Who or what is the Stone in Daniel 2?

[12tribes]

Quote:

There are 10 toes not 7...

If we want the 10 toes to be the 7, then that timeline effectively paused before 538ad, before the three kingdoms were wiped out.

So we have pre 538 where the ten kings are all still in existance and equal the 10 toes.

So from 538 to the second coming of Christ, we have no account of anything in the statue.

Nothing.

There are 10 toes, not 7 folks.

Think about it. :-)

Sounds like a futurist theology

[Bert]

Originally Posted By: Bert

Couldn't start with Babylon, because from that point there were three more major powers that were considered world empires, with the Roman Empire being the fourth one. What or who are the other three? There are a couple more schools of theological consensus that addresses Revelation 17, which I pointed out in a couple of posts above. If you start the kingdoms with Egypt, followed by Syria, then Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, pagan Rome and then papal Rome, then you have your seven periods. The ten kings allude to the ten toes of kingdoms, and were not in power when John was writing Revelation, for the Roman Empire broke up around A.D.476.

Slow down Bert...

Why would we start the 7 kings in Rev 17 with anything other than Bablyon?

As I pointed out in my comments above, there are two more schools of theological consensus that address Revelation 17, which were explained in one or two of my previous posts. The reason some scholars start with Egypt is because it was the first kingdom to force the Israelites into slavery. You have to remember that these prophecies affect the Israelites...both literal and spiritual Israel. Thus the seven kings, in order of succession, would be Egypt, then Syria, Babylon, Medes-Persians, Greece, the Roman Empire and the seventh...papal Rome. Remembering that the time in which John wrote Revelation 17:10, he was looking at it from the fifth kingdom...the period of the pagan Roman Empire. In view of that, Revelation 17:10 says, "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space." The five that were fallen at John's time were Egypt, Syria, Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece. The 'one is' would be the Roman Empire in which John lived, and the seventh is papal Rome. That is one interpretation.

Another is that the seven heads apparently represent seven major political powers through which Satan has sought to destroy the people and work of God on earth (see Rev. 17:2,3,6, and 10). Whether or not these heads were intended to be identified with seven specific nations of history is not clear, since in the Revelation the number "seven" often has a symbolic rather than a literal numerical value. Accordingly, some have understood the seven heads to represent all political opposition to the people and cause of God on earth throughout history, without specifying seven particular nations.

A third assumption is that the powers represented by the seven heads must be seven specific nations already referred to in the various prophecies of Daniel and the Revelation. They identify the first four heads with the four great world empires of Daniel 2 and 7, the fifth with the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8 and the leopardlike beast of Revelation 13, the sixth with the power represented in Rev. 11:7, and the seventh with the two-horned beast of Rev. 13:11. According to this pattern of interpretation the powers represented by the first five heads would be Babylon, Persia, Greece, the Roman Empire, and the papacy. The sixth and seventh heads might be revolutionary France and the United States, or the United States and a restored papacy.

Revelation 17 is mostly concerned with the beast during its "yet is" period, when it is "the eighth" (See Rev. 17:8 and 11), and the interpretation of the basic message of the chapter is fortunately not contingent upon the identification of the seven heads. It is the "eighth" that affects us in the present time. However, I prefer the first definition of the seven heads starting with Egypt, for it makes it easier to compare prophecies and set time tables better, but they all come to the same conclusion.

Remember the prophecies build on each other.

If we have to start jumping around to fit something in to our framework then we are on poor foundations.

We have to discard Daniel all of a sudden and start trying to use other powers chronologically to make the 7 kingdoms the ten toes?

Doesn't make sense Bert.

There is no indication that the 7 kings of Rev 17 do not start on the same timeline as Daniel 2.

Read the above explanation closely and you will see the clarity and conformity of the prophecies as being parallel.

[Bert]

Have you ever considered that you may have arrived at an incorrect interpretation of the intent and meaning of Daniel 2? The Bible is clear as to what the ten toes mean, and spells it out in several textual references in both Daniel and Revelation. In addition, recorded history agrees as well, and scholars for hundreds of years have interpreted it that way. Encyclopedias, ancient history books, and numerous articles have been written that confirm the demise of the Roman Empire. And yet, you 'kick against the goads' and come up with an unexplainable and non-conforming ideology that contradicts eschatological events as well as history that defies logic.

[Bert]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

The first beast of Rev. 13 is the One Word Order, now forming. The second beast of Rev. 13 is Satan himself that has been given the keys of the abyss at the start of the last five months of the 42 months. By this time ALL who choose to follow truth and become righteous by overcoming sin have been sealed by God. The 'mark of the beast' will be given at this time and it will not have anything to do with those who have been sealed by God. So don't fret about this unless you choose to remain sinful.

I agree that the 2nd beast is Satan’s impersonation of Jesus (lamb who speaks like a dragon). A country cannot call fire down out of heaven or perform miracles so this beast is not the usa.

Would you consider that the first atomic bomb ever used in the history of the world was 'fire that came down out of heaven'?

And if we look at the first beast of Dan. 7 it’s saying the same thing:

Quote:

The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man’s heart was given to it. Dan 7:4

You are dealing with symbols and symbolic language. Here is an explanation of this verse. The winged lion is found on Babylonian objects of art. The combination of lion and eagle was a common motif...more often a lion with eagle's wings, sometimes with claws or a beak; a similar composite was the eagle with a lion's head. The winged lion is one of the forms of the beast often pictured in combat with Marduk, the patron god of the city of Babylon. It also is fitting that it represents the spread of Babylon's power, that the lion should be provided with eagle's wings. The meaning of the word "plucked" alludes to the lion being unable to fly like an eagle upon its prey, referring to the latter years of the Babylonian Empire. The reference to it being made 'to stand upon the feet as a man' would indicated the loss of lionlike qualities. The meaning of a 'heart being given to it' appears to be a reference to Babylon becoming weak and enfeebled through wealth and luxury, falling to the Medo-Persian kingdom.

This sounds nothing like the kingdom of Babylon and everything like an angel masquerading as a man! The angel’s wings are plucked off and given a man’s heart and appears as a man. Beasts and horns are not always countries.

Quote:

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. Rev. 5:6

Here’s one example of horns representing the seven spirits of God.

[Bert]

Quote:

There are 10 toes not 7...

If we want the 10 toes to be the 7, then that timeline effectively paused before 538ad, before the three kingdoms were wiped out.

So we have pre 538 where the ten kings are all still in existance and equal the 10 toes.

So from 538 to the second coming of Christ, we have no account of anything in the statue.

Nothing.

There are 10 toes, not 7 folks.

Think about it. :-)

Sounds like a futurist theology

[miz3]

Have you ever considered that you may have arrived at an incorrect interpretation of the intent and meaning of Daniel 2? The Bible is clear as to what the ten toes mean, and spells it out in several textual references in both Daniel and Revelation. In addition, recorded history agrees as well, and scholars for hundreds of years have interpreted it that way. Encyclopedias, ancient history books, and numerous articles have been written that confirm the demise of the Roman Empire. And yet, you 'kick against the goads' and come up with an unexplainable and non-conforming ideology that contradicts eschatological events as well as history that defies logic.

Point one: NO! Why? Daniel chapter two gives me no reason to change my view and/or consider that I am wrong.

Point two: The Bible is clear as to what the ten toes mean and Daniel chapter two says the legs, feet, and toes are all one Roman Empire. Daniel chapter two is also quite clear that the word "division" refers to "weak and strong" and NOT TO ANY OTHER FORM OF THAT WORD.

Point three: Revelation does not say that it ever refers to anything in Daniel. Humans are the ones who are trying to make such a connection.

Point four: Recorded history is what it is. As such it says nothing about your views of Daniel chapter two being correct. You are the one saying that history says what you say and history actually says no such thing. Humans all the time try to twist history to say what they think. Historians do this all the time and they do not agree with each other as to what History actually states. That is because they don't agree as to the meaning and the message of history. Often they will disagree with the "FACTS" as well.

Thus, not always a reliable source of Truth.

Point five: Scholars are human just like those Historians with many and varied thoughts and interpretations. Again this a very unreliable source of Truth.

Point six: Writings again are done by human beings and thus are subject to the flaws of Historians, scholars, etc. They are entitled to their opinions but in the end it is just a "human opinion" it is not the Word of God.

Indeed it is amazing how flawed so many can be in regard to Truth.

Point seven: You are pointing to human sources for your understanding of Daniel chapter two. Human sources are not qualified to understand the meaning of Scripture.

The Bible itself tells us who is qualified to tell us what the Bible means. That is found in 1Corinthians chapter two. I assure you that that text does not say anything about your human sources being qualified to interpret the Bible.

Since I did not exercise my opinion on anything about Daniel chapter two, I cannot be accused of doing any of these things. I merely said what Daniel chapter itself says, nothing more, and nothing less.

[Windsor]

If the Stone is to crush all the kingdoms of the World why do you limit your view only to Europe and Western Culture. This fact alone dooms such a view. Either we use the whole world in your assertion or the stone only crushes Europe and Western Culture at the Second Coming. Surely we can all see how foolish this assertion is. However such is the assertion is the limited assertion of the Reformers, Ellen White, and the SDA Church .org.

This shows that the view you espouse is nothing more then a European, Western Culture view of Truth. It does not include most of the rest of world. This would make it essentially a "white mans" prophecy.

These are the implications of such human additions to the Bible. It becomes a mess and so tangled and convoluted as to boggle the mind.

We must in order to really know truth, stick to exactly what the Bible and the Bible only says and what the Bible and the Bible only states is the interpretation of the vision.

We can then see how foolish this road is because such a road, including Europe is not Biblical but is in fact of human devising.

We have no choice if we want to know the Truth but to limit our understanding only to what the Bible actually states in Daniel chapter two.

The statue never included every single kingdom of the world. When Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome were all at their heights, there were still other nations outside their reach. They simply were not the subject of the vision. This was a vision given to Nebuchadnezzar, hence it starts with his own nation and only includes those nations that replace it. Call the vision White-centric if you will (though Babylonians and Persians have typically not been considered White). It just so happens that the last part of the vision deals with the most powerful nations on Earth just before the return of Christ (those that also descend from a kingdom that defeated another one - ie, Europeans took over Rome who took over Greece who took over Persia who took over Babylon) and those nations are inhabited by Europeans.

[12tribes]

The clay in Daniel 2 represents the church

Jeremiah 18:6

(6) O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Isaiah 64:8

(8) But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

All of the other materials in Daniel 2 represent something

Gold=Babylon

Silver=Medo-Persia

Brass=Greece

Iron=Rome

Stone=God's kingdom

So then the clay must also represent something. The union of the Iron & clay is the union of church/state.

Quote:

The mingling of churchcraft and statecraft is represented by the iron and the clay. This union is weakening all the power of the churches. This investing the church with the power of the state will bring evil results. Men have almost passed the point of God’s forbearance. They have invested their strength in politics, and have united with the papacy. But the time will come when God will punish those who have made void His law, and their evil work will recoil upon themselves (MS 63, 1899). {4BC 1168.8}

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

If the Stone is to crush all the kingdoms of the World why do you limit your view only to Europe and Western Culture. This fact alone dooms such a view. Either we use the whole world in your assertion or the stone only crushes Europe and Western Culture at the Second Coming. Surely we can all see how foolish this assertion is. However such is the assertion is the limited assertion of the Reformers, Ellen White, and the SDA Church .org.

This shows that the view you espouse is nothing more then a European, Western Culture view of Truth. It does not include most of the rest of world. This would make it essentially a "white mans" prophecy.

These are the implications of such human additions to the Bible. It becomes a mess and so tangled and convoluted as to boggle the mind.

We must in order to really know truth, stick to exactly what the Bible and the Bible only says and what the Bible and the Bible only states is the interpretation of the vision.

We can then see how foolish this road is because such a road, including Europe is not Biblical but is in fact of human devising.

We have no choice if we want to know the Truth but to limit our understanding only to what the Bible actually states in Daniel chapter two.

The statue never included every single kingdom of the world. When Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome were all at their heights, there were still other nations outside their reach. They simply were not the subject of the vision. This was a vision given to Nebuchadnezzar, hence it starts with his own nation and only includes those nations that replace it. Call the vision White-centric if you will (though Babylonians and Persians have typically not been considered White). It just so happens that the last part of the vision deals with the most powerful nations on Earth just before the return of Christ (those that also descend from a kingdom that defeated another one - ie, Europeans took over Rome who took over Greece who took over Persia who took over Babylon) and those nations are inhabited by Europeans.

1. That is precisely the point. The Vision and the Statue was limited to the four kingdoms and was not meant to reach all the way down through time.

2. Daniel chapter two says that the Stone is God/Jesus Christ who will set up a Kingdom that will smash everything and be an Eternal Kingdom.

In fact it says in the "days of these kings". Which kings?

The kings of the statue that is which kings. It is not possible that the Bible as it is stated in Daniel chapter two could be referring to any other kings than the kings of the statue.

The kings of statue were only those kings who ruled Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece (Macedonia), and Rome. That's it.

Anything is an addition to the Word of God and therefore is not Biblical.

Nowhere does it say in Daniel chapter two in either the vision nor its interpretation that the Stone is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

The Stone did its work at Jesus Christ's FIRST COMING. The First Coming of Jesus Christ was in the "days of these kings".

Also the Bible does not say that the Stone wipes out the descendents or offspring of these four kingdoms. Thus, your theory about Europe etc. is kaput.

3. The only reason to add to Scripture, use outside sources, theological methodologies, etc. etc. is because the theory proposed does not fit what Scripture says as it actually is read.

The view that the Stone is the Second Coming is not found in the text (either the vision nor the interpretation) so those that believe and espouse this theory have to bring in outside sources, use theological tricks, and things that the actual Scripture does not say.

[miz3]

The clay in Daniel 2 represents the church

Jeremiah 18:6

(6) O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Isaiah 64:8

(8) But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

All of the other materials in Daniel 2 represent something

Gold=Babylon

Silver=Medo-Persia

Brass=Greece

Iron=Rome

Stone=God's kingdom

So then the clay must also represent something. The union of the Iron & clay is the union of church/state.

Quote:

The mingling of churchcraft and statecraft is represented by the iron and the clay. This union is weakening all the power of the churches. This investing the church with the power of the state will bring evil results. Men have almost passed the point of God’s forbearance. They have invested their strength in politics, and have united with the papacy. But the time will come when God will punish those who have made void His law, and their evil work will recoil upon themselves (MS 63, 1899). {4BC 1168.8}

This is really way outside of Scripture.

[Bert]

miz3 - Your interpretation of the word 'division' as it pertains to the succession of kingdoms is flawed, and cannot be verified or confirmed by scripture or any secular source, and neither does it conform to other prophecies that parallel Daniel 2. Therefore, it fails to meet the test required by Isaiah 8:20.

[Bert]

windsor - The kingdoms in prophecy of Daniel are those kingdoms that are centered around the nation of Israel, which was the nation that God used to introduce the coming of a Messiah to the world, and it is the center of religious conflict today.

[Bert]

miz3 - One verse in Daniel 2 completely negates your theory of Christ's life on earth as being the stone hewn out of the mountain. It is Daniel 2:44, which reads: "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

This verse applies to the ten kingdoms that form after the break-up of the Roman Empire, as well as all other kingdoms that are established throughout history to the time that sees Christ's second coming. It will be at that time when 'God will set up His kingdom, which will never be destroyed.' There is no way that this verse applied to the period following Christ's life on earth, for the verse continues on and says 'that the kingdom shall not be left to other people, and it will break in pieces and consume all these nations (the ten kingdoms represented by the ten toes), and IT SHALL STAND FOREVER." This has not occurred yet, a fact that is plain to see.

[Bert]

12tribes - I would say that the clay represents mankind, for it is from clay, dust or dirt, that man was made. In other words, we know that the iron represents a portion of the Roman Empire from which it mingles with mankind of other nationalities, ethnic groups, and races represented by the clay, to form other nations that will not 'cleave together' as given in Daniel 2:43, which says, "And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay." As you look back over the history of the world, the Roman Empire was the last empire to control the civilized world at that time. No other nation has been able to repeat that feat. Napoleon tried, the Kaiser tried it, Hitler tried it, the Communists tried it, all to no avail. No other nation will ever achieve the heighth of power over other nations as did the Roman Empire. If that were so, then prophecy would have indicated that another kingdom would arise, but there is no provision for that to happen. The next event after the division of the Roman Empire is the second coming of Christ.

[Alchemy]

miz3 wrote; "The Bible does not confirm what you say it does.

I am sorry but once again you get it wrong. The Bible however does say that the the legs, feet, and toes are a single nation. It is impossible to escape this Biblical FACT in Daniel chapter two.

You say dig where there is nothing but human innuendo, preconceptions, human add ons, etc. etc.

The Bible never ever buries FACTS that need to be hunted out by only the smart and the elite ones who have been educated to do such things. 1Corinthians chapter two disagrees with such an assessment of Bible study and research. This is why uneducated ones can know the Truth.

God does not work the way you say. What you say is just a fundamental excuse to bring in all kinds of erroneous interpretations of Scripture that are nothing but human mumbo jumbo/gibberish.

You are correct that most are resistant to Biblical Truth and that is because they want to bring in all their preconceived notions, outside sources, theological structures, academic tools, etc. etc.

The Disciples of Jesus Christ never ever used such devices in order for them to know the Biblical Truth. In FACT God told them the Holy Spirit would bring them into all Truth. In this the Disciples were in absolute unity with 1Corinthians chapter two.

Thus, I have to wonder about your conclusions which are based on preconceived notions, outside sources, theological structures and academic tools. Your conclusions cannot be True because they are based on all those things in order to come such conclusions as you have made.

This is why my conclusions are based solely on what the Bible actually says and not on some digging tools that are human in nature and filled with all the human flaws and thus can never ever know Truth."

It has already been clearly demonstrated from Scripture that the two legs of iron are divided. miz3 can't accept this clear Biblical description, but there it is! The legs divided into ten toes of which three were completely eliminated from the Earth.

[miz3]

miz3 - Your interpretation of the word 'division' as it pertains to the succession of kingdoms is flawed, and cannot be verified or confirmed by scripture or any secular source, and neither does it conform to other prophecies that parallel Daniel 2. Therefore, it fails to meet the test required by Isaiah 8:20.

I am sorry Bert but apparently you have trouble. I did show you straight out of Daniel chapter two that the Bible blatantly and clearly states that the "word division" in Daniel chapter two means "strong and weak".

Here is the text again so you can again see the Truth.

"As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle."

Daniel 2:42.

part iron/part clay = strong/weak!

You cannot get much clearer than that.

Thus, it appears the "flaw" is on your part.

[miz3]

miz3 - One verse in Daniel 2 completely negates your theory of Christ's life on earth as being the stone hewn out of the mountain. It is Daniel 2:44, which reads: "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

This verse applies to the ten kingdoms that form after the break-up of the Roman Empire, as well as all other kingdoms that are established throughout history to the time that sees Christ's second coming. It will be at that time when 'God will set up His kingdom, which will never be destroyed.' There is no way that this verse applied to the period following Christ's life on earth, for the verse continues on and says 'that the kingdom shall not be left to other people, and it will break in pieces and consume all these nations (the ten kingdoms represented by the ten toes), and IT SHALL STAND FOREVER." This has not occurred yet, a fact that is plain to see.

The phrase "in the days of those kings" only refers to the kings of the Four Kingdoms (mainly the rulers of Rome).

You keep wanting the text to be Europe when Daniel chapter two mentions nothing about Europe in any way shape or form. Such a view is pure fantasy and comes only from the fancies of human thinking. It does not come from the Bible.

[miz3]

12tribes - I would say that the clay represents mankind, for it is from clay, dust or dirt, that man was made. In other words, we know that the iron represents a portion of the Roman Empire from which it mingles with mankind of other nationalities, ethnic groups, and races represented by the clay, to form other nations that will not 'cleave together' as given in Daniel 2:43, which says, "And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay." As you look back over the history of the world, the Roman Empire was the last empire to control the civilized world at that time. No other nation has been able to repeat that feat. Napoleon tried, the Kaiser tried it, Hitler tried it, the Communists tried it, all to no avail. No other nation will ever achieve the heighth of power over other nations as did the Roman Empire. If that were so, then prophecy would have indicated that another kingdom would arise, but there is no provision for that to happen. The next event after the division of the Roman Empire is the second coming of Christ.

Nothing but human reasoning here. The Bible in Daniel chapter two says nothing like this.

Second, the peoples of Asia, the peoples of Africa, the indigenous peoples of the Western Hemisphere might have a "slight" disagreement with you as to whether Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece (Macedonia), and Rome were actually "civilized" and they were not. Such statements come from a "white ethnocentric" view of the World and its history.

Just exactly how is the "Roman Empire" more "civilized" than the rest of the World?

This is exactly what happens when we put our own human ideas and interpretations on what the Bible is actually saying. Such misuse then makes the Bible only a human document which is disrespect for God and His Word. We cannot put our own ideas on the Word of God and the above is exactly doing that very thing to the Bible.

[miz3]

miz3 wrote; "The Bible does not confirm what you say it does.

I am sorry but once again you get it wrong. The Bible however does say that the the legs, feet, and toes are a single nation. It is impossible to escape this Biblical FACT in Daniel chapter two.

You say dig where there is nothing but human innuendo, preconceptions, human add ons, etc. etc.

The Bible never ever buries FACTS that need to be hunted out by only the smart and the elite ones who have been educated to do such things. 1Corinthians chapter two disagrees with such an assessment of Bible study and research. This is why uneducated ones can know the Truth.

God does not work the way you say. What you say is just a fundamental excuse to bring in all kinds of erroneous interpretations of Scripture that are nothing but human mumbo jumbo/gibberish.

You are correct that most are resistant to Biblical Truth and that is because they want to bring in all their preconceived notions, outside sources, theological structures, academic tools, etc. etc.

The Disciples of Jesus Christ never ever used such devices in order for them to know the Biblical Truth. In FACT God told them the Holy Spirit would bring them into all Truth. In this the Disciples were in absolute unity with 1Corinthians chapter two.

Thus, I have to wonder about your conclusions which are based on preconceived notions, outside sources, theological structures and academic tools. Your conclusions cannot be True because they are based on all those things in order to come such conclusions as you have made.

This is why my conclusions are based solely on what the Bible actually says and not on some digging tools that are human in nature and filled with all the human flaws and thus can never ever know Truth."

It has already been clearly demonstrated from Scripture that the two legs of iron are divided. miz3 can't accept this clear Biblical description, but there it is! The legs divided into ten toes of which three were completely eliminated from the Earth.

Please Alchemy give me Book, chapter, and verse where it states that the legs are divided into the ten toes?

Please Alechemy, give me Book, chapter, and verse where it states that the ten toes had three toes completely eliminated?

Remember we are talking about what Daniel chapter two only is saying.

[Bert]

Miz3 - What you are saying is that the Roman Empire is still in existence since the world has not evolved beyond the legs of iron. As such, then Daniel has not progressed beyond the fourth beast, and the ten horns mean nothing since they have not taken affect yet.

What is sad is that you fail to see the fallacy of your interpretation, for it is completely at odds with the entire structure of eschatology in both Daniel and Revelation. Maybe your Bible version is the cause of your misunderstanding, for the KJV says that the kingdom will 'be divided', and be 'partly strong, and partly broken'. The word 'brittle' is misleading, for the Hebrew word is tbar , meaning figuratively 'to be fragile':---broken. That is the adjectival response to the division of the kingdom, for it is broken up.

[Bert]

miz3 - You have completely taken prophecies out of context and application. Bible prophecy is centered around the nation of Israel since it was the area that would see the Messiah come, and it is the area in which the gospel message would be formed and then spread throughout the rest of the world. As such, prophecies are pertinent to that area of the world.

In Daniel's time, the people of Asia were unknown as well as too distant to be involved in any problems and activities in Israel. And what part of the western hemisphere was involved with Israel or any of the nations that surrounded Israel in Daniel's time? The existence of the Americas was hundreds of years away.

The Roman Republic was just being organized at the time of Daniel's vision, and it wasn't until 27 BC before the Roman Empire came into existence and ruled the then Western world. It was highly civilized and along with Greece, was the center of commerce, art, beautiful buildings, and a well-organized governmental system.

Sorry, but you're the one that is interjecting human ideas and interpretations, for there is not one single other verse in the Bible that supports your premise. The Bible tells us that when studying the Bible we should do it 'precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little, and there a little.' Isaiah 28:10.

[miz3]

Miz3 - What you are saying is that the Roman Empire is still in existence since the world has not evolved beyond the legs of iron. As such, then Daniel has not progressed beyond the fourth beast, and the ten horns mean nothing since they have not taken affect yet.

What is sad is that you fail to see the fallacy of your interpretation, for it is completely at odds with the entire structure of eschatology in both Daniel and Revelation. Maybe your Bible version is the cause of your misunderstanding, for the KJV says that the kingdom will 'be divided', and be 'partly strong, and partly broken'. The word 'brittle' is misleading, for the Hebrew word is tbar , meaning figuratively 'to be fragile':---broken. That is the adjectival response to the division of the kingdom, for it is broken up.

You are putting words in my mouth. I never, ever said that the Roman Empire is still in existence. I also never said that time stopped with the Roman Empire.

What I did say is that the vision stopped with the Roman Empire. That is it.

Secondly, what is actually sad is that you admit that you use an outside the Bible interpretation when you say my view "is completely at odds with the entire structure of eschatology".

What "structure" are you referring to? It appears you are referring to some human theological structure. As such I told you earlier the Bible cannot be known by "human theological structures" and/or any other human contrivances.

Here is the KJV of Daniel chapter two:

"As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle."

Daniel 2:42.

Thus, the King James Version says nothing different than the NIV in regard to the meaning of "division". As you can plainly see:

partly iron/partly clay = partly strong/partly brittle(weak)

which is exactly the same as the NIV which I quoted early. There is absolutely no difference in FACT nor in Concept.

Both the KJV and the NIV say exactly the same thing and they say that you are wrong.

Besides this, you just admitted in your quote that you use "theological structures" which are outside the Bible in order to interpret the Bible. Such "structures" can never ever find the Truth.

As I told you before 1Corinthians chapter two tells us the only way to know/understand Bible Truth but you seem to have rejected the Bible's Command for your "theological structures".

[miz3]

miz3 - You have completely taken prophecies out of context and application. Bible prophecy is centered around the nation of Israel since it was the area that would see the Messiah come, and it is the area in which the gospel message would be formed and then spread throughout the rest of the world. As such, prophecies are pertinent to that area of the world.

In Daniel's time, the people of Asia were unknown as well as too distant to be involved in any problems and activities in Israel. And what part of the western hemisphere was involved with Israel or any of the nations that surrounded Israel in Daniel's time? The existence of the Americas was hundreds of years away.

The Roman Republic was just being organized at the time of Daniel's vision, and it wasn't until 27 BC before the Roman Empire came into existence and ruled the then Western world. It was highly civilized and along with Greece, was the center of commerce, art, beautiful buildings, and a well-organized governmental system.

Sorry, but you're the one that is interjecting human ideas and interpretations, for there is not one single other verse in the Bible that supports your premise. The Bible tells us that when studying the Bible we should do it 'precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little, and there a little.' Isaiah 28:10.

1. If the Bible prophecies "center around the nation of Israel, then the "heathen tribes north of the Roman Empire (Italy) would and did have nothing to do with Israel. They did not care one wit about Israel. Thus, using your own argument you are wrong. The "ten nations" of Europe that you assert have nothing to do with Israel and prophecy in the time of Daniel and even in the time of Jesus Christ.

Your own erroneous methods make what you say a contradiction.

2. There are many in Asia, Africa, ancient Western Hemisphere who had advanced societies as well that were just as good as Rome and Greece. In fact the Mathematics of Asia was far advanced to that of Europe at the time of Daniel and Jesus Christ. Other non European (Rome/Greece) had advanced knowledge of astronomy and science.

So you are indeed wrong. Your "white ethnocentric" views of the World are wrong.

Other civilizations also had " center of commerce, art, beautiful buildings, and a well-organized governmental system."

3. The moment you go north of Italy to the "ten" of Europe you by your own definition of "out of context" are out of context. These were uncivilized barbarians and cared nothing about the nation of Israel.

4. Why do you keep going outside the Bible for your interpretations?

[Bert]

[Bert]