TED on Women in Leadership

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Read my post on Huldah and Deborah two OT woman pastors.

Where does it say they were pastors miz3?

They were judges/prophets/pastors just like Samuel. Hmmm!

That made them Leaders of ALL OF GOD'S PEOPLE in Israel.

They were Pastors/Administers/Leaders ministering to the PEOPLE OF GOD.

These two women were placed in charge over all the men of Israel. The very position you say God does not do. It was God who placed these two women over ALL THE MEN OF ISRAEL.

It does not matter what the "label" you put on it, it is clearly true that these two women were placed in Authority over ALL THE MEN OF ISRAEL.

Are you really going to quibble over a particular label rather than the concept that you asserted was given with your failed "Edict in Eden".

[miz3]

I did read your explanation and it did not make any sense.

I believe others responded to it and pointed out the flaws in your logic.

But to your credit, at least you are trying to make a biblical case.

Of course it did not make sense to you because you don't seem to understand Scripture. There is no logic to understand. There is only plain FACTS.

[miz3]

Equality of leadership in the home and church is a secular ideal promoted through feminism CV.

You will not find it in the Bible, because it is a direct attack on Gods Edict in Eden.

Twilight, Hulda, Deborah, and Ellen White were all women who God placed over all the men that were their contemporaries.

Such FACTS put the lie to your false view of the "Edict of Eden".

Your view is not Biblical.

What are you afraid of? It seems like you are threatened as a man of women who are leaders.

The Bible says that "perfect love casts out fear". Maybe there is a need to spend more time asking God to overcome this fear toward women as leaders. I hope that you will do this.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

Bishop, bishop....since when did the SDA church have Bishops and priests???

...Come on, don't use the excuse that bishop means pastor, mankind adding definitions.

If people are going to stick to obvious cultural circumstances for 'no women' then we should stick by 'bishops'!!

Elders, pastors, and bishops were the names given to the leaders of the local churches in the first century. "Priests" came much later when heresy began to creep into the church. In those times, "elders" did the work of church ministers and pastors.

The fact that church officers had different names doesn't affect the principle that men were the primary leaders and that the Holy Spirit instructed Paul to write as he did in 1 Cor. 11, 14 and 1 Tim. 2.

Paul's explanation for his instructions show that he wasn't attributing them to cultural circumstances.

Remember that Paul pointed to the events that took place in Eden.

Why did Paul do this? What does the fact that Adam was created first have to do with who is the leader in the home and the church? What does it matter that Eve was deceived and Adam was not? What difference does it make that the husband is the head of the wife?

What do you think?

John317, you and Twilight keep wanting to insert the Church in your "Edict in Eden" and the Bible, Genesis Chapter Three says something about the Home but says absolutely nothing about the Church.

Adding things to the Word of God is a big no, no.

So why keep wanting to add to God's Word?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

You still have a problem Twilight. Your "Edict in Eden" covers only the home but does not cover anywhere else.

What you are failing to consider is the close relationship between what happens in the church and what happens in the home. How could women's leadership in the church NOT affect the leadership in the home? That would be impossible. The two go together, just as the Bible shows. That is why the Bible has men as the leaders in both the home and in the church.

Just your wrong assertions. There is absolutely no Biblical evidence that this is true.

The Bible does not agree with what you have posted.

[Overaged]

Quote:

Women constitute only a small percentage of Seventh-day Adventist pastors.

Problem is Overaged - instead of just a small percentage - there must be a majority to properly represent our church population.

Actually; what you have just said here is leading me pretty close to that question I had mentioned earlier this morning that I was thinking of broaching here.

I am not sure where in the Bible it mentions "majority" of anything is needed for ordained pastors. "Properly representing" our church population is implied by several things in the Bible; none of which have anything to do with minority or majority, or race or culture or any such thing. I know you are thinking that we as a Church need to be fair, and Biblical; but it may be that we each respectively see those Biblical boundaries & guidelines a bit differently. (and that's OK). I like the fact that you want to make sure women don't get the old male chauvinist boot. That is a GOOD thing.

To me; both sides of this issue have lost the correct focus. And that's why we see all the fireworks in any forum topics related to ordination.

My question is coming. LOL; just need a little more time.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Read my post on Huldah and Deborah two OT woman pastors.

Miz3, Huldah and Deborah were not pastors; Deborah was a judge, the only female Judge in the Old Testament; and Huldah was a prophet. Both were raised up directly by God; they were not selected by humans.

Also notice that their work was significantly different from the male Judges and the male prophets. For instance, Deborah sat under a tree and let the people come to her in private. She didn't lead the men in battle-- in fact, she refused to do that.

The Bible does not say that their (Hulda, Deborah) work was "different" from Samuel's work.

Such statements are made by those opposed to women leaders not wanting to accept the FACT that God and the Bible are perfectly fine with women as leaders of God's People and perfectly fine with women as leaders in God's Church.

Why do make stuff like this up? Your statement is not true that their work was different. I find it impossible to respect anyone who makes things up simply to win an argument.

Please give Book, Chapter and Verse that says Huldah's work as full fledged Judge, was different than the work of Samuel as full fledged Judge.

[miz3]

I for one favor women being elders and/or pastors. I do not agree with miz3's statement. I have not seen one angry statement from those who disagree with WO, but have seen many uncalled statements from those in favor of WO. I think that's pretty interesting.

You must have missed a certain anti-WO person's outrageous tirade against women in general back some pages ago on this very thread.

[Woody]

Overaged : I think you have the wrong focus.

In order to accomplish our mission to all peoples - we NEED - to have those who can meet the needs and inspire all the world. If I might follow your line of reasoning to an extreme :

You seem to be saying that just because there are thousands of Peruvians doesn't mean that we need any Peruvian pastors. After all the Americans and Canadians can preach to them. OR - is it just that you don't care to address gender issues. Perhaps the Peruvian issues you are willing to address - but don't dare mention gender issues. After all - A MAN can tell those women what to do.

Am I very far off base? Do you realize the unBiblical tract of this?

[Woody]

Overaged : I think you have the wrong focus.

In order to accomplish our mission to all peoples - we NEED - to have those who can meet the needs and inspire all the world. If I might follow your line of reasoning to an extreme :

You seem to be saying that just because there are thousands of Peruvians doesn't mean that we need any Peruvian pastors. After all the Americans and Canadians can preach to them. OR - is it just that you don't care to address gender issues. Perhaps the Peruvian issues you are willing to address - but don't dare mention gender issues. After all - A MAN can tell those women what to do.

Am I very far off base? Do you realize the unBiblical tract of this?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Overaged : I think you have the wrong focus.

In order to accomplish our mission to all peoples - we NEED - to have those who can meet the needs and inspire all the world. If I might follow your line of reasoning to an extreme :

You seem to be saying that just because there are thousands of Peruvians doesn't mean that we need any Peruvian pastors. After all the Americans and Canadians can preach to them. OR - is it just that you don't care to address gender issues. Perhaps the Peruvian issues you are willing to address - but don't dare mention gender issues. After all - A MAN can tell those women what to do.

Am I very far off base? Do you realize the unBiblical tract of this?

Good Thought Woody - Regarding the thought of having men tell women what to do - Our prophet rejected that in her own life. When James starting being domineering our prophet cited "irreconcilable differences" and started living apart from him.

Notice this that our prophet demanded equality. She was the first SDA equal rights protester.

Quote:

When you have a message from the Lord from me, I hope I shall be where I shall tremble at His word. But aside from that, you must let me be an equal, or we had better work alone. . . . Don’t be anxious about my dwelling on disagreeables anymore. I have them in my heart. But while on the stage of action I shall use the good old head God gave me until He reveals that I am wrong. Your head won’t fit my shoulders. Keep it where it belongs, and I will try to honor God in using my own. I shall be glad to hear from you, but don’t waste your precious time and strength lecturing me on matters of mere opinions (Wheeler, 222).

I first came across this issue between EGW and James when I took a class at Andrews from George Knight. Rather enlightening to me personally.

Brilliant! Stunning in its clearness and truthfulness.

Now the Baby should rest and we should get on with Ordaining Women the same as we ordain men. Women should lead in the exact same way as men lead.

The Prophet has spoken.

[Woody]

Quote:

The Prophet has spoken.

Yes. And in rather clear and forceful terms wouldn't you say?

I would say that EGW was a real pioneer in Womens Rights.

[Overaged]

Well; you are quite far off base my friend. But it doesn't matter to me to be honest. I don't need to win this one for any reason.

What I am saying is that this ordination issue has two sides to it, and that BOTH sides have lost the correct focus.

We need to adopt the third side to this issue If we did, there would be no more fighting over who "deserves" to be an ordained pastor.

[miz3]

Quote:

The Prophet has spoken.

Yes. And in rather clear and forceful terms wouldn't you say?

I would say that EGW was a real pioneer in Womens Rights.

Absolutely!

[miz3]

Well; you are quite far off base my friend. But it doesn't matter to me to be honest. I don't need to win this one for any reason.

What I am saying is that this ordination issue has two sides to it, and that BOTH sides have lost the correct focus.

We need to adopt the third side to this issue If we did, there would be no more fighting over who "deserves" to be an ordained pastor.

We would love to hear your third side.

[Woody]

Well speak up Overaged. Share the solution with us. You seem to have an idea - so bring it forth and tell us where we have errored.

[Woody]

Quote:

We would love to hear your third side.

Yes. I agree. A third side would be great to hear about.

[Bravus]

I think the third side is what some of us posted in the Shoutbox: not men nor women ruling, but partnership.

[Overaged]

I think the third side is what some of us posted in the Shoutbox: not men nor women ruling, but partnership.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

I think the third side is what some of us posted in the Shoutbox: not men nor women ruling, but partnership.

Is Christ and His Bride in equal partnership?

No...

And Marriage and the relationship between men and women is an object lesson of that relationship between Christ and His Church.

Remove Gods structure and order in marriage and you have ruined that object lesson.

And not helped women face one of their fundamental sins.

That of taking control of things and not trusting in Gods leadership, including the leadership of men that He ordained.

And that has not even been considered by some it seems.

Men as leaders in the Home and Church has been ordained by God.

For me to accept this "new order" of things, that clearly comes from secular ideologies (we have established it is not in the bible quite clearly to those that are willing to see), means rejecting Gods order of things.

Why would I do that?

[Tom Wetmore]

This topic is now reopened for discussion with the expectation that this topic will continue with mutual respect and civility.

I would like to revisit a post to which I was surprised to receive no reaction.

Nowhere in the policy does it associate ordination with authority.

Here is what it actually says:

Quote:

L 40 Ordained to World Church

Workers who are ordained to the gospel ministry are set apart to serve the world Church, primarily as pastors and preachers of the Word, and are subject to the direction of the Church in regard to the type of ministry and their place of service. It should therefore be understood by those accepting ordination and who are engaged in specialized ministries such as administration, teaching, and departmental leadership, that they may be reassigned by the church to pastoral, preaching and evangelistic duties.

It is ordination to serve.

Here is a radical idea. I believe that this particular policy is wrong and unBiblical. It continues to be used as a convenient pretext to avoid actually confronting the real issues. And it is not even reflected in the role and function of the vast majority of ordained pastors who serve their entire career locally within the territory of their original calling. Only a comparatively few are further called to serve in another part of the world. It is similar to the misconception that it is about leadership or authority in the world church or even at the local conference level. The vast majority of pastors do not get called to such leadership roles.

This is just one example of approaching this whole issue from the wrong direction and by starting with the wrong presuppositions. Doing so will lead in the wrong direction and end up with the wrong conclusion because of it.

[Woody]

Quote:

Men as leaders in the Home and Church has been ordained by God.

For me to accept this "new order" of things, that clearly comes from secular ideologies (we have established it is not in the bible quite clearly to those that are willing to see), means rejecting Gods order of things.

The Truth as has been demonstrated here over and over again is:

For me to accept this "putting women in their place" idea , that clearly comes from secular ideologies (we have established it is not in the bible quite clearly to those that are willing to see), means rejecting Gods order of things as clearly outlined in the New Testament.

[doug yowell]

Hulda, Deborah, and Ellen White were all women who God placed over all the men that were their contemporaries.

Such FACTS put the lie to your false view of the "Edict of Eden".

So you admit that it was God Himself who appointed Ellen White to her prophetic role?

[doug yowell]

Twilight, Hulda, Deborah, and Ellen White were all women who God placed over all the men that were their contemporaries.

Such FACTS put the lie to your false view of the "Edict of Eden".

.

Since facts are of such importance in this discussion perhaps you could explain exactly how the prophetess Huldah was placed over all the contemporary male prophets, priests,princes,and kings of her day.Next you might explain why Deborah, as appointed leader of Israel,needed to enlist the help of a man in order to get Israel out of the trouble they were in?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Hulda, Deborah, and Ellen White were all women who God placed over all the men that were their contemporaries.

Such FACTS put the lie to your false view of the "Edict of Eden".

So you admit that it was God Himself who appointed Ellen White to her prophetic role?

I do not reject Ellen White's ministry. I applaud it. Without her the SDA Church .org would be kaput.

The SDA Church .org's (and all those individuals that are conguent with it) problem is that it over estimates her God given task and makes it a fanatical distortion of what God intended.

It is [this] fanatical view of her that causes so many to disregard her legitimate ministry. Yes she did have a ministry as a woman that included having authority over every male person in the SDA Church .org. A position which [some] wish to deny all other SDA Women of having.