Who or what is the Stone in Daniel 2?

[miz3]

@ miz3,

Verses 41 and 42 clearly state the fourth kingdom is divided at the feet and toes. Again miz3, you are incorrect.

Daniel 2:41-42; Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay. And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. (bold emphasis mine) (NKJV)

This division took place when Rome was broken apart into the ten toes, ten horns and so on.

You misunderstand what "divided" means here. It does not mean divided in that it split into two parts. It means that kingdom from the beginning is partly weak and partly strong. That is what the Bible says in its own words.

You are adding your interpretation and ignoring the Bible's own interpretation of what it means by "divided".

Why do you insist on making your own interpretation and ignoring the plain Words of Bible and its clear interprtation of what it actually means?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

We know this Fourth kingdom to be Rome. That means in plain language John317 that there is nothing to come after Rome. Rome is the Final kingdom.

Thus, the Final kingdom, Rome, is the thighs, feet, and toes. There is not separation of these body parts. They are all Rome.

I agree that it's all Rome-- papal Rome. There was pagan Rome first and secondly papal Rome. The Roman Empire gets divided, and we are living at the time it is divided. Christ's return occurs while Rome is divided. There won't be another world kingdom after Rome.

No Papal Rome in Daniel chapter two.

You and many others do not read the Bible carefully. The Bible does not say that the division is between Pagan/Papal Rome. Read the words carefully.

Here I will given them to you again:

"Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. 41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay."

Daniel 2:40-43.

Look and think carefully now. Verse forty-two says that the fourth kingdom will be partly strong and partly weak. It is this FACT that makes the kingdom divided. It is not a division into two separate kingdoms as you assert.

You are once again inserting your thoughts when you say it is talking about pagan/papal Rome. The Bible does not say anything like this. Thus, your view is a false interpretation of the passage. You are trying to make the words say what they do not say.

The division spoken of here has nothing to do with papal Rome in any way shape or form. This is an SDA Church .org view that comes straight out of the pen of Ellen White.

It is not the Biblical view at all.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

...You add to Word of God if you say the feet/toes are some other power that comes after Rome. You are then putting your human preconceived notions into your interpretations of the Plain Word of God.

Is that what you want to do, John317? It is not a matter of disagreeing with me (as you state in your post). It is a matter of disagreeing with the very plain language and Word of God. Again, John317, I ask, Is that what you want to do?

What are you talking about?

Your views on Daniel two and papal Rome.

[Bert]

Originally Posted By: Alchemy

@ miz3,

Verses 41 and 42 clearly state the fourth kingdom is divided at the feet and toes. Again miz3, you are incorrect.

Daniel 2:41-42; Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay. And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. (bold emphasis mine) (NKJV)

This division took place when Rome was broken apart into the ten toes, ten horns and so on.

You misunderstand what "divided" means here. It does not mean divided in that it split into two parts. It means that kingdom from the beginning is partly weak and partly strong. That is what the Bible says in its own words.

You are adding your interpretation and ignoring the Bible's own interpretation of what it means by "divided".

Why do you insist on making your own interpretation and ignoring the plain Words of Bible and its clear interprtation of what it actually means?

You are applying an incorrect interpretation of the ten toes. 'Divided' means exactly that...the ten toes are symbolic of the break-up of the Roman Empire, which are the 'legs of iron'. If the feet and toes represented the Roman Empire, then they would still be all 'iron'. The feet and toes are of iron AND clay. To understand what that means, it is necessary to add 'clay' to the iron. Since iron is from the Roman Empire, the iron part of the feet and toes represent the source of the feet and toes...from the legs. 'Clay' is dirt from the earth, and earth in prophetic language refers to an unpopulated area as opposed to the 'sea', which represents a populated area. Thus the remnants of the Roman Empire will mix with other groups, tribes, etc., over the years that follow until Christ comes. Some of these tribes or nations will be strong, some will be weak, and since they are of different nationalities and tongues, it is most likely that they will 'not cleave together' as a nation.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

You misunderstand what "divided" means here. It does not mean divided in that it split into two parts. It means that kingdom from the beginning is partly weak and partly strong. That is what the Bible says in its own words.

You are adding your interpretation and ignoring the Bible's own interpretation of what it means by "divided".

Why do you insist on making your own interpretation and ignoring the plain Words of Bible and its clear interpretation of what it actually means?

You are applying an incorrect interpretation of the ten toes. 'Divided' means exactly that...the ten toes are symbolic of the break-up of the Roman Empire, which are the 'legs of iron'. If the feet and toes represented the Roman Empire, then they would still be all 'iron'. The feet and toes are of iron AND clay. To understand what that means, it is necessary to add 'clay' to the iron. Since iron is from the Roman Empire, the iron part of the feet and toes represent the source of the feet and toes...from the legs. 'Clay' is dirt from the earth, and earth in prophetic language refers to an unpopulated area as opposed to the 'sea', which represents a populated area. Thus the remnants of the Roman Empire will mix with other groups, tribes, etc., over the years that follow until Christ comes. Some of these tribes or nations will be strong, some will be weak, and since they are of different nationalities and tongues, it is most likely that they will 'not cleave together' as a nation.

I don't understand why anyone would substitute their own interpretation and their own preconceived ideas in place of the Bible's clear Word. What I cited is exactly what the Bible says it is and only what the Bible states.

Others may bring their own interpretations/preconceived ideas to the discussion of what the Bible says but as for me, I will not do that. I will only do what the Word actually states and what the Bible interprets about itself. This I have done in my own posts.

You are free to accept or not. What you decide is between you and God. My own conscience is clear because I spoke the Truth and did not apply an incorrect interpretation of the ten toes. I let the Bible speak for itself.

[Alchemy]

Originally Posted By: Alchemy

@ miz3,

Verses 41 and 42 clearly state the fourth kingdom is divided at the feet and toes. Again miz3, you are incorrect.

Daniel 2:41-42; Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay. And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. (bold emphasis mine) (NKJV)

This division took place when Rome was broken apart into the ten toes, ten horns and so on.

You misunderstand what "divided" means here. It does not mean divided in that it split into two parts. It means that kingdom from the beginning is partly weak and partly strong. That is what the Bible says in its own words.

You are adding your interpretation and ignoring the Bible's own interpretation of what it means by "divided".

Why do you insist on making your own interpretation and ignoring the plain Words of Bible and its clear interprtation of what it actually means?

LOLOL...

miz3, you are the one insisting on your private interpretation! The Bible says divided when you said it didn't say that! Now, you want to define the word "divided" to fulfill your personal beliefs.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Alchemy

Who or what is the Stone in Daniel 2?

Who or what is the Stone that strikes the image of Nebuchadnezzar's dream at the feet?

The Stone is Jesus Christ, specifically at His second coming.

It is not the church, either the Christian church or the SDA Church.

[Twilight II]

I know the traditions view is that the ten horns are the 7 toes.

But there is a problem here.

There are not 7 toes...

There are ten toes.

Quote:

Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Key points in revelation on this subject of the ten toes:

1. Their are ten kings, they have received no kingdom yet.

2. They receive power for one hour only.

3. They come after the 7 kings.

4. The 7 kings are Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, Papal Rome, USA, Papal USA.

After this timeline does the 10 kings appear.

Now if we accept Daniel 2 is Chronological, there are ten toes right at the end.

Not just 7.

So surely, with the confirmation from Revalation 17, we can see that they are powers that unite with the papacy at the very end.

(I have no idea who those powers will be, but they are something to watch for).

If I am way off of track, those that accept the traditional SDA interpretation, please correct me. :-)

You will need to explain how their are ten toes though and not seven, from the bible and bible alone. :-)

Mark :-)

[Twilight II]

The legs of iron on the great image of Nebuchadnezzar's dream represent symbolically pagan, and papal Rome some say. In Daniel 2:41, it says that this kingdom will be 'divided'..."And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay." If a kingdom is divided, then the divided portions must be a kingdom or a power as well in order to succeed in their separation from the original kingdom (Rome). Thus, the 'ten toes' represent ten kingdoms that arise when the Roman Empire collapses as a world power. They represent world powers from the time of the demise of the Roman Empire until the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

Next, there is a parallel vision by Daniel of four beasts. A lion that represents Babylon, a two-sided bear that represents the Medes-Persians, a leopard that represents Grecia, and a fourth non-descript, fierce-looking beast that has 'ten horns', and a 'little horn' comes up amidst the ten horns and uproots three of the horns. We know that horns are kingdoms, or powers, for it is revealed in Rev. 17:12. The fourth beast has to be the Roman Empire, for it is the power that succeeded Greece as a power.

There is further light shed on the prophecies of Daniel in Revelation 13:1. A beast is described as coming up out of the sea (representing a populated area of peoples, etc., for Rev. 17:15 tells us that waters are peoples, nations, etc.), and it has seven heads and ten horns, and ten crowns on the horns, and the seven heads are accused of blasphemy. In verse 2 there is a description of this beast...it was like a leopard, and its feet 'were like the feet of a bear', and his mouth like the 'mouth of a lion'. There seems to be no doubt that John is referring to the beasts of Daniel 7...the lion (Babylon), the bear (Medo-Persia), the leopard (Greece). Notice that the characteristics of the beast in Revelation 13 are in reverse order from those in Daniel, for Daniel was looking towards the cross, and John was looking back at the cross from his day.

To further describe the meaning of Rev. 13:1, we need to answer the following questions:

1) What are the seven heads, and what do they represent? For the answer we can find it in Rev. 17:9, and it tells us that the seven heads are 'seven mountains, upon which the woman sitteth'. The symbolism of the 'woman' is another lengthy topic that requires some research and study.

2) Next question is, what are the ten horns with the ten crowns? Obviously they represent kingdoms, or powers, for they wear crowns. There is a reference to the ten horns in Rev. 17:12 as being ten kings as well.

It is clear that all of these prophecies are parallel to each other, while those in Revelation expand on those from Daniel and provide more detail.

You have missed something Bert.

There are 10 toes at the end of time (the end of the statue), not 7...

This is where I think we have confused the 10 kings, of which 3 are subdued, with the 10 kings of Revelation 17.

Those kings come right at the very end after the time of the 7 kings.

[Bert]

Originally Posted By: John317

The Stone is Jesus Christ' date=' specifically at His second coming.

It is not the church, either the Christian church or the SDA Church.

Notice, the stone hits and "it" becomes a great mountain.

Quote:

Dan 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Notice.

In the "days" of these kings, Gods sets up a kingdom:

Quote:

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, [but'] it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

So during the time of these kings, God sets up a kingdom.

That kingdom is a stone that turns into a great mountain.

So far, what you have said is Biblical. However, clarification is needed here. The stone is 'cut out without hands', which tells us that it is of a divine nature, for no human entity can do that. Thus, it represents Christ's second coming. The 'stone' (Christ) crushes the great image, symbolically destroying all nations that exist at His coming. At the appropriate time, after His second coming that destroys all nations, He will set up His kingdom. You are correct in that statement. The only problem is a matter of timing, which will be discussed below.

What is a mountain in Bible prophecy?

A nation.

It is not a nation of human origin, it represents the kingdom of God. Revelation 21:3 tells us that God will 'tabernacle with men on this earth', but this is AFTER the millennial period of 1000 years.

So the stone hits the feet of the image.

The revelation of Christ is the stone, the revelation of righteousness by faith.

The 'stone' IS Christ, for the 'revelation of Jesus Christ' was written by John on the Isle of Patmos before the end of the 1st century. The very first verse in Revelation tells us that.

That happened during the reformation.

This stone hits during the reformation and becomes a great nation.

As pointed out above, the stone represents the coming of Christ, not His message. His message will have been given to the world before He comes.

The "kingdom" always refers to the "kingdom of God", which is the church of born again believers.

Here is the fallacy of your exegesis. Since the 'stone' crushes all of the nations from the 'head to the toes', there is nothing left on this earth...believers (are in heaven), or non-believers (dead from His coming), so how can there be a nation, or a kingdom, with people here? As I mentioned above, it is a matter of timing. God will set up His kingdom on this earth after His second coming, but it will be 1000 years afterwards.

------------------

Someone shared this with me a while back and it made a lot of sense.

Your thoughts?

[wayfinder]

Concerning "cutout without hands". My understanding on this is that, whereas the first kingdom of heaven (The Children of Israel) was taken out of Egypt "with a mighty hand", this kingdom sets itself apart from the kingdoms of the world. The fulfillment of this prophecy (Daniel 2, stone) was realized in the 15, or so, years leading up to 1844.

Matthew 25:1"Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

The "devine kingdom" is a kingdom of the heavens and not a kingdom of the earth, where the evil one rules. The kingdom of the heavens is in the world, but not of the world, the Son of God is the king.

Revelation 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals ; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10 "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God ; and they will reign upon the earth."

1844 would qualify as occuring during "in the days of those kings", specifically the kings during the time of the feet and ending with the toes (Revelation 17:12). The kingdom represented as "bridesmaids/virgins" was not brought out with a mighty hand, if fact they have, to this day, failed to see their "great dissapointment" as a fulfillment of prophecy. The only thing that separated them from the kingdom of the world was the prophecy of Daniel 8 (2300 evenings and mornings).

Daniel 8:18 'But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.'

Revelation 11:15Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, " The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."

These two verses fortell of the triumph of the kingdom of God. This is when the rock strikes the image... and becomes a great mountain and fills the whole earth.

Numbers 14:21 but indeed, as I live, all the earth will be filled with the glory of the LORD.

Revelation 22:1Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month ; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3There will no longer be any curse ; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; 4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: John317

The Stone is Jesus Christ, specifically at His second coming.

It is not the church, either the Christian church or the SDA Church.

Notice, the stone hits and "it" becomes a great mountain.

Quote:

Dan 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Notice.

In the "days" of these kings, Gods sets up a kingdom:

Quote:

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, [but] it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

So during the time of these kings, God sets up a kingdom.

That kingdom is a stone that turns into a great mountain.

What is a mountain in Bible prophecy?

A nation.

So the stone hits the feet of the image.

The revelation of Christ is the stone, the revelation of righteousness by faith.

That happened during the reformation.

This stone hits during the reformation and becomes a great nation.

The "kingdom" always refers to the "kingdom of God", which is the church of born again believers.

------------------

Someone shared this with me a while back and it made a lot of sense.

Your thoughts?

Simply not Biblical.

[miz3]

miz3, you are the one insisting on your private interpretation! The Bible says divided when you said it didn't say that! Now, you want to define the word "divided" to fulfill your personal beliefs.

My friend the Bible defines "division" as the "weak and the strong". That is the only division found in Daniel chapter two.

Any other definition of "divided" is a human made definition for Daniel chapter two and thus is not valid for Daniel chapter two.

This is the True FACT.

[Bert]

I know the traditions view is that the ten horns are the 7 toes.

But there is a problem here.

There are not 7 toes...

There are ten toes.

Quote:

Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Key points in revelation on this subject of the ten toes:

1. Their are ten kings, they have received no kingdom yet.

Very easily explained. When John was writing the book of Revelation, the Roman Empire was still in power, and remained as such until late in the fifth century. So from John's aspect, the ten kings, represented by the ten toes and ten horns, had not occurred, for they were in the future to him.

2. They receive power for one hour only.

Though some have taken this 'one hour' as being a literal time, which transposes on the 'one year in heaven is as 1000 years on earth' as given in scripture, would be about two weeks of literal time. Logically no government can form and govern in that short span of time. So there has to be another explanation. Some theologians recognize that Chapter 18 gives a more detailed explanation of events described in Rev. 17:12-17, and seems to intimate that the time involved is of a short duration, and may have been expressed as a result of John's viewing for a short time of the 'woman' and the 'beast' of Chapters 16 and the first part of 17.

3. They come after the 7 kings.

If you will read Chapter 17 carefully, you will see that verses 1 through 11, appear to be an explanation by one of the seven angels concerning the 'seven heads' of the beast in Revelation 13.

4. The 7 kings are Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, Papal Rome, USA, Papal USA.

There are three possible interpretive understandings of the seven kings; (1) According to the pattern of interpretation making the seven heads representative of all powers that opposed God's people and work on earth, irrespective of number, this statement would simply mean that a majority of the powers so represented had already passed off the stage of history. (2) Another interpretive explanation is that the 'five that had fallen' are Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome and the papacy up until the papacy received a 'deadly wound' that was administered when the papal head of Rome was taken captive in 1798 and died in captivity. (3) There are those who identify the first five heads of verse 10 as Egypt, Syria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece, the 'five that had fallen' by John's time when the vision was given.

Continuing on in Revelation 17, we come to verse 12, which starts an explanation of the ten kings from Revelation 13. It is apparent that these ten kings are the same as Daniel 7:24; Revelation 12:3, and 13:1,and appear to harmonize eschatologically with the corroborating scriptures. As pointed out above, these kings had not received their kingdoms yet from John's perspective.

After this timeline does the 10 kings appear.

Now if we accept Daniel 2 is Chronological, there are ten toes right at the end.

Not just 7.

So surely, with the confirmation from Revalation 17, we can see that they are powers that unite with the papacy at the very end.

(I have no idea who those powers will be, but they are something to watch for).

If I am way off of track, those that accept the traditional SDA interpretation, please correct me. :-)

You will need to explain how their are ten toes though and not seven, from the bible and bible alone. :-)

There are ten toes in Daniel, and ten horns in both Daniel and Revelation, But there is a 'little horn' that comes up and uproots three horns of the fourth beast in Daniel 7. This point is not brought out in Daniel 2, for it stops at the ten toes. The prophecies of Daniel appear to expand in further detail as they are received by Daniel, and in Revelation, the prophecies parallel those in Daniel, but provide more details about the 'little horn' power from an eschatological standpoint. Daniel 2 only provides the division of the Roman Empire, not any further from a nation building standpoint, but does terminate with the 'stone' crushing the image, signifying the Second Coming of Christ.

Mark :-)

[Bert]

It is not the 'division' itself that is 'partly strong and partly broken' (KJV), it is referring to the make-up of the divided kingdoms...some will be strong and some will be broken. We already know from Daniel 7 that three of the kingdoms will be uprooted by the 'little horn', and we know that the other seven still exist today.

[Bert]

Concerning "cutout without hands". My understanding on this is that, whereas the first kingdom of heaven (The Children of Israel) was taken out of Egypt "with a mighty hand", this kingdom sets itself apart from the kingdoms of the world. The fulfillment of this prophecy (Daniel 2, stone) was realized in the 15, or so, years leading up to 1844.

Then how do you reconcile the fact that when the stone strikes the image, that represents the nations of the world, that nations still exist after 1844? Also, the exodus from Egypt by the children of Israel is not the 'kingdom of heaven'.

Matthew 25:1"Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

The "devine kingdom" is a kingdom of the heavens and not a kingdom of the earth, where the evil one rules. The kingdom of the heavens is in the world, but not of the world, the Son of God is the king.

The 'kingdom of heaven' is in heaven, not on this earth; however, God will reign from this earth someday, after sin has been eradicated.

Revelation 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals ; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10 "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God ; and they will reign upon the earth."

1844 would qualify as occuring during "in the days of those kings", specifically the kings during the time of the feet and ending with the toes (Revelation 17:12). The kingdom represented as "bridesmaids/virgins" was not brought out with a mighty hand, if fact they have, to this day, failed to see their "great dissapointment" as a fulfillment of prophecy. The only thing that separated them from the kingdom of the world was the prophecy of Daniel 8 (2300 evenings and mornings).

This is a mixture of prophecies and parables.

Daniel 8:18 'But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.'

Revelation 11:15Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, " The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."

Revelation 11:15 is a precursor to Christ's Second Coming.

These two verses fortell of the triumph of the kingdom of God. This is when the rock strikes the image... and becomes a great mountain and fills the whole earth.

At the completion of the 1000 year millennial period, and the destruction of the wicked one and his followers.

Numbers 14:21 but indeed, as I live, all the earth will be filled with the glory of the LORD.

Revelation 22:1Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month ; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3There will no longer be any curse ; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; 4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads.

[wayfinder]

Quote:

Then how do you reconcile the fact that when the stone strikes the image, that represents the nations of the world, that nations still exist after 1844? Also, the exodus from Egypt by the children of Israel is not the 'kingdom of heaven'.

What makes God's kingdom "the kingdom of the heavens" is that God, who dwells in the heavens, is their God and His Son is their king; therefore they are a kingdom of the heavens. I explained that the kingdom of the heavens is not in the heavens but in the world, not of the world. Israel was a kingdom of the heavens, because their God was in the heavens and ruled in heaven, over the heavens. When God's kingdom triumphs over the kingdom of the world, they will ascend into the heavens and dwell with God for 1000 years. After 1000 years they will descend, with God, back to this earth. At that time the wicked will be rasied and receive their judgment along with the evil one and his angels.

In 1844 the kingdom was seperated from the kingdom of the world (cutout), but notice, the kingdom did not continue to the marriage feast, they fell asleep along the way. Just as with the children of Israel, God set them apart for a purpose. His plan was that through them the light of truth would be taken to the nations, this was their reason for God's calling them. History shows and the testimony of the Son of God verifies, that they never accomplished this. As for the last kingdom (bridesmaids) they must be awakened by the 144,000 bondservants, and prepared during "the shaking" at the end of which time they will be sealed (casting down of the censer). Then they along with the 144,000 (kingdom and priests) will proclaim the gospel of the kingdom to the nations and then the end will come (Revelation 11:15).

Daniel 8:10 It grew up to the host of heaven and caused some of the host and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down.

Matthew 13:41"The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,42and will throw them into the furnace of fire ; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.43"Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. (stars)

Daniel 12:3 "Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

Daniel 8:14 He said to me, "For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored."

The holy place is the scantuary in the heavens. The kingdom of the heavens scantuary is in the heavens, not on the earth, remember that the tabernacle was a copy of the scantuary in the heavens.

Revelation 11:19 NAS

And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened ; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

Quote:

This is a mixture of prophecies and parables.

Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables ?" 11Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.12"For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance ; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.13"Therefore I speak to them in parables ; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.14"In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, 'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND ; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE ;15FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'16"But blessed are your eyes, because they see ; and your ears, because they hear.17"For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

Please help me understand what you think makes the prophecy, given by the Son of God, a parable. Please explain how a parable has no application in reality. (see Matthew 21:33-46 and Isiah 5:1-7) Explain to me how these two great parables, had no specific meaning, function, or purpose, then tell me why we do not need to take any parable as specific to it's intended recipiant/s.

Matthew 24:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately , saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age ?"

This is a prophecy given by the greatest of all prophets, the Son of God.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John3:17

What are you talking about?

Originally Posted By: miz3

Your views on Daniel two and papal Rome.[/quote']

I'm not asking about the topic. I'm asking why you said what you did in the above. I never said any human kingdom comes after Rome. The second coming of Christ and the established of God's kingdom comes after the dividing of the Roman Empire.

The toes are Rome, but Rome divided, and when it became divided, Rome became papal Rome. It was no longer pagan Rome at that point. It is no longer pagan Rome now, but the divided nations of Europe.

[miz3]

It is not the 'division' itself that is 'partly strong and partly broken' (KJV), it is referring to the make-up of the divided kingdoms...some will be strong and some will be broken. We already know from Daniel 7 that three of the kingdoms will be uprooted by the 'little horn', and we know that the other seven still exist today.

The Fourth Kingdom which is Rome and in the Image is symbolized by the legs, feet, and toes is "divided" which means the Empire of Rome was "partly strong and partly weak".

This is just the simple FACT right from Daniel Chapter Two.

There is no other Biblical meaning to "divided" in Daniel chapter two. Any other meanings put forth are just plain not Biblical.

[miz3]

Rome as depicted in Daniel chapter two is the last kingdom mentioned. Rome did not divide and take on a different consistency. Rome just simply ceased to exist as depicted by the legs, feet, and toes.

Jesus Christ is the Rock that smashed all earthly kingdoms. The Birth, Life, Cross, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ established the Kingdom of Heaven symbolized by the Rock. The Rock is not the Second Coming because the Bible simply does not say that this action is the Second Coming and such an interpretation does not fit the time line of Daniel chapter two.

It is only if you put human interpretations and concepts on Daniel Chapter Two that you could ever come up with the Second Coming as the Rock action.

The Bible is very plain and simple without all the complications that humans are putting on Daniel chapter two all of which have no truth in them.

Why?

Again, because these human additions and complex scenarios are not Biblical. It is that simple.

[miz3]

The reason SDA Church .org interprets Daniel chapter two in the way it does is because Ellen White says this is the correct interpretation. Ellen White also believed and stated that Papal Rome was part of and an extension of Pagan Rome.

Thus, it is no surprise that the SDA Church .org would take up her same interpretation.

Whether Ellen White is the source of this interpretation and/or Ellen White merely reiterated this interpretation which she would naturally have gotten from her spiritual predecessors in the Protestant Reformation is not relevant because either way it is just human opinion and does not square with the plain and stated Word of God in Daniel Chapter Two.

[John317]

Rome as depicted in Daniel chapter two is the last kingdom mentioned. Rome did not divide and take on a different consistency. Rome just simply ceased to exist as depicted by the legs, feet, and toes.

The toes are the divided nations into which pagan Rome broke. The fourth Empire still exists, and will coninue to exist, until the second coming of Christ, but it is now papal Rome. The prophecy said that it would remain divided even though there would be attempts to unite it. That has been fulfilled, despite the efforts of quite a few European leaders to conquer it. The last one was Hitler, but before that, there were Napoleon, Kaisar Wilhelm, etc.

Arthur Maxwell wrote a book during World War II in which he predicted on the basis of Bible prophecy that Hitler would fail to conquer Europe. He was right. All such efforts will fail.

The little-horn power of Daniel 7 and 8 is papal Rome.

[John317]

The reason SDA Church .org interprets Daniel chapter two in the way it does is because Ellen White says this is the correct interpretation. Ellen White also believed and stated that Papal Rome was part of and an extension of Pagan Rome.

Ellen White was right in this. Historians agree with her. The pope was given the keys to Rome by the Emperor of Rome at the time the capital was moved from Rome to Constantinople. See the book, Two Babylons, for the documented evidence of this.

[John317]

Rome as depicted in Daniel chapter two is the last kingdom mentioned. Rome did not divide and take on a different consistency. Rome just simply ceased to exist as depicted by the legs, feet, and toes.

Rome divided into the various nations of Europe.

The legs of the statue represent the western and the eastern parts of the Roman Empire. The toes of the kingdom represent the nations of Western Europe, which are divided to this day, and will remain divided right down to the coming of our Savior.

[wayfinder]

I know this may be a little off topic (the stone), but since you brought it up.

The Roman empire, according to the prophecy in Daniel 7, not only ends, but is destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire (second death) the other three kingdoms (Lion, Bear, Leopard), had their dominion taken away (were not destroyed) an extention of life granted to them until an appointed time. These three kingdoms are the composite beast of Revelation 13, Rome is absent from this beast, because it was destroyed and burnt up.

Daniel 7:11"Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire. 12 "As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time.

Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority.

The division of the Roman Empire, west and east was represented by the two legs, as was the division of the Greek Empire by the two thighs, north and south. As for the papacy and it's corrosponding symboyl, that of a horn with eyes and a mouth, it's dominion was also taken away and completely destroyed forever, this was a judgement rendered by the court in heaven. This court "sat" during the time this horn was speaking boastfully.

Daniel 7:9 "I kept looking Until thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow And the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels were a burning fire.

Daniel 7:21 "I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them 22until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

Daniel 7:26 'But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.

As I see it, the saints took possession of the kingdom in 1844, but never completed their mission.

Revelation 3:2'Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die ; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God.