Christ Resurrected On Saturday Morning

[Q.E.D.]

It literally reads, "early on [the] first of the week."

The reason virtually all translations read this way is that it is the only correct way to translate it.

Do you know of any competant Greek scholar who has translated it as you've given it? If so, please quote it and give the translator's name and the title of the translation.

I can give a list of over 60 highly regarded translations which consistently translate 'proi prote sabbatou' as "early on [the] first [day] of the week." This is in harmony with all the Greek-English lexicons and dictionaries as well as with all Greek grammars used in colleges and universities for the teaching of koine Greek.

[Lysimachus]

The good news is, is that the Wednesday Crucifixion theory has been soundly, exegetically, and scholastically demolished into smithereens:

http://www.wednesdaycrucifixion.com/ - Page 1

http://www.wednesdaycrucifixion.com/wednesdaycrucifixion.html - Page 2

http://www.wednesdaycrucifixion.com/wednesday-crucifixion.html - Page 3

The bad news is, that "Seventh Day" (SD) is actually the same person as "Gerhard Ebersoehn" (GE) from the Topix forum:

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/seventh-day-adventist/TRJTT2L2O1BT9NOVT/p7#c139

In a nutshell, he's on a mission to redefine Adventism, and make out Satan's goat to be the Lord's goat (or the Lord's twin?), rejects the Investigative Judgment, and will exercise everything in his power to try and make Adventism adapt to his views.

Not that he doesn't have a right to disagree, but just letting you know what you're up against.

[John317]

...You see, the majority can also be wrong.

Sure, you're right about that. The majority can certainly be wrong. But my point is that we have to go by the evidence, and it is clear to me that the weight of evidence sides definitely with the traslation, "early on the first day of the week."

Another point worth looking at here is the fact that it's best to go by the translations unless one is himself a competent translator and can show good grammatical and exegeical reasons for one's distinctive translation. It's a dangerous thing for everyone to feel that he is the best judge of what the Greek says.

In this case, why should the readers on the Forum believe what you say about the Greek and reject what hundreds of the best professional translators say about it?

I've presented evidence that the word sabbatou in the Septuagint is correctly translated "week." It supports the use of sabbatou as found in Mark 16: 9.

I recently bought a copy of a new translation of the NT by N.T. Wright, titled, The Kingdom New Testament (2011). Wright is one of the world's leading New Testamnt scholars. He translates Mark 16: 9, "When Jesus was raised, early on the first day of the week, he appeared first of all to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons."

[Samie]

Hi John317;

As for the usage of "sabbatou" in the Septuagint, you mentioned:

Do you have a copy of the Greek Septuagint? If so, look at Psalm 94. It contains the heading "A Psalm of David For the Fourth Day of the Week."

Notice the Greek translation of "the Fourth Day of the Week." The word for "week" is Sabbatou, the same word that occurs in Mark 16: 9. It also does not contain the word "day."

Also notice the heading of Ps. 48: "A Psalm of praise for the sons of Core on the second day of the week."

Again, the Greek word for "week" is the exact same word, sabbatou, which occurs in Mark 16: 9. And as before, it omits the word "day."

[John317]

Because the Septuagint is in Greek the same scenario in the translation of "sabbatou" in Ps 47 of the LXX (Ps 48 in English) & "sabbatwn" in Ps 93 of LXX (Ps 94 in English) exists just like in Mark 16:9.

Can you explain from a grammatical viewpoint why the translators of the Septuagint were wrong to translate "deutera sabbatou" as "the second day of the week" and "tetradi sabbatou" as "fourth day of the week"?

[Samie]

Sure, you're right about that. The majority can certainly be wrong. But my point is that we have to go by the evidence, and it is clear to me that the weight of evidence sides definitely with the traslation, "early on the first day of the week."

That's your choice, John. I don't question that.

But is it ABSOLUTELY wrong to translate "prote" into "chief"? Acts 16:12 already had it. It is therefore certainly NOT INCORRECT to translate "prote sabbatou" into "of the chief sabbath".

[John317]

Before looking to some kind of doctrinal conspiracy as an explanation for the way sabbatou is translated, I would recommend examining the linguistic and grammatical evidence. Whether it is translated "chief sabbath" or "first [day] of the week" has nothing to do with whether the translator is a Sabbath keeper or a Sunday keeper.

Originally Posted By: Samie

I'm afraid there is. "sabbatou" refers to but a day; "week" refers to 7 days.

sabbatou may refer to the Sabbath or to the entire week, since the week consists of seven days. This is something that you can find in all NT Greek grammars and Greek-English lexicons.

Consider these examples:

Luke 18:12

I fast twice a week [Gk dis tou sabbatou]; I give tithes of all that I get.'

1 Cor. 16:2

On the first day of every week [Gk sabbatou], each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that there will be no collecting when I come.

Acts 13:14--

but they went on from Perga and came to Antioch in Pisidia. And on the Sabbath day [Gk hemera ton sabbaton] they went into the synagogue and sat down.

Acts 13:42,44--

As they went out, the people begged that these things might be told them the next Sabbath [Gk to metaxu sabbaton].... [44] The next Sabbath [Gk to erchomeno sabbato] almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord.

Acts 17:2

And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days [Gk epi sabbata tria] he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

[John317]

...

But is it ABSOLUTELY wrong to translate "prote" into "chief"?

Protos occurs about 101 times in the NT.

84 times in the KJV, it is translated "first."

11 times (KJV) it is translated "chief."

Twice it is translated "before," and twice "former."

Once it is translated "best," and once "beginning."

Originally Posted By: Samie

Acts 16:12 already had it. It is therefore certainly NOT INCORRECT to translate "prote sabbatou" into "of the chief sabbath".

In Acts 16: 12, protos refers to Philipi as the "chief" or "first" [i.e., most prominant] city of the district of Macedonia.

Would it be correct to argue that since protos is sometimes translated "before," "former," "best," and "beginning," it would be acceptable to translate it by these words in Mark 16: 9?

The question is, where can you show an example from either the NT or extra-biblical literature in which prote sabbatou unquestionably means "the chief sabbath"?

Can you show evidence of this in any of the recognized literature on the Greek language or in competant translations of the NT?

[Lysimachus]

John317,

You better start takin some Vibe.

We need you around.

[Gail]

John317,

You better start takin some Vibe.

We need you around.

I so wish I could understand Greek. I envision that a whole 'nuther world would open up to my understanding!

[doug yowell]

I so wish I could understand Greek. I envision that a whole 'nuther world would open up to my understanding!

I agree. It's all Greek to me too.

[doug yowell]

What did he say,John??

[doug yowell]

I agree. It's all Greek to me too.

Ja; to me too. Wish sometimes it stayed like that; but then I would be an unfaithful servant of my Lord.

Also, stayed it 'all Greek to me', today I might have been a hobo, or an atheist, or a lonely morbid pleasure-worshiper without friend or family, or, ... dead! Because it is written "ALL things work together" towards our good through Christ our Friend, Brother and Saviour Lord God.

Uh...you do have a unique way of putting that. Too much Milton or Bunyan for breakfast??

[Samie]

Can you explain from a grammatical viewpoint why the translators of the Septuagint were wrong to translate "deutera sabbatou" as "the second day of the week" and "tetradi sabbatou" as "fourth day of the week"?

Why? Because from the grammatical viewpoint of the translators themselves, in their treatment of Ezra 6:15, they translated "hemeras trites menos" into "third day of the month". Prudence would dictate that if the editor of Psalms who placed the title in Ps 47 & 93 of the Septuagint had in mind days of the week instead of sabbath, then a similar structure should had been found, as in:

"hemeras deutera hebdomados" for "second day of the week"

"hemeras tessara hebdomados" for "fourth day of the week"

But a different form was used in Ps 47 & 93 of LXX where "sabbatou" and "sabbatwn" respectively, found elsewhere in the Septuagint were almost all from the Hebrew "shabbath", were specified. Therefore, the editor was referring to a specific sabbath of the month.

[Samie]

sabbatou may refer to the Sabbath or to the entire week, since the week consists of seven days. This is something that you can find in all NT Greek grammars and Greek-English lexicons.

Consider these examples:

Luke 18:12

I fast twice a week [Gk dis tou sabbatou]; I give tithes of all that I get.'

[Samie]

Protos occurs about 101 times in the NT.

84 times in the KJV, it is translated "first."

11 times (KJV) it is translated "chief."

Twice it is translated "before," and twice "former."

Once it is translated "best," and once "beginning."

...

In Acts 16: 12, protos refers to Philipi as the "chief" or "first" [i.e., most prominant] city of the district of Macedonia.

Would it be correct to argue that since protos is sometimes translated "before," "former," "best," and "beginning," it would be acceptable to translate it by these words in Mark 16: 9?

Greek "mia".

Usage: KJV - "one" 62, "first" 8, "a certain" 4, "a" 3, "the other" 1

Using your argument above, would it be likewise correct to substitute "one", "a certain", "a", or "the other" in Luke 24:1 for the word "first" translated from "mia" in the phrase "first day of the week"?

So did you notice that the answer to your question would be to use what best fits the given situation and whether the intention of the writer whose work one is translating is not lost nor replaced? So what was Mark's intention in Mark 16:9? Surely inserting "day" and substituting "week" for "sabbath" looks more suspicious than just rendering "protos" into "chief".

[doug yowell]

I am genetically wired to be a very serious type of person. For example, I despise sarcasm.

Uh oh.

[doug yowell]

Obviously the last ... and UNDENIABLY except for Samie the know-all know-nothing.

Now, if you can start to view comments like these in the same way you view sarcasm....

[doug yowell]

Haven't you got something substantial relevant to the theme of Samie's thread to say?

Alright, my comments deviated in those few posts ... like in this one again ... due to comments LIKE YOURS. Mine were explanatory of implied relevancy; yours have no relevancy. Therefore you stop and I stop making irrelevant comments, or you go on making irrelevant comments, and I stop in any case because next such irrelevant comment and I shall not comment.

Your comments deviate from relevancy when you call Samie names. My comment was directed to the fact that if you treated name calling with the same distain that you show towards sarcasm your comments would carry a greater,more focused impact on the discussion.Your form of communication is already difficult for me to decipher and adding belittling tags to the mix detracts even more from what otherwise seems to be an important and meaningful contribution. As for my other, irrelevant comments, you are probably right so feel free to ignore them.I have nothing substantial to contribute to any discussion of Greek other than I feel confident enough in God's ability to direct Bible translators to understand it's meaning well enough to clearly get His message across (despite what Samie is convinced of)to the rest of us.

[Gibs]

I knew this would be a "hard" topic so I stayed out for the most part as I could see no resolution could be made. I know there is a right answer and there is hidden facts that few know of to consider and most are not versed well in math well and the things of discord that were present at that time. To start with there was two passover times kept by two different methods of determining a new moon which the feasts are determined by. It makes several things come out that are hard to understand in the new testament and some had to do with Paul's travels and whether he had time to make it to a place in so short a time. Well Paul did have plenty of time, it was two days difference in that reckoning.

It just requires hard study and putting it together that is hard to follow unless contemplated on for some time until it is solidly seen.

Jesus and the disciples kept Passover the right day though you all can be sure.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Bert]

It seems that there is considerable disputation concerning the time that passed between Christ's death and His resurrection. In reading the scriptures that pertain to this subject, without going into a preparative study for a dissertation, it is logical and clear that Christ died on Friday afternoon...before sundown, as it was preparation Friday. His grave was discovered to be empty just before the light of dawn on Sunday morning, the first day of the week. Within this premise lies a multitude of questions, opinions, astronomical observations and all kinds of other suppositions and exegetical analyses.

According to the day/night (sundown/sundown) time used at that period of time, the day of Friday ended at sundown, and Saturday commenced, continuing until sundown on Saturday, at which time the first day of the week was ushered in. Thus, there were three days involved...Friday, Saturday and Sunday.

If you believe that Christ was resurrected, then you should believe what Christ said...'that He would rise after three days'. The three days would be Friday (the day He died), Saturday (the day He rested in the grave) and Sunday (the day He arose). The reason Christ remained in the grave during the Sabbath is that He observed the Sabbath, even in death, for He rested from His work...His ministry, followed by His salvational death on the Cross.

[Gibs]

Bert,

The problem lays in the fact Jesus and the disciples had celebrated the passover and the Jews hadn't yet that kept it by the Bablylonian method which was two days past the right reckoning and so He was crucified before the seventh day Sabbath as they couldn't do it then. So it depends on whether you find they had the passover on Thurs. or Fri.. I don't want to put out a view here or any where as it is nothing but a contention issue. The scripture makes it clear to me so I will go no further. I would say you are safe in your view.

Joh 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: John317

Protos occurs about 101 times in the NT.

84 times in the KJV, it is translated "first."

11 times (KJV) it is translated "chief."

Twice it is translated "before," and twice "former."

Once it is translated "best," and once "beginning."

...

In Acts 16: 12, protos refers to Philipi as the "chief" or "first" [i.e., most prominant] city of the district of Macedonia.

Would it be correct to argue that since protos is sometimes translated "before," "former," "best," and "beginning," it would be acceptable to translate it by these words in Mark 16: 9?

Greek "mia".

Usage: KJV - "one" 62, "first" 8, "a certain" 4, "a" 3, "the other" 1

Using your argument above, would it be likewise correct to substitute "one", "a certain", "a", or "the other" in Luke 24:1 for the word "first" translated from "mia" in the phrase "first day of the week"?

So did you notice that the answer to your question would be to use what best fits the given situation and whether the intention of the writer whose work one is translating is not lost nor replaced? So what was Mark's intention in Mark 16:9? Surely inserting "day" and substituting "week" for "sabbath" looks more suspicious than just rendering "protos" into "chief".

Surely it would be suspicious why virtually every translator, who was accustomed to the Greek language, translated Mark 16:9 as "in the morning the first day of the week". I certainly trust their understanding of the Greek a whole lot more than your understanding!

[Bert]

Gibs - As the verse cited in your post says, 'it was the preparation day', which is always Friday, the day prior to the Sabbath, and this day was always on Friday, and still is.

[jamesonofthunder]

There is only one verse in Scriptures that explicitly say when Christ rose from the grave. All other resurrection verses only tell of the coming of some of the Lord's followers to the sepulcher only to find an already empty tomb. That empty tomb was proof He has indeed risen. But when? Only Mark 16:9 says when: on 'proi prote sabbatou'

The Greek phrase 'proi prote sabbatou' is better rendered 'early morning of the chief sabbath' rather than the generally accepted 'early morning of the first day of the week'. It is worth noting that the Greek makes no mention of 'day'(hemera) nor of 'week'(hebdomas). In fact, in the Septuagint, 'sabbatou' (genitive, singular) always refer to 'sabbath' (a single day) and NEVER to 'week' (7 days). But the Sunday-keeping Bible translators seemed to have put in a tint of doctrinal bias in their rendering of the phrase in order to give a semblance of Scriptural authority to their Sunday-keeping.

But why 'chief sabbath'? Because in that paschal week, other than the weekly sabbath, there also occurred a ceremonial sabbath. Between the weekly sabbath which the Lord calls 'my sabbath' and a ceremonial sabbath referred to by the Lord as 'your sabbath' the chief is undoubtedly the weekly sabbath, Saturday.

That ceremonial sabbath was the sabbath that had passed when the women followers of the Lord bought spices (Mk 16:1) which they prepared before they rested the weekly sabbath (Lk 23:56). Since preparation of the spices and ointments was before the weekly sabbath, it was done Friday. Also, since the ceremonial sabbath preceded the preparation of spices, having only bought the spices after this ceremonial sabbath had passed, it was therefore Thursday. This ceremonial sabbath occurred after preparation of Passover the day before, which was, of course, Wednesday.

It was preparation of Passover when Christ was crucified (John 19:14ff), and therefore Wednesday. 3 days and 3 nights later, as the Lord Himself specified (Mt 12:40), He rose from the grave 'proi prote sabbatou' = 'early morning of the chief sabbath'.

daytime Wednesday = day 1; ... nighttime Wednesday = night 1

daytime Thursday = day 2; ... nighttime Thursday = night 2

daytime Friday = day 3; ... nighttime Friday (which covers the whole night until before sunrise Saturday) = night 3

In contrast, the Roman Catholic doctrine of Friday crucifixion and early Sunday morning resurrection can only account for 2 days and 2 nights.

Many honest Sunday-keepers who keep Sunday believing it was His resurrection day will become Sabbath-keepers once they come to know the Lord rose from the grave Saturday.

The ‘Sign of Jonah’ mystery explained!

“For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”-Matthew 12:40.

With all of the controversy circling the interpretation of Matthew 12, it would be appropriate that we first see what the founders of our faith believed on this subject, to discern the truth. James White said;

“The ‘earth’ in this case must mean the powers of earth, or the power and control of wicked men, and the Devil… Thus, Jesus was in the heart of the earth, or controlled and held by the powers of earth and hell, from the time that he was betrayed into the hands of sinners, until he arose from the dead, in triumph and victory. Jesus was as much in the heart of the earth when before Pilate, and on the cross, as he was while in Joseph’s tomb. With this view, all the Scripture testimony will harmonize.”

{PTJW December, 1849, Art. 5, p. 39.5}

The evening of His last supper, when He left the Eastern Gate and crossed the Brook Kidron, begins the three days and three nights ‘sign of Jonah’. This comprehension gives a more perfect view of the spiritual and physical death that Jesus suffered. Only when counting the days from the time Jesus entered the Garden on Thursday evening does it come fully to three days and three nights. Perfectly fulfilled, this is the true understanding of the sign of Jonah. It is a sign showing the people who discover it and the world it is from God.

Thursday Evening (Last supper/ Gethsemane) ~ Friday Morning; the first day

Friday Evening (The Cross) ~ Saturday Morning; the Second day

Saturday Evening (the tomb) ~ Sunday Morning; the third day

When I later heard a sermon and learned that the name ‘Jonah’ means ‘Dove’, the Spirit of remembrance led my mind immediately to the Great Controversy, where it is said that in the Garden of Gethsemane after the messiah’s hour of torment, “a dove-like form overshadowed Him.” {DA 694.5} Just as it did at his baptism of water in the Jordan! I knew God had proven to me this great truth, Jesus had His baptism of fire (blood) in the Garden, and this begins the 3 days and nights.