Who or what is the Stone in Daniel 2?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Rome as depicted in Daniel chapter two is the last kingdom mentioned. Rome did not divide and take on a different consistency. Rome just simply ceased to exist as depicted by the legs, feet, and toes.

The toes are the divided nations into which pagan Rome broke. The fourth Empire still exists, and will coninue to exist, until the second coming of Christ, but it is now papal Rome. The prophecy said that it would remain divided even though there would be attempts to unite it. That has been fulfilld, despite the efforts of quite a few European leaders to conquer it. The last one was Hitler, but before that, there were Napoleon, Kaisar Wilhelm, etc. Arthur Maxwell wrote a book during World War II in which he predicted on the basis of Bible prophecy that Hitler would fail to conquer Europe. He was right. All such efforts will fail.

The little-horn power of Daniel 7 and 8 is papal Rome.

[John317]

....The Roman empire, according to the prophecy in Daniel 7, not only ends, but is destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire (second death)

That won't happen until the second coming of Christ. The Roman Empire still exists, only under a different form. It exists under the form of the little-horn power.

2 Thes. 2:3-8

Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, [4] who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. [5] Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? [6] And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. [7] For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. [8] And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.

Originally Posted By: wayfinder

the other three kingdoms (Lion, Bear, Leopard), had their dominion taken away (were not destroyed) an extention of life granted to them until an appointed time.

Yes, the power of those kingdoms was forever remove, but the people of those kingdoms exist today.

Originally Posted By: wayfinder

These three kingdoms are the composite beast of Revelation 13, Rome is absent from this beast, because it was destroyed and burnt up.

The papal Roman Empire is a composite of all the previous kingdoms. That is, papal Rome has all the characteristics of those previous kingdoms and is led by Satan in his warfare against the truth just as he used those other powers to attack the people of God.

Originally Posted By: wayinder

The division of the Roman Empire, west and east was represented by the two legs, as was the division of the Greek Empire by the two thighs, north and south.

I agree.

Originally Posted By: wayfinder

As for the papacy and it's corrosponding symboyl, that of a horn with eyes and a mouth, it's dominion was also taken away and completely destroyed forever, this was a judgement rendered by the court in heaven. This court "sat" during the time this horn was speaking boastfully.

The judgment was rendered, yes, but the sentence has obviously not been executed. It won't be executed until Christ's return in glory. The papacy still exists today and is very powerful, so it obviously has not been completely destroyed forever.

The papacy and all of Babylon receives the 7 last plagues. See Rev. 16-18.

The Three Angels' Messages are proclaimed to the whole world in order to call people out of Babylon, which includes the Roman Catholic Church. The purpose of calling them out is so that sincere, honest Christians won't be subject to the plagues, but will be prepared for Christ's second coming.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

The reason SDA Church .org interprets Daniel chapter two in the way it does is because Ellen White says this is the correct interpretation. Ellen White also believed and stated that Papal Rome was part of and an extension of Pagan Rome.

Ellen White was right in this. Historians agree with her. The pope was given the keys to Rome by the Emperor of Rome at the time the capital was moved from Rome to Constantinople. See the book, Two Babylons, for the documented evidence of this.

[John317]

The bottom line is that history shows that Ellen White was right in what she said about papal Rome being a continuation of pagan Rome. The Bible supports this veiw in Daniel 7 and 8 and 11 as well as in the Apocalypse.

The fact that virtually all the great Reformers understood this truth-- and that it was taught by most protestants from the 1600s to 1900-- is not a mark against the position they took.

[John317]

...6. Arthur Maxwell is not mentioned in Daniel chapter two as God's interpreter of Daniel chapter two.

No one suggested that the Bible mentions Arthur Maxwell. However, the fact that he understood the prophecies is proved by his accuracy in what he wrote concerning Hitler long before the end of WWII.

Here's Bible truth: Europe will never again be united as one kingdom. It will always remain divided into separate nations. No human being will be able to unite them. That's the prophecy of Daniel 2.

[miz3]

The bottom line is that history shows that Ellen White was right in what she said about papal Rome being a continuation of pagan Rome. The Bible supports this veiw in Daniel 7 and 8 and 11 as well as in the Apocalypse.

The fact that virtually all the great Reformers understood this truth-- and that it was taught by most protestants from the 1600s to 1900-- is not a mark against the position they took.

The FACT is the Protestant Reformers were just humans who had their opinions. Thus, their view carries no weight as regards to Truth.

These same Reformers were also extremely wrong about a whole lot of things in regard to the Bible. The SDA Church .org disagrees strongly with numerous positions of these same reformers. So to cite them as taking some position is not valid in the least bit. They are not reliable in all things.

The Bible is the only reliable Source. I will believe what the Bible says. Others can believe the Reformers and/or any other sources (like Ellen White and certain historians) if they want. However, the Bible is the ONLY RELIABLE SOURCE FOR TRUTH FROM GOD.

The Bible/God disagree with what the Reformers believed about Daniel chapter two and so do I. The Bible is the Standard of Truth and the Reformers/Other sources (like Ellen White, historians, theologians, etc.) are never ever the standard of any Truth. They had opinions and that is all they had and still have unless they agree with the Bible and in the case (Daniel chapter two) the Reformers do not agree with the what the Bible says in Daniel chapter two.

So we cannot look to the Reformers and/or any other nonBiblical sources for evidence because they are not credible.

Second, history has not proven Ellen White to be correct either about the papacy and/or Daniel chapter two. Some humans agree with her views and many do not agree with her views. Ellen White was entitled to her opinions just as were the Reformers. However when Ellen White and the Bible disagree which they do in regard to Daniel chapter two, then we must go with the Bible and not with Ellen White.

Third, here is another evidence that Ellen White and the Bible do not agree. This is for those on this forum who want to know where Ellen White and the Bible are not in agreement.

People are entitled to their opinions but these opinions are not valid. We have seen/shown what the Bible actually says and thus there is no more room for any other things, such as, human opinion, or human views of history (where many humans disagree with each other) and/or any other human things including preconceived ideas and human overwriting of the Scripture.

[miz3]

Rome divided into the various nations of Europe.

The legs of the statue represent the western and the eastern parts of the Roman Empire. The toes of the kingdom represent the nations of Western Europe, which are divided to this day, and will remain divided right down to the coming of our Savior.

That is just a human opinion.

The Bible in Daniel chapter two says absolutely NONE OF THESE THINGS you cited in the quote above.

There is not even a "single word" in what is said above that is found in Daniel chapter two.

This is human thought and is not what the Bible actually says in Daniel chapter two.

[miz3]

No one suggested that the Bible mentions Arthur Maxwell. However, the fact that he understood the prophecies is proved by his accuracy in what he wrote concerning Hitler long before the end of WWII.

Here's Bible truth: Europe will never again be united as one kingdom. It will always remain divided into separate nations. No human being will be able to unite them. That's the prophecy of Daniel 2.

None of this is found in Daniel chapter two.

Thus, it is not Biblical. As such it is not true and only expresses the erroneous thoughts of the human mind.

[John317]

...

Daniel chapter two also does not say the toes aren't the divided kingdom, does it?

On the other hand, the books of Daniel and Revelation show evidence that the toes of the statue represent the fourth kingdom as it exists down in the last days before Christ returns.

Notice that the legs are of iron. Rome was the Iron Kingdom.

But the feet of the statue consist of iron and clay. This is clear proof that the fourth kingdom exists in different forms, first the Iron Kingdom, and then the separate nations that the Iron Kingdom broke into.

What is the "seed of men"?

Daniel 2:43 says,

"And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay."

NOTE: "THEY" shall mingle "THEMSELVES" with the seed of men. It does not say "IT shall mingle ITSELF with the seed of men." This shows clearly that the fourth kingdom would become divided into separate nations.

Why will "THEY" do this?

The answer is that "they" do this for the purpose of helping the divided kingdoms to come together.

Yet the text says, "But they shall not cleave one to another."

What do we find in history in relation to the nations of Europe? We find that there were frequent attempts on the part of European leaders to unite the nations through marriage agreements. But those agreements failed to bring the unity they were seeking.

The prophecy is that these separate kingdoms will be in existence when the statue is crushed by the Rock. We are living during that period-- at the time the Rock stikes the toes of the statue. All the signs and prophecies tell us this.

[miz3]

[color:#CC0000]Daniel chapter two no where says:

1. The toes are the divided kingdoms.

[miz3]

On the other hand, the books of Daniel and Revelation show evidence that the toes of the statue represent the fourth kingdom as it exists down in the last days before Christ returns.

Notice that the legs are of iron. Rome was the Iron Kingdom.

But the feet of the statue consist of iron and clay. This is clear proof that the fourth kingdom exists in different forms, first the Iron Kingdom, and then the separate nations that the Iron Kingdom broke into.

What is the "seed of men"?

Daniel 2:43 says,

"And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay."

NOTE: "THEY" shall mingle "THEMSELVES" with the seed of men. It does not say "IT shall mingle ITSELF with the seed of men." This shows clearly that the fourth kingdom would become divided into separate nations.

Why will "THEY" do this?

The answer is that "they" do this for the purpose of helping the divided kingdoms to come together.

Yet the text says, "But they shall not cleave one to another."

What do we find in history in relation to the nations of Europe? We find that there were frequent attempts on the part of European leaders to unite the nations through marriage agreements. But those agreements failed to bring the unity they were seeking.

The prophecy is that these separate kingdoms will be in existence when the statue is crushed by the Rock. We are living during that period-- at the time the Rock stikes the toes of the statue. All the signs and prophecies tell us this.

1. We are talking only about Daniel chapter two. However your assertion that the Books of Daniel and Revelation taken together "show that the fourth kingdom exists down to the last days before Christ returns", is wrong because the Bible actually does not show that.

To come to such a conclusion you must use outside data than the Bible and by human invalid reasoning shape the Bible to fit your human assertion.

Taking the Bible and the Bible only to interpret what the Bible means you cannot come to such a conclusion.

2. Yes Rome was an Iron Kingdom but it was also a Clay Kingdom as well. Right from its inception Rome was both an Iron and Clay Kingdom. It was stronger at the beginning than at the end.

However the Bible does not say anywhere in Daniel chapter two that there was any other entity other Rome. That means no papacy, not European nations, etc.

In fact Daniel chapter states clearly that the iron mixed with clay refers ONLY TO being "partly strong and partly weak".

It does not refer to any papacy, any European entities past or present or future in any combination whatsoever. To assert such is to assert the things of human devising.

We can only keep repeating the Truth no matter how many times you want to inject human error into the discussion by your own words.

3. There is no need to discuss Europe in any way because Daniel chapter two has nothing whatsoever to do with anything past, and/or present, and/or future with Europe.

If you want to inject Europe why stop there. The practices and conditions you cite are also true about Far East (India, Persia, China, Russia {both European Russia and Asian Russia}, the Middle East (Syria, Irag, Saudia Arabria, Turkey, etc.), and Africa (Egypt, North Africa, Middle Africa, and South Africa).

Shall we also include these other entities as well, since they are no different than Europe. All of these entities have at one time or other felt the power of the papacy. If you go down this road then go all the way.

If the Stone is to crush all the kingdoms of the World why do you limit your view only to Europe and Western Culture. This fact alone dooms such a view. Either we use the whole world in your assertion or the stone only crushes Europe and Western Culture at the Second Coming. Surely we can all see how foolish this assertion is. However such is the assertion is the limited assertion of the Reformers, Ellen White, and the SDA Church .org.

This shows that the view you espouse is nothing more then a European, Western Culture view of Truth. It does not include most of the rest of world. This would make it essentially a "white mans" prophecy.

These are the implications of such human additions to the Bible. It becomes a mess and so tangled and convoluted as to boggle the mind.

We must in order to really know truth, stick to exactly what the Bible and the Bible only says and what the Bible and the Bible only states is the interpretation of the vision.

We can then see how foolish this road is because such a road, including Europe is not Biblical but is in fact of human devising.

We have no choice if we want to know the Truth but to limit our understanding only to what the Bible actually states in Daniel chapter two.

[John317]

Daniel chapter two no where says:

1. The toes are the divided kingdoms.

Originally Posted By: John317

.....Daniel chapter two also does not say the toes aren't the divided kingdom, does it?

Originally Posted By: miz3

1. If the Bible does not affirm it then it is not valid.

2. Because the Bible does not say that something is "not so" does not mean that it such is OK or such is the Truth.

That's just it, miz3: the Bible does confirm it.

What I am saying is that the Bible does not contain the words, "The toes are the divided kingdoms." Yet neither does it contain the words, "The toes are a single nation."

However, just because the Bible does not specifically say exactly what you think it should say, it doesn't mean the Bible doen't teach a particular concept or idea. To find the truth of Scripture, it is very often necessary to dig for it beneath the surface.

Not everyone is going to be persuaded by Bible truth. We can't expect everyone to be convinced of it or to agree with it. Many people don't want to believe the truth and are resistent to it. The Scriptures don't hold out the hope that the majority of people will accept the truth. On the contrary, prophecy teaches that only a relative few will accept the truth and be saved. Jesus said the road is narrow that leads to salvation and few are traveling on it. The crowds are on the road headed to destruction.

[Twilight II]

So far, what you have said is Biblical. However, clarification is needed here. The stone is 'cut out without hands', which tells us that it is of a divine nature, for no human entity can do that. Thus, it represents Christ's second coming. What is a mountain in Bible prophecy?

A nation.

[color:#3366FF]It is not a nation of human origin, it represents the kingdom of God. Revelation 21:3 tells us that God will 'tabernacle with men on this earth', but this is AFTER the millennial period of 1000 years.

[Twilight II]

The question really is Bert, when does the stone grow into a great mountain?

Is it at the second coming?

Or is it during the time of the statue and before the second coming.

That seems to be the pivotal point.

[Twilight II]

Question to all that think the toes are divided Europe.

Why does the statue have 10 toes and not 7?

[John317]

....So the stone hits the feet of the image.

The revelation of Christ is the stone, the revelation of righteousness by faith.

That happened during the reformation.

This stone hits during the reformation and becomes a great nation.

But is what happened during the reformation a fulfillment of the prophecy:

Daniel 2:44-45

"And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever, [45] just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold."

Did the Reformation break in pieces all those kingdoms and bring them to an end?

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

....So the stone hits the feet of the image.

The revelation of Christ is the stone, the revelation of righteousness by faith.

That happened during the reformation.

This stone hits during the reformation and becomes a great nation.

But is what happened during the reformation a fulfillment of the prophecy:

Daniel 2:44-45

"And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever, [45] just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold."

Did the Reformation break in pieces all those kingdoms and bring them to an end?

Not yet John317, but what if it is yet future?

If the kingdom grows (reformation onwards) and ultimately end up destroying the pagan beast of Daniel 2, then it would fit.

Also there is a reference to the watchman standing on the walls of Babylon and they bring it down.

Not sure what that means though.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Daniel chapter two no where says:

1. The toes are the divided kingdoms.

Originally Posted By: John317

.....Daniel chapter two also does not say the toes aren't the divided kingdom, does it?

Originally Posted By: miz3

1. If the Bible does not affirm it then it is not valid.

2. Because the Bible does not say that something is "not so" does not mean that it such is OK or such is the Truth.

That's just it, miz3: the Bible does confirm it.

What I am saying is that the Bible does not contain the words, "The toes are the divided kingdoms." Yet neither does it contain the words, "The toes are a single nation."

However, just because the Bible does not specifically say exactly what you think it should say, it doesn't mean the Bible doen't teach a particular concept or idea. To find the truth of Scripture, it is very often necessary to dig for it beneath the surface.

Not everyone is going to be persuaded by Bible truth. We can't expect everyone to be convinced of it or to agree with it. Many people don't want to believe the truth and are resistent to it. The Scriptures don't hold out the hope that the majority of people will accept the truth. On the contrary, prophecy teaches that only a relative few will accept the truth and be saved. Jesus said the road is narrow that leads to salvation and few are traveling on it. The crowds are on the road headed to destruction.

The Bible does not confirm what you say it does.

I am sorry but once again you get it wrong. The Bible however does say that the the legs, feet, and toes are a single nation. It is impossible to escape this Biblical FACT in Daniel chapter two.

You say dig where there is nothing but human innuendo, preconceptions, human add ons, etc. etc.

The Bible never ever buries FACTS that need to be hunted out by only the smart and the elite ones who have been educated to do such things. 1Corinthians chapter two disagrees with such an assessment of Bible study and research. This is why uneducated ones can know the Truth.

God does not work the way you say. What you say is just a fundamental excuse to bring in all kinds of erroneous interpretations of Scripture that are nothing but human mumbo jumbo/gibberish.

You are correct that most are resistant to Biblical Truth and that is because they want to bring in all their preconceived notions, outside sources, theological structures, academic tools, etc. etc.

The Disciples of Jesus Christ never ever used such devices in order for them to know the Biblical Truth. In FACT God told them the Holy Spirit would bring them into all Truth. In this the Disciples were in absolute unity with 1Corinthians chapter two.

Thus, I have to wonder about your conclusions which are based on preconceived notions, outside sources, theological structures and academic tools. Your conclusions cannot be True because they are based on all those things in order to come such conclusions as you have made.

This is why my conclusions are based solely on what the Bible actually says and not on some digging tools that are human in nature and filled with all the human flaws and thus can never ever know Truth.

[Bert]

What makes God's kingdom "the kingdom of the heavens" is that God, who dwells in the heavens, is their God and His Son is their king; therefore they are a kingdom of the heavens.

God's kingdom is heaven, and that is where it is located now. It will not come to this earth until after the 1000 year millennium. In Revelation 21, John writes that he saw in vision the holy city...the New Jerusalem...coming down to this earth. Then in verse 3, John wrote, "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God." At this time, God's kingdom will be on this earth, and not before. Right now, this earth is a problem to God, but He has a plan that will solve this problem.

I explained that the kingdom of the heavens is not in the heavens but in the world, not of the world.

The inference that 'the kingdom of the heavens is not in the heavens but in the world, not of the world' does not apply to a kingdom, but to the way that Christians should live and conduct their lives, realizing that we must live in this world, but not be of the world and its lustful pleasures. Christ made the point that His kingdom was not of this world in Matthew 18:36.

Israel was a kingdom of the heavens, because their God was in the heavens and ruled in heaven, over the heavens.

Israel was God's chosen people for the purpose of preparing the world for the forthcoming Messiah...a mission in which they failed miserably. They alternately followed God, then fell into sin and worship of idols, became captives, then were freed by God after they had repented. This process was repeated over and over until Christ came, at which time they were under the yoke of the Roman Empire.

When God's kingdom triumphs over the kingdom of the world, they will ascend into the heavens and dwell with God for 1000 years. After 1000 years they will descend, with God, back to this earth. At that time the wicked will be rasied and receive their judgment along with the evil one and his angels.

You are referring to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, which will involve all of His believers and followers that are part of His redeemed, regardless of their ethnic background.

In 1844 the kingdom was seperated from the kingdom of the world (cutout),

The year 1844 is only significant in that the 2300 day/year prophecy terminated in that year. It is believed that in 1844 Christ entered the heavenly sanctuary to perform His priestly duties as given in Hebrews. No kingdoms are involved.

but notice, the kingdom did not continue to the marriage feast, they fell asleep along the way.

Again, this is a mixture of prophecy and parables. The reference to 1844 is a prophetic event, whereas the marriage feast in the parable of the ten virgins is exactly that...a parable.

Just as with the children of Israel, God set them apart for a purpose. His plan was that through them the light of truth would be taken to the nations, this was their reason for God's calling them. History shows and the testimony of the Son of God verifies, that they never accomplished this.

I am not certain of your premise, but it appears that you are commenting on the failure of Israel to fulfill their mission of preparing the world for the coming Messiah.

As for the last kingdom (bridesmaids) they must be awakened by the 144,000 bondservants, and prepared during "the shaking" at the end of which time they will be sealed (casting down of the censer).

Again, you are mixing prophecy and parables. The 'bridesmaids' are part of the ten virgins parable. The 144,000 is part of the prophecies in Revelation that relate to those who are redeemed at the coming of Christ. The 'shaking' is the process that occurs near the end of time when the true church undergoes a loss of those who leave the church for one reason or another. Those who are sealed are those who will be among the redeemed.

Then they along with the 144,000 (kingdom and priests) will proclaim the gospel of the kingdom to the nations and then the end will come (Revelation 11:15).

The gospel message will have been finished before the 144,000 prophecy. There are different interpretations of the composition of the 144,000.

Daniel 8:10 It grew up to the host of heaven and caused some of the host and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down.

Daniel 8:10 is one of the verses that deal with the prophecy of the goat and the ram, and symbolically makes reference to Grecia, Medo-Persia and the Roman Empire.

Matthew 13:41"The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,42and will throw them into the furnace of fire ; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.43"Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. (stars)

The verse above is part of a parable of the tares by Christ that concerns last day events.[/u]

Daniel 8:14 He said to me, "For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored."

I'm not sure what Bible version you are using, but that verse reads in the KJV - "And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." The process of cleansing in the heavenly realm is the type of the annual cleansing of the earthly sanctuary as the anti-type. The earthly sanctuary was not 'restored', it went through the process of 'cleansing', using the blood of the sacrificial goat/lamb.

The holy place is the scantuary in the heavens. The kingdom of the heavens scantuary is in the heavens, not on the earth, remember that the tabernacle was a copy of the scantuary in the heavens.

True, except the reference to the 'holy place'. The entire earthly sanctuary was cleansed.

[Bert]

Quote:

I am sorry but once again you get it wrong. The Bible however does say that the the legs, feet, and toes are a single nation. It is impossible to escape this Biblical FACT in Daniel chapter two.

Daniel 2:42 is the verse you are basing all of your premise on, and disregarding verse 43, which explains in more detail. The residue of the Roman Empire...the legs of iron that breaks out into ten toes...are the ten kingdoms, or powers, that arise out of the Roman Empire and 'mix with the seed of men'. From the Roman Empire came the nations of Germany, England, France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, etc., of today. They do not belong to the Roman Empire. To make the equation easier, answer the following questions:

1) Is the Roman Empire still the predominant power in that part of the world today?

2) Are the countries of Europe still subservient to the Roman Empire today?

3) On a different approach, if I have an apple (Roman Empire) and divide it into ten pieces and give them to ten different persons, do I still have a whole apple? Do the ten pieces still retain their origin to my apple, but not the ownership? Can I have a whole apple if I divide it into ten pieces?

4) If I have 100 acres of land (Roman Empire) and ten people take it away from me and divide my land into ten different plots, what do I have left...100 acres still, or nothing?

You say dig where there is nothing but human innuendo, preconceptions, human add ons, etc. etc.

The Bible never ever buries FACTS that need to be hunted out by only the smart and the elite ones who have been educated to do such things. 1Corinthians chapter two disagrees with such an assessment of Bible study and research. This is why uneducated ones can know the Truth.

God does not work the way you say. What you say is just a fundamental excuse to bring in all kinds of erroneous interpretations of Scripture that are nothing but human mumbo jumbo/gibberish.

You are correct that most are resistant to Biblical Truth and that is because they want to bring in all their preconceived notions, outside sources, theological structures, academic tools, etc. etc.

The Disciples of Jesus Christ never ever used such devices in order for them to know the Biblical Truth. In FACT God told them the Holy Spirit would bring them into all Truth. In this the Disciples were in absolute unity with 1Corinthians chapter two.

Thus, I have to wonder about your conclusions which are based on preconceived notions, outside sources, theological structures and academic tools. Your conclusions cannot be True because they are based on all those things in order to come such conclusions as you have made.

This is why my conclusions are based solely on what the Bible actually says and not on some digging tools that are human in nature and filled with all the human flaws and thus can never ever know Truth.

In regards to your comments above, I refer you to Isaiah 28:9 and 10, which say, "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10) For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little." This tells us how to read and understand the Bible. You just can't take one word, or a phrase, and come to a complete conclusion as to its exegesis without exploring for a confirmatory scripture or scriptures. In the case of the ten toes as a precept, its meaning is confirmed by the precepts in Daniel 7 with the ten horns, and which is also in Revelation 13.

[Bert]

Originally Posted By: Bert

It is not the 'division' itself that is 'partly strong and partly broken' (KJV), it is referring to the make-up of the divided kingdoms...some will be strong and some will be broken. We already know from Daniel 7 that three of the kingdoms will be uprooted by the 'little horn', and we know that the other seven still exist today.

The Fourth Kingdom which is Rome and in the Image is symbolized by the legs, feet, and toes is "divided" which means the Empire of Rome was "partly strong and partly weak".

This is just the simple FACT right from Daniel Chapter Two.

There is no other Biblical meaning to "divided" in Daniel chapter two. Any other meanings put forth are just plain not Biblical.

Here are the FACTs from Britannica Encyclopedia. The Roman Empire split in half in A.D. 395, becoming the eastern and the western empires. The western part suffered severe pressure from the barbarians. Rome was sacked by the Visgoths in A.D. 410, and the western empire fell to German invaders in A.D. 476, and the east continued as the Byzantine Empire until 1453, when it fell to the control of the Ottomans. The east part of the church came under the leadership of the church in Constaninople, and has remained separate to this day. The recent Popes have visited the east in recent years after hundreds of years of separation. The fall of Rome that is pertinent to the Jewish nation, the basis for the interpretation of prophecies affecting them, occurred in A.D. 476. From that point on, those tribes and groups that were under Roman rulership gathered together and formed different countries and nations that forms Europe today. Thus it fulfills the prophecies of the ten toes and the ten horns.

No matter how you stretch it, the Roman Empire no longer exists. Rome is just a city in the country of Italy now.

[miz3]

Quote:

I am sorry but once again you get it wrong. The Bible however does say that the the legs, feet, and toes are a single nation. It is impossible to escape this Biblical FACT in Daniel chapter two.

Daniel 2:42 is the verse you are basing all of your premise on, and disregarding verse 43, which explains in more detail. The residue of the Roman Empire...the legs of iron that breaks out into ten toes...are the ten kingdoms, or powers, that arise out of the Roman Empire and 'mix with the seed of men'. From the Roman Empire came the nations of Germany, England, France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, etc., of today. They do not belong to the Roman Empire. To make the equation easier, answer the following questions:

1) Is the Roman Empire still the predominant power in that part of the world today?

2) Are the countries of Europe still subservient to the Roman Empire today?

3) On a different approach, if I have an apple (Roman Empire) and divide it into ten pieces and give them to ten different persons, do I still have a whole apple? Do the ten pieces still retain their origin to my apple, but not the ownership? Can I have a whole apple if I divide it into ten pieces?

4) If I have 100 acres of land (Roman Empire) and ten people take it away from me and divide my land into ten different plots, what do I have left...100 acres still, or nothing?

You say dig where there is nothing but human innuendo, preconceptions, human add ons, etc. etc.

The Bible never ever buries FACTS that need to be hunted out by only the smart and the elite ones who have been educated to do such things. 1Corinthians chapter two disagrees with such an assessment of Bible study and research. This is why uneducated ones can know the Truth.

God does not work the way you say. What you say is just a fundamental excuse to bring in all kinds of erroneous interpretations of Scripture that are nothing but human mumbo jumbo/gibberish.

You are correct that most are resistant to Biblical Truth and that is because they want to bring in all their preconceived notions, outside sources, theological structures, academic tools, etc. etc.

The Disciples of Jesus Christ never ever used such devices in order for them to know the Biblical Truth. In FACT God told them the Holy Spirit would bring them into all Truth. In this the Disciples were in absolute unity with 1Corinthians chapter two.

Thus, I have to wonder about your conclusions which are based on preconceived notions, outside sources, theological structures and academic tools. Your conclusions cannot be True because they are based on all those things in order to come such conclusions as you have made.

This is why my conclusions are based solely on what the Bible actually says and not on some digging tools that are human in nature and filled with all the human flaws and thus can never ever know Truth.

In regards to your comments above, I refer you to Isaiah 28:9 and 10, which say, "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10) For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little." This tells us how to read and understand the Bible. You just can't take one word, or a phrase, and come to a complete conclusion as to its exegesis without exploring for a confirmatory scripture or scriptures. In the case of the ten toes as a precept, its meaning is confirmed by the precepts in Daniel 7 with the ten horns, and which is also in Revelation 13.

1. I am sorry Bert but verse forty-three does not say that.

"As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay."

Daniel 2:42-43.

Notice that verse forty-three does not say that the toes break into other kingdoms. Verse forty-two says the toes are part of this fourth kingdom. The toes are not a separate kingdom.

You have the Bible before you and it is clear that it does not say anything like what you are saying because you are adding things to what this clear Word of God actually says.

You illustration has nothing to do with nothing in terms of what the Bible actually says. The Bible does not use the word "divide". That is your word imposed on the Word of God.

2. Daniel chapter seven does not support you view of Daniel chapter two. Once again you are adding things to the Word of God that are not there.

[miz3]

Here are the FACTs from Britannica Encyclopedia. The Roman Empire split in half in A.D. 395, becoming the eastern and the western empires. The western part suffered severe pressure from the barbarians. Rome was sacked by the Visgoths in A.D. 410, and the western empire fell to German invaders in A.D. 476, and the east continued as the Byzantine Empire until 1453, when it fell to the control of the Ottomans. The east part of the church came under the leadership of the church in Constaninople, and has remained separate to this day. The recent Popes have visited the east in recent years after hundreds of years of separation. The fall of Rome that is pertinent to the Jewish nation, the basis for the interpretation of prophecies affecting them, occurred in A.D. 476. From that point on, those tribes and groups that were under Roman rulership gathered together and formed different countries and nations that forms Europe today. Thus it fulfills the prophecies of the ten toes and the ten horns.

No matter how you stretch it, the Roman Empire no longer exists. Rome is just a city in the country of Italy now.

The Encyclopedia "whatever" holds no authority as to what Scripture actually says. In your view does this "source" trump what the Bible actually says? Does this "source" have the standing to interpret what God says in the Bible?

Maybe we should all study the Encyclopedia instead of studying the Bible to know what God wants us to know. Is that what you are advocating?

Maybe the Encyclopedia is "inspired".

[Alchemy]

The reason SDA Church .org interprets Daniel chapter two in the way it does is because Ellen White says this is the correct interpretation. Ellen White also believed and stated that Papal Rome was part of and an extension of Pagan Rome.

Thus, it is no surprise that the SDA Church .org would take up her same interpretation.

Whether Ellen White is the source of this interpretation and/or Ellen White merely reiterated this interpretation which she would naturally have gotten from her spiritual predecessors in the Protestant Reformation is not relevant because either way it is just human opinion and does not square with the plain and stated Word of God in Daniel Chapter Two.

@ miz3,

All you do is spout your opinion without any Biblical or historical support! Rome didn't just cease to exist, it broke apart and was divided. This is the second point I have proven you wrong on.

[Alchemy]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Rome as depicted in Daniel chapter two is the last kingdom mentioned. Rome did not divide and take on a different consistency. Rome just simply ceased to exist as depicted by the legs, feet, and toes.

The toes are the divided nations into which pagan Rome broke. The fourth Empire still exists, and will coninue to exist, until the second coming of Christ, but it is now papal Rome. The prophecy said that it would remain divided even though there would be attempts to unite it. That has been fulfilled, despite the efforts of quite a few European leaders to conquer it. The last one was Hitler, but before that, there were Napoleon, Kaisar Wilhelm, etc.

Arthur Maxwell wrote a book during World War II in which he predicted on the basis of Bible prophecy that Hitler would fail to conquer Europe. He was right. All such efforts will fail.

The little-horn power of Daniel 7 and 8 is papal Rome.

Excellent point John317,

The parallel prophecy of Papal Rome does not come from Daniel 2, but from chapters 7 and 8.

But, Rome has never existed as the world power it was in the past. The Roman Empire fell from that large state it once held and was broken down through military invasions.