Who or what is the Stone in Daniel 2?

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

Hi Bert. :-)

How can the 10 toes be the ten horns?

The toes are the last thing on the statue, symbolising the last part of the kingdom.

Also, at the end there are 10 toes, not 7.

If you look at revelation, there are 10 kings that come right at the very end.

If you accept the chronology of the statue, then those 10 kings are very likely the ten toes.

Twilight II wrote; "The toes are the last thing on the statue, symbolising the last part of the kingdom.

Also, at the end there are 10 toes, not 7."

As was already pointed out, three of the kingdoms were eliminated according to three horns being plucked out. I understand the number ten get used more than once and the number seven gets used more than once in speaking about kingdoms, but the chronology of the metal image fits perfectly with "all" of Scripture. Daniel gives us the answer.

Also, the toes don't represent the "last part of the kingdom", but the division of the fourth beast, Rome. That division ended in ten countries that were cut to seven about the same time the little horn came into power. By 538 A.D. the seven countries to remain had all accepted the Roman Church over paganism, and not long after that the last of the three horns to be plucked out was eliminated.

So much fits together it will take an immense amount of Biblical explanation for it to be shown wrong. I don't believe that is possible in this case.

I know that it is the traditional Adventist view that the 10 toes are the 10 kingdoms of which 3 are uprooted.

But that is not chronological.

You are aware that 10 kings rise up in Revelation, right at the very end aren't you?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Bert

The 'Rock' that crushes the great image cannot be symbolic of Christ's first coming as a Babe, for His birth occurred during the period that the Roman Empire was in power, and remained in power for hundreds of years afterwards.

The 'ten toes' that symbolically represent the 'ten kingdoms' that arise after the demise of the Roman Empire are still in existence and are also symbolically represented by the 'ten horns (powers or kingdoms)' that come out of the head of the fourth beast of Daniel 7, which sees a 'little horn' arise that 'plucks out' three of the horns.

Hi Bert. :-)

How can the 10 toes be the ten horns?

The toes are the last thing on the statue, symbolising the last part of the kingdom.

Also, at the end there are 10 toes, not 7.

If you look at revelation, there are 10 kings that come right at the very end.

If you accept the chronology of the statue, then those 10 kings are very likely the ten toes.

[cheddar]

I think you have completely misconstrued the interpretation of Daniel 10. Daniel 10 recounts the encounter of Daniel with Gabriel as the angel Gabriel explains what will occur in the latter days. It is not a battle with another angel. The explanation by Gabriel in verse 13 to Daniel was to explain why it took so long for him to respond to the prayers and fasting by Daniel that is contained in Chapter 9 that took three weeks. The discourse with Persia by Gabriel is not explained, other than it occurred, and that the presence of Michael was needed to resolve the problem. Michael is doctrinally considered to be Jesus Christ, and there are some scriptures that seem to indicate such.

[cheddar]

Isa. 14:4 says; that you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say: "How the oppressor has ceased, The golden* city ceased!" (NKJV)

Isaiah 14 clearly mentions the king and the city. Nebuchadnezzar was mentioned in Daniel 2 because he was the king at that time. The city was the capitol of the Kingdom of Babylon. So, Babylon is the right answer.

I was referencing the entire chapter of Isaiah 14. In verse 4 the king of Babylon is introduced and then in verse 12 he is identified as Lucifer, son of the morning. So here is a place where the king of Babylon is a fallen angel not a fallen kingdom.

[John317]

Who or what is the Stone in Daniel 2?

Who or what is the Stone that strikes the image of Nebuchadnezzar's dream at the feet?

The Stone is Jesus Christ, specifically at His second coming.

It is not the church, either the Christian church or the SDA Church.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Alchemy

Who or what is the Stone in Daniel 2?

Who or what is the Stone that strikes the image of Nebuchadnezzar's dream at the feet?

The Stone is Jesus Christ, specifically at His second coming.

It is not the church, either the Christian church or the SDA Church.

You missed my posts that say different. The Bible also says different.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Alchemy

Who or what is the Stone in Daniel 2?

Who or what is the Stone that strikes the image of Nebuchadnezzar's dream at the feet?

The Stone is Jesus Christ, specifically at His second coming.

It is not the church, either the Christian church or the SDA Church.

Originally Posted By: miz3

You missed my posts that say different. The Bible also says different.

I didn't miss it; I am not persuaded by what you said.

The first coming of Christ did not establish the kingdom of God on the earth. Jesus denied that He had come to establish His kingdom. He said His kingdom was not of this earth.

The Roman Catholic Church teaches the same as you do on this point, but in this they are following church tradition, not the Bible.

Here's the prophecy"

Daniel 2:34-35

As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. [35] Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, all together were broken in pieces, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

....Daniel 2:44-45

And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever, [45] just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure."

Notice what happens when God sets up a kingdom:

1) It breaks in pieces the human kingdoms and brings them to an end.

2) It smashes those kingdoms in pieces and they are carried away by the wind.

3) Not a trace of those human kingdoms will be found.

4) The Stone that smashed the human kingdoms is not cut from the mountain by any human hand. Therefore the Stone is not the church, because the Church consists of human beings.

5) The Stone represents God's intervention into human history as we know it, bringing it to a sceaching halt.

6) There's only one thing that fulfills the characteristics of the Stone, and that is the coming of Christ in the clouds of glory.

When do these things occur?

Here are verses which describe the fulfilment of the prophecy:

2 Tim. 4:1

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Matthew 26:29

I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Matthew 25:31-34

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. [32] Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. [33] And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. [34] Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."

[phkrause]

That's my belief also John, and that's from back in the late 50s and early 60s. Our Jewish/SDA church pastor J.M. Hoffman used to do D&R seminars for the Jews and he used to say the same. There's no question in my mind that this is the correct thinking of this passage.

[jasd]

QR frame:

Read it and weep.

President Spencer W. Kimball: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was restored in 1830 after numerous revelations from the divine source; and this is the kingdom, set up by the God of heaven that would never be destroyed nor superseded, and the stone cut out of the mountain without hands that would become a great mountain and would fill the whole earth." (Ensign, May 1976, pp8-9)

A .org which tracked/paralleled the .Org from the early-to-mid nineteenth century ‘til now – with [/smile] a membership of between 13 and 14 million each – and prophets who were born a hundred miles from each other, as the crow flies..., what are the oddds?

Well, wha’dya know?

Oy! (Aw, c’mon, just bustin’ your chops - oh, and be nice about the LDSs)

[John317]

That was not coincidental.

Joseph Smith was killed in 1844.

For every truth that God has, the Devil creates a counterfeit.

Satan knew from the prophecies that it was about time for God to raise up His end-time church and restore the gift of prophecy, so he raised up false prophets, both a man and a woman. The woman was Mary Baker Eddy, born and died about the same time as Ellen G. White. Mary Eddy taught that Christ never actually died on the cross but was "meditating" in the tomb.

[miz3]

John317, here is the whole interpretation part of Daniel chapter two. Let us go over this.

"Then Daniel went to Arioch, whom the king had appointed to execute the wise men of Babylon, and said to him, “Do not execute the wise men of Babylon. Take me to the king, and I will interpret his dream for him.”

25 Arioch took Daniel to the king at once and said, “I have found a man among the exiles from Judah who can tell the king what his dream means.”

26 The king asked Daniel (also called Belteshazzar), “Are you able to tell me what I saw in my dream and interpret it?”

27 Daniel replied, “No wise man, enchanter, magician or diviner can explain to the king the mystery he has asked about, 28 but there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries. He has shown King Nebuchadnezzar what will happen in days to come. Your dream and the visions that passed through your mind as you lay on your bed are these:

29 “As you were lying there, O king, your mind turned to things to come, and the revealer of mysteries showed you what is going to happen. 30 As for me, this mystery has been revealed to me, not because I have greater wisdom than other living men, but so that you, O king, may know the interpretation and that you may understand what went through your mind.

31 “You looked, O king, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. 32 The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. 34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were broken to pieces at the same time and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

36 “This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. 37 You, O king, are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; 38 in your hands he has placed mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds of the air. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.

39 “After you, another kingdom will rise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. 40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. 41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.

44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. 45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces.

“The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and the interpretation is trustworthy.”

46 Then King Nebuchadnezzar fell prostrate before Daniel and paid him honor and ordered that an offering and incense be presented to him. 47 The king said to Daniel, “Surely your God is the God of gods and the Lord of kings and a revealer of mysteries, for you were able to reveal this mystery.”

48 Then the king placed Daniel in a high position and lavished many gifts on him. He made him ruler over the entire province of Babylon and placed him in charge of all its wise men. 49 Moreover, at Daniel’s request the king appointed Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego administrators over the province of Babylon, while Daniel himself remained at the royal court."

Daniel 2:24-49.

In verses 24 to 35 Daniel reiterates the Dream of Nebuchadnezzar. Beginning with verse thirty-six Daniel interprets the Dream.

1. Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon are the Head of Gold. (37-38).

2. Next an inferior kingdom will come after Babylon (39).

We know this kingdom to be Media-Persia.

3. Next a third kingdom will rule. (39).

We know this kingdom to be Greece.

4. Finally, there was a fourth kingdom. (40).

Notice the word "Finally is used in regard to the fourth kingdom. That means no more kingdoms or powers will come after the Fourth kingdom.

We know this Fourth kingdom to be Rome. That means in plain language John317 that there is nothing to come after Rome. Rome is the Final kingdom.

Thus, the Final kingdom, Rome, is the thighs, feet, and toes. There is not separation of these body parts. They are all Rome.

You add to Word of God if you say the feet/toes are some other power that comes after Rome. You are then putting your human preconceived notions into your interpretations of the Plain Word of God.

Is that what you want to do, John317? It is not a matter of disagreeing with me (as you state in your post). It is a matter of disagreeing with the very plain language and Word of God. Again, John317, I ask, Is that what you want to do?

4. Verse forty-one says that this Roman kingdom is definitely part of the kingdom of the thighs and feet. The toes are not some separate power that comes after the Roman kingdom. The toes are the Roman kingdom just as the thighs/feet are the Roman kingdom. All three body parts are the same kingdom is what the plain Word of God, the Bible, says is Rome.

Why do you want to say something different from the Plain Word of God? Why do you want to insert your own human version of the text when God has spoken so plainly?

Must be that you get your view from some other source rather than reading the Bible for what it actually says.

5. Verses forty-two to forty-three state that this Roman kingdom, not some future other new entity, will be partly week and partly strong. It further says that these same Roman people will be mixture and not remain together (43). That is exactly what happened to the Roman Empire and only the Roman Empire.

The Bible is very plain that this is only the Roman Empire. It is not some future entity coming from the Roman ruins. Read it John317 it is plain simple language even an elementary student could see. (assuming the education has some reasonable credibility, not always true in the US as we speak).

6. Next it says in very plain language, "in the time (days) of these kings" (44). What time, what kings?

Again any average reasonable person would naturally say, "the time, days, of the kings of the Roman Empire and only the Roman Empire. It does NOT say some kings that come out of some small off-shoot of the Roman Empire ruins.

It clearly says that the kings are the ones that rule the Roman Empire and only the Roman Empire. This is the only reasonable conclusion Scripture gives in verse forty-four.

7. It is in the "time of these Roman Empire kings" that the "God of heaven will set up his Kingdom which shall last forever".

That means the Kingdom of God is already existent. It says during the Roman Empire, and only the Roman Empire, that the God of Heaven will set up a Kingdom that will never be destroyed (44).

8. This establishment of God's Kingdom is the Rock of verse forty-five cut out without hands that destroys all the kingdoms and establishes God's Kingdom.

It is clear that this Rock comes in the time of those kings of the Roman Empire.

What happened in the time of those kings? Jesus Christ came and did by His Life, His miracles, the Cross, and the Resurrection smashed all the kingdoms of the World and established the Kingdom of God forever.

9. Read the Gospels they talk all the time about Jesus Christ bringing the Kingdom of Heaven to earth. In fact Jesus Christ said that the Kingdom of Heaven was already existent (see Matthew 11:42; Matthew 13:11).

There is more if you do a word search of the Gospels on the Kingdom of Heaven.

Thus, the Kingdom of Heaven is not some future event (like the Second Coming) because it is already here and has been for millenia.

I do believe you err as to what the Scripture says in Daniel chapter two and what it also states about the Kingdom of Heaven in the Gospels.

Thus, it is impossible for the Stone cut without hands to be the Second Coming. I do believe that makes your assertion wrong John317.

Again, other than the Bible where would you get such a false notion?

Whether you want to believe it or not is up to you. The Bible and the Bible only is very plain about this FACT as I have shown from Scripture.

The Scripture is very tight on this.

[Alchemy]

Originally Posted By: Alchemy

Who or what is the Stone in Daniel 2?

Who or what is the Stone that strikes the image of Nebuchadnezzar's dream at the feet?

The Stone is Jesus Christ, specifically at His second coming.

It is not the church, either the Christian church or the SDA Church.

Agreed.

[Alchemy]

Excellent post John317,

Also, if you stop the chronology of Daniel 2 with Rome, you never reach the "latter days" in Dan. 2:28.

[Dr. Rich]

Yes John, that's exactly what Satan did after Jesus sent out His own eyewitness disciples! Jesus even prophesies about this as found in Matthew 13 about the Wheat and the Tares. Problem is, NO ONE knew the difference between the wheat and the tares until NOW when the last generation of this world's history are now living.

[Alchemy]

@ miz3,

Verses 41 and 42 clearly state the fourth kingdom is divided at the feet and toes. Again miz3, you are incorrect.

Daniel 2:41-42; Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay. And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. (bold emphasis mine) (NKJV)

This division took place when Rome was broken apart into the ten toes, ten horns and so on.

[robert hickman]

JESUS CHRIST is the stone"Rock"

[jasd]

QR frame:

>>In fact Jesus Christ said that the Kingdom of Heaven was already existent (see Matthew 11:42; Matthew 13:11).<<

Umm, my Bible does not contain a 42nd verse in Matthew 11. What translation are you referencing?

Matthew 13:11 does not address an extant ‘Kingdom’ per se, but rather the “mysteries” of such a ‘Kingdom’.

Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

(or, as some would have it: “the kingdom of God is within the midst of you.”)

I believe that Luke 17 more forcefully addresses an extant Kingdom – at the time of Jesus Christ, yes?

However, all the arguments re the Dogmatology of Daniel 2 is moot per:

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

The arguments proffered so far re Daniel 2 are no more than repeats of those same arguments first put forward centuries ago – when both men’s ability to “travel to and fro” and men’s store of knowledge was not a thing noticeably “increased” – in other words: they were Elementary; woefully so, as to provide no authority to delve into the understanding of the book of Daniel. It is only now, with the spirit of this age, that

man may read Daniel for understanding, and following...: discard all prior ‘interpretations’ and Develop relevant interpretations.

To cling to and proselytize for (or shill for) premature ‘interpretations’ of the book of Daniel is to be willfully against Gd.

miz3, re Daniel 2:40: though favored by certain .orgs, the NIV is an undependable translation; – example,

I checked the Interlinear for the word “finally” in verse 40, a Septuagint (which begins the initial phrase of verse 40 with kai, and a good Baker’s Dozen-plus other translations – finding that the NIV is the only translation which begins the phrase with “Finally”. All others use a phrase bearing a more transitive sense of meaning...

Of course, it is given that – there may be the other odd translation here or there that I missed.

Lastly, per the above Luke 17:21, the Kingdom of Gd was already extant at the time of Jesus Christ – with no indication that that “Kingdom...” was dependant upon the Parousia.

Daniel 2 distinguishes between the Kingdom of Gd in Luke 17:21 and the numinous “a kingdom” of verse 44, Daniel 2.

[robert hickman]

You must understand that the book of Daniel is prophetic and deals with future events. in order to comprehend the prophecies of Daniel, the principle of REPETITION in OUTLINE prophecy must be understood. An outline prophecy is one that covers the whole span of time from the prophets day until the second coming of Christ. Daniel 2 begins with the Babylonian Empire and culminates in the return of Jesus Christ. All of the prophecies in Daniel cover the same basic outlline; however, each subsequent prophecy adds significant details that were not included in the initial one. In other words, the rest of the prophecies expand what is initialy covered in broad sweeps in daniel 2. THE FOCAL POINT OF EACH EXPANSION IS ALWAYS ON THE END TIME. Thus, when we finish our study of Daniel we will have an accurate and somewhat detailed history of the world from Daniels day to the end of time. Another factor that we should keep in mind in trying to under stand the prophies of Daniel is that the only nations that are mentioned in Daniel's prophecies are those nations that affect the covenant people of God. Some wonder why China and other great nations of antiquity were never mentioned in Scripture. The reason is simple--the bible is only concerned with those nations that impact on God's chosen people. Therefore, the various empires that appear in Scripture are those that come in contact with the covenant people of God. Also there is a lot of symbolism used in bible prophecy so don't take anything literal. An examply here would be the stone that destroys man made kingdoms is Jesus Christ, and doesn't happen until He comes back.

[Bert]

Originally Posted By: Bert

The 'Rock' that crushes the great image cannot be symbolic of Christ's first coming as a Babe, for His birth occurred during the period that the Roman Empire was in power, and remained in power for hundreds of years afterwards.

The 'ten toes' that symbolically represent the 'ten kingdoms' that arise after the demise of the Roman Empire are still in existence and are also symbolically represented by the 'ten horns (powers or kingdoms)' that come out of the head of the fourth beast of Daniel 7, which sees a 'little horn' arise that 'plucks out' three of the horns.

Hi Bert. :-)

How can the 10 toes be the ten horns?

The toes are the last thing on the statue, symbolising the last part of the kingdom.

Also, at the end there are 10 toes, not 7.

If you look at revelation, there are 10 kings that come right at the very end.

If you accept the chronology of the statue, then those 10 kings are very likely the ten toes.

The legs of iron on the great image of Nebuchadnezzar's dream represent symbolically pagan, and papal Rome some say. In Daniel 2:41, it says that this kingdom will be 'divided'..."And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay." If a kingdom is divided, then the divided portions must be a kingdom or a power as well in order to succeed in their separation from the original kingdom (Rome). Thus, the 'ten toes' represent ten kingdoms that arise when the Roman Empire collapses as a world power. They represent world powers from the time of the demise of the Roman Empire until the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

Next, there is a parallel vision by Daniel of four beasts. A lion that represents Babylon, a two-sided bear that represents the Medes-Persians, a leopard that represents Grecia, and a fourth non-descript, fierce-looking beast that has 'ten horns', and a 'little horn' comes up amidst the ten horns and uproots three of the horns. We know that horns are kingdoms, or powers, for it is revealed in Rev. 17:12. The fourth beast has to be the Roman Empire, for it is the power that succeeded Greece as a power.

There is further light shed on the prophecies of Daniel in Revelation 13:1. A beast is described as coming up out of the sea (representing a populated area of peoples, etc., for Rev. 17:15 tells us that waters are peoples, nations, etc.), and it has seven heads and ten horns, and ten crowns on the horns, and the seven heads are accused of blasphemy. In verse 2 there is a description of this beast...it was like a leopard, and its feet 'were like the feet of a bear', and his mouth like the 'mouth of a lion'. There seems to be no doubt that John is referring to the beasts of Daniel 7...the lion (Babylon), the bear (Medo-Persia), the leopard (Greece). Notice that the characteristics of the beast in Revelation 13 are in reverse order from those in Daniel, for Daniel was looking towards the cross, and John was looking back at the cross from his day.

To further describe the meaning of Rev. 13:1, we need to answer the following questions:

1) What are the seven heads, and what do they represent? For the answer we can find it in Rev. 17:9, and it tells us that the seven heads are 'seven mountains, upon which the woman sitteth'. The symbolism of the 'woman' is another lengthy topic that requires some research and study.

2) Next question is, what are the ten horns with the ten crowns? Obviously they represent kingdoms, or powers, for they wear crowns. There is a reference to the ten horns in Rev. 17:12 as being ten kings as well.

It is clear that all of these prophecies are parallel to each other, while those in Revelation expand on those from Daniel and provide more detail.

[John317]

[John317]

You must understand that the book of Daniel is prophetic and deals with future events. in order to comprehend the prophecies of Daniel, the principle of REPETITION in OUTLINE prophecy must be understood. An outline prophecy is one that covers the whole span of time from the prophets day until the second coming of Christ. Daniel 2 begins with the Babylonian Empire and culminates in the return of Jesus Christ. All of the prophecies in Daniel cover the same basic outlline; however, each subsequent prophecy adds significant details that were not included in the initial one. In other words, the rest of the prophecies expand what is initialy covered in broad sweeps in daniel 2. THE FOCAL POINT OF EACH EXPANSION IS ALWAYS ON THE END TIME. Thus, when we finish our study of Daniel we will have an accurate and somewhat detailed history of the world from Daniels day to the end of time. Another factor that we should keep in mind in trying to under stand the prophies of Daniel is that the only nations that are mentioned in Daniel's prophecies are those nations that affect the covenant people of God. Some wonder why China and other great nations of antiquity were never mentioned in Scripture. The reason is simple--the bible is only concerned with those nations that impact on God's chosen people. Therefore, the various empires that appear in Scripture are those that come in contact with the covenant people of God. Also there is a lot of symbolism used in bible prophecy so don't take anything literal. An examply here would be the stone that destroys man made kingdoms is Jesus Christ, and doesn't happen until He comes back.

Amen and Amen!!!

[John317]

Yes John, that's exactly what Satan did after Jesus sent out His own eyewitness disciples! Jesus even prophesies about this as found in Matthew 13 about the Wheat and the Tares. Problem is, NO ONE knew the difference between the wheat and the tares until NOW when the last generation of this world's history are now living.

I know what you're saying, Dr. Rich.

You are saying that Satan tricked the disciples at the Day of Pentecost into believing the Holy Spirit inspired them when it was (according to you) actually the Devil who inspired Peter and the others and made them act like drunken fools.

You are also saying that Jesus Himself predicted the Satan would infiltrate the church in that way, and that only you and a few others realize that Satan planted lots of false doctrines in the Bible.

I do agree with you, though, that we are living just before the time of Christ's return.

[John317]

We know this Fourth kingdom to be Rome. That means in plain language John317 that there is nothing to come after Rome. Rome is the Final kingdom.

Thus, the Final kingdom, Rome, is the thighs, feet, and toes. There is not separation of these body parts. They are all Rome.

I agree that it's all Rome-- papal Rome. There was pagan Rome first and secondly papal Rome. The Roman Empire gets divided, and we are living at the time it is divided. Christ's return occurs while Rome is divided. There won't be another world kingdom after Rome.

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Yes John, that's exactly what Satan did after Jesus sent out His own eyewitness disciples! Jesus even prophesies about this as found in Matthew 13 about the Wheat and the Tares. Problem is, NO ONE knew the difference between the wheat and the tares until NOW when the last generation of this world's history are now living.

I know what you're saying, Dr. Rich.

You are saying that Satan tricked the disciples at the Day of Pentecost into believing the Holy Spirit inspired them when it was (according to you) actually the Devil who inspired Peter and the others and made them act like drunken fools.

You are also saying that Jesus Himself predicted the Satan would infiltrate the church in that way, and that only you and a few others realize that Satan planted lots of false doctrines in the Bible.

I do agree with you, though, that we are living just before the time of Christ's return.

Yes and no John317, as you are dead right on about how deadly Satan's deception was and still is and has affected people in the whole world! But I doubt that the eyewitness disciples were fooled by Satan as you stated because they already had Jesus give them the Holy Spirit as found in John 20:20-22.

If what Luke wrote in Acts 2 was true, Luke was not one of those who saw it or witnessed it as he was much later converted by Paul and became a follower of Paul. Therefore, I place my bet on what John said rather than on hearsay evidence.

And no, I am not saying that Jesus ever predicted anything, as Jesus KNEW what was going to happen and this was prophecy and not mere prediction. Jesus clearly knew that Satan would use someone such as he did, during the life time of the disciples (See Matt. 24:4-5) to twist the truth that Jesus said He was born to do (John 18:37, Matt. 5:23; 9:35; 24:14 and Rev. 12:17) and that this person would scatter (Matt. 12:30) and teach lawlessness (Matt. 7:15,23; 24:11, Rev. 12:17; 22:15 and compare it to Rom. 10:4, Gal. 5:18 and Eph. 2:8-9)

And no, not just me and a few others have discovered this as today's program (archived) at www.blogtalkradio.com/sot ("Bible On Trial") will show that God has many more people who are discovering the truth from all over the world right now.

[John317]

...You add to Word of God if you say the feet/toes are some other power that comes after Rome. You are then putting your human preconceived notions into your interpretations of the Plain Word of God.

Is that what you want to do, John317? It is not a matter of disagreeing with me (as you state in your post). It is a matter of disagreeing with the very plain language and Word of God. Again, John317, I ask, Is that what you want to do?

What are you talking about?