved in the protest, the public, and our law enforcement officers," said local police chief Michael E. Schirling.

In Utah, Salt Lake City police ordered protesters to vacate their camps after a man died overnight, apparently from a combination of carbon monoxide poisoning and a drug overdose, according to the Salt Lake City Tribune.

Drug paraphernalia and a propane heater were retrieved from the victim's tent, it reported.

And in Louisiana, a dead man was found Tuesday in his tent at the Occupy New Orleans encampment across from City Hall, the protesters' website said.

Local news reports quoted the coroner's office saying the 53-year-old man, showing no signs of trauma, appeared to have been dead for at least two days before he was discovered.

In Oregon, Portland mayor Sam Adams warned anti-Wall Street protesters that police will take action if five-week old camping areas are not cleared by midnight Saturday (0800 GMT Sunday).

"Portland police are carefully preparing for this closure, and share my goal for an orderly and peaceful closure to the camps. I want to make it clear that this action is not an action against the Occupy Portland movement," he said.

"It is my sincere hope that the movement .. will flourish in its next phase -- a phase where we can focus all of our energies on economic and social justice, not on port-a-potties and tents," he added in a statement.

[inquisitivebird]

I'm curious what anyone here thinks of what Glenn Beck has to say about OWS... I found this program very interesting and think this man needs a Great Controversy. I think he would perhaps accept Adventism. Just some thoughts. Care to share yours?

http://web.gbtv.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=19948639

[phkrause]

I'm curious what anyone here thinks of what Glenn Beck has to say about OWS... I found this program very interesting and think this man needs a Great Controversy. I think he would perhaps accept Adventism. Just some thoughts. Care to share yours?

http://web.gbtv.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=19948639

I don't disagree with GB, its the way he presents his info. Just the first few words out of his mouth: "what the media (which by the way he is one of) has left out, will fill many volumes of history books." Personally I'd be supprized if its even a blip in history many years from now.