SDA Groups "pigeon holed"

[ClubV12]

I wonder if this thread will in some way be in violation of the rules of the board? I don't know. For some, it will certainly be in violation of the rules of "good taste". Never the less, lets see how it goes. Comments welcome of course.

Four primary groups of independent ministries and a PARTIAL list of examples:

1. Those who fully support the corporate Seventh-day Adventist Church.

2. Those who may or do openly preach it is OK to separate from a local Seventh-day Adventist Church, but otherwise support the Adventist Church fully. A change in your home Church may need consideration.

I find myself leaning toward Group 2, recognizing the need some folks, especially with families, may have to remove themselves from a given particular local Church for their own spiritual well being.

3. Those who openly preach separation from the entire Seventh-day Adventist Church organization. They do not openly preach that membership removal is necessary.

The above groups do not openly preach that probation is closed on the corporate Adventist Church. They do not preach that the entire Adventist Church is Babylon. They do not openly preach that membership removal is necessary (though some may personally believe all of the above).

4. “Off shoots”. SOME of whom MAY still profess to be “Seventh-day Adventist” or use the name in some manner for their organization. They openly preach the Seventh-day Adventist Church is in apostasy. Make a call to separate entirely from that organization and remove their membership. Preach that the Adventist Church is Babylon.

Group 1, fully support the Adventist Church.

Hartland Institute.

Highway for the Remnant Ministries.

Keep the Faith Ministries.

Hope International.

Amazing Facts.

Light Bearers Ministry.

3ABN.

Medical Missionary Press.

The Eternal Gospel Ministry.

Turning the Heart Ministry.

Group 2, support the Adventist Church with some reservation in extreme conditions.

Apocalypse Ministries.

Empowered Living Ministries.

Gospel Ministries International.

Shepherd’s Call Ministry.

Steps to Life.

Pilgrim’s Rest, Vince Farrell.

Laymen Ministries.

World Missionaries.

Uchee Pines.

Behold the Lamb Ministries.

Back to Eden Ministries.

Mountain Media Ministries.

Restoration International.

G.R.O.W. (God’s Road to Optimum Wholeness) Ministries.

Moses’ Song Ministries.

Group 3, support removal from the entire Adventist Church structure but NOT membership removal.

Laymen United for Truth.

Victory Ministries.

Truth Triumphant Ministries.

Eternal Gospel Church.

Bible Alive.

Amazing Discoveries.

Gilead Institute.

M.E.E.T. (Missionary Education and Evangelistic Training) Ministry.

Steps to Victory Ministry.

Know the Bible.

Times of Refreshing Health Ministry.

Temple Restored Ministry, and John Skeete.

Jorge Lopera Ministry, and Jorge Lopera.

Echoes From the Past, and Vern Bates.

Bob Trefz, author of Cherith Chronicles.

Group 4, “Off Shoots”, self explanatory, no longer associated in any capacity with the Adventist Church. Fully believe and preach the Adventist Church is in apostasy. Make a specific call to leave the entire organization and remove your membership. Many believe probation has already closed for corporate Seventh-day Adventists. These groups are relatively easy to identify.

[olger]

Group 1, baby.

And I don't hesitate to call for reform from within the church.

[phkrause]

I definitely agree olger.

[olger]

[Woody]

Quote:

Group 1, fully support the Adventist Church.

Hartland Institute.

Not sure how you can say that.

[ClubV12]

Oh, I'm Group 1 all the way. For ME, I feel I am called to stay and serve right where I'm at. For SOME, I understand the need they may have to, for instance, get out of the city. Move to the country, for the sake of their children if nothing else. To find a small country Adventist Church where the environment is better spiritually for their well being. Where, as Sister White put's it, their ideas of what it means to be a Christian won't be leavened by the "low grade of piety which is current in our day" (HER day, and it aint got any better lately).

The problem with Group #2 is that some will and have gone way to far with this concept and it turns into something ugly, like Group #3 or even #4. Great caution should be exercised for those contemplating a decision like Group #2 may call for. It is really just an excuse to run away? Or do you have a distinct call from the Lord to make that move? You need to be sure, not just guessing lest you deceive yourself on the issues.

Some folks answer a call to the Mission Field based on a "feeling". The mission field is not always the wonderful world we so often see in "Mission Spot Light". It's hard work, you might get sick, it can be dangerous. Timothy who accompanied Paul and Barnabas had second thoughts about the mission field work he so eagerly embraced until he found the reality was pretty harsh! Be careful about what you THINK or FEEL the Lords calling may be.

Woody, I'm certainly open to suggestions, deletions, additions to the list. Hartland impresses me as Group #1. Do I detect you have some reservations in that regard? I have no problem for those that would move the list around, it's just one man's opinion subject to change after all.

[Gordon1]

Not sure how you can say that.

No experience with Hartland.

[Gordon1]

Seems the witch hunt has started here too.

[Woody]

someone is making a judgment of which they know nothing.

[JoeMo]

I would like to propose a 5th group (maybe a subgroup to group 4) to ClubV12's list - entire church bodies that were under the SDA cover; and (because of certain events (usually related to charismatic churches) that occurred in their church, were given a choice to either stop those events from happening or leave the denomination. I am referring to manifestations like prayer languages (aka glosilalia), miraculous healings, swooning during prayer time (otherwise known as "being slain in the Spirit").

I am not posting this to debate the origin or biblical basis of these manifestations. I am posting this to say that these manifestations are actually occurring in SDA congregations; and those congregations are being put between a rock and a hard place. I was in a post-service prayer group at one church; and roughly half of the men in the group suddenly started speaking in a strange tongue (they had never done so previously). During another service, several people (including a 14 month-old child) were overcome with joy or ecstasy (I don't know what else to call it); and eventually fell to the ground in kind of a daze. They were so happy and peaceful when they came out of it! This had never happened previously.

It may be easy to warn people of the danger these type of manifestations; but when you witness or participate in them, it doesn't feel dangerous - it feels like living in the book of Acts! When a congregation is faced with the choice of following the Spirit where it seems to be leading or bowing to the pressures of the denomination, what are they to do?

I must emphasize that the church I with which I am familiar was not as a church body pursuing these manifestations. They were simply pursuing an experience that was more than a Sabbath School Lesson in the morning and a sermon afterwards, they were actively seeking the Holy Spirit to lead them into revival. God (in my opinion) brought these manifestations as a sign of His approval and evidence of His presence.

Like I said, I am not posting this to start a debate on the theology of these manifestations; so please don't send me a Bible study on why they are right or wrong. I am just a reporter here - not a theologian. That being said, the text that most frequently comes to mind when I have witnessed these things is Joel 2:28 - 32:

“And afterward,

I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

Your sons and daughters will prophesy,

your old men will dream dreams,

your young men will see visions.

29 Even on my servants, both men and women,

I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

30 I will show wonders in the heavens

and on the earth,

blood and fire and billows of smoke.

31 The sun will be turned to darkness

and the moon to blood

before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

32 And everyone who calls

on the name of the LORD will be saved;

for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem

there will be deliverance,

as the LORD has said,

even among the survivors

whom the LORD calls.

Why do we feel a need to relegate this prophecy to the future? If we truly believe that Jesus is coming soon and that we are in the last days, why shouldn't these manifestations be for our time?

[Gordon1]

Persecution will use these same lists.

[Gordon1]

"See something, Say something" Campaign:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=29250

[Gibs]

It is a shake down that began quite a few years back. For me I just have never believed I must have my name on any churches books. I just love the truth of all things pertaining to Christianity and labor for it as best I can.

My role is not to condeman but that all like the Bereans would study to see what is truth. The truth is what we must have and if possible every point.

I at present do not place myself in any of those groups and I like parts of what is taught of the ministries mentioned.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

I'm a student of Adventist history and I see these very same divisions all through the history of the Church. Hardly a witch hunt, a reality check! You don't go into battle without a clue about who your opponents may be, how they operate, what to look for. And battle is precisely what we are faced with, a very real, down to earth, spiritual battle where people are going to get hurt, some will die.

Right now, in three of the local Churches in my area there have been Daniel Seminars presenting the "1335 Futurist" view. These seminars have a direct tie in to a #4 Group. Specifically a group not only calling Adventists out of the Church, but renouncing their membership in the Church. Seminars being preached from the PULPIT of three local Churches!!! Witch hunt indeed, I'm on full alert, lives are at stake. This is a serious and dangerous issue, it's not a time to go quietly and hide in the closet.

JoMoe makes an interesting observation concerning Spiritual Gifts. The early history of the Adventist Church certainly demonstrated a number of gifts. And I'm NOT speaking of Ellen White! Other founding members, our pioneers, were blessed with various fruits of the Spirit early on. Dreams, visions, miraculous healings, being "prostrated" from the power of the Spirit AND speaking in tongues! All these were manifest in the early Adventist Church (by other than Ellen White)!

I do not have extensive knowledge of ALL the groups listed, SOME I DO have extensive knowledge of. Woody, if you have a problem with Hartland for instance, speak up!

I found Uchee Pines to be particularly interesting as I've been studying "Self Supporting Work" and could list many other institutions like them in Group #2. How about Wildwood Hospital in Group #2? Maybe,,, In MY opinion of course, nothing hard and fast here.

[Lysimachus]

I would like to propose a 5th group (maybe a subgroup to group 4) to ClubV12's list - entire church bodies that were under the SDA cover; and (because of certain events (usually related to charismatic churches) that occurred in their church, were given a choice to either stop those events from happening or leave the denomination. I am referring to manifestations like prayer languages (aka glosilalia), miraculous healings, swooning during prayer time (otherwise known as "being slain in the Spirit").

I am not posting this to debate the origin or biblical basis of these manifestations. I am posting this to say that these manifestations are actually occurring in SDA congregations; and those congregations are being put between a rock and a hard place. I was in a post-service prayer group at one church; and roughly half of the men in the group suddenly started speaking in a strange tongue (they had never done so previously). During another service, several people (including a 14 month-old child) were overcome with joy or ecstasy (I don't know what else to call it); and eventually fell to the ground in kind of a daze. They were so happy and peaceful when they came out of it! This had never happened previously.

It may be easy to warn people of the danger these type of manifestations; but when you witness or participate in them, it doesn't feel dangerous - it feels like living in the book of Acts! When a congregation is faced with the choice of following the Spirit where it seems to be leading or bowing to the pressures of the denomination, what are they to do?

I must emphasize that the church I with which I am familiar was not as a church body pursuing these manifestations. They were simply pursuing an experience that was more than a Sabbath School Lesson in the morning and a sermon afterwards, they were actively seeking the Holy Spirit to lead them into revival. God (in my opinion) brought these manifestations as a sign of His approval and evidence of His presence.

Like I said, I am not posting this to start a debate on the theology of these manifestations; so please don't send me a Bible study on why they are right or wrong. I am just a reporter here - not a theologian. That being said, the text that most frequently comes to mind when I have witnessed these things is Joel 2:28 - 32:

“And afterward,

I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

Your sons and daughters will prophesy,

your old men will dream dreams,

your young men will see visions.

29 Even on my servants, both men and women,

I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

30 I will show wonders in the heavens

and on the earth,

blood and fire and billows of smoke.

31 The sun will be turned to darkness

and the moon to blood

before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

32 And everyone who calls

on the name of the LORD will be saved;

for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem

there will be deliverance,

as the LORD has said,

even among the survivors

whom the LORD calls.

Why do we feel a need to relegate this prophecy to the future? If we truly believe that Jesus is coming soon and that we are in the last days, why shouldn't these manifestations be for our time?

[Gibs]

Some of those ministries are very discenting yet and haven't followed to know the rest in the last 10 years but many were very much so back aways.

Anyways it is the shaking and is hopefully picking up again, and don't know on that.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Thanks for the balancing view on the fruits of the Spirit Lysimachus. I would also like to add that while the various fruits of the Spirit I mentioned earlier DID in fact occur in our early Adventist history, they were very rare. Very subdued. NEVER involving large groups of people in a Church setting. Always when just a few were present, under very special and specific instances. Today, if I was in Church and someone suddenly got up speaking in tongues, to say the least, I would be highly skeptical! I do believe the fruits will reoccur, but I am not looking for them and won't rely on them, they are to easily counterfitted.

[John317]

1. Those who fully support the corporate Seventh-day Adventist Church.

I'm definitely in this group.

Quote:

Group 1, fully support the Adventist Church.

Hartland Institute.

Hope International.

Amazing Facts.

3ABN.

I like and agree with all these self-supporting ministries. I've never heard them suggest that SDAs ought to separate from the church. They all preach openly the need of the church to experience revival and reformation.

[Woody]

Quote:

Woody, if you have a problem with Hartland for instance

I have no problem with Harland. If one believes as they do - then by all means attend. But I don't. So I would not attend.

I stand by all the teachings of the church. EACH and everyone of the 28 Fundamentals. But not everyone does. And I have no issue with them. But be aware of where you are going and what they believe and promote.

[skyblue888]

Gibs said: "My role is not to condemn but that all like the Bereans would study to see what is truth. The truth is what we must have and if possible every point."

I agree. "And when the Holy Spirit shall come into your hearts, to impress the truth into your souls, you will not let it go easily. You have gained such an experience in searching the Scriptures that every point is established. And it is important that you continually search the Scriptures." Faith & Works,56.

Then you said: "I at present do not place myself in any of those groups and I like parts of what is taught of the ministries mentioned."

Same here.

sky

[JoeMo]

Thanks for all of the quotes supporting the denomination's official position, Lysimachus. I am well aware of most of those quotes from previous studies, as I am a "recovering legalist". For many years, I was very active in some of the organizations mentioned in Groups 1, 2 and 3 (Hartland, Hope International, and Steps to Life). While these groups may currently vary in their support of the corporate SDA church, there was a time 15 - 20 years ago when all of these groups were on the verge of calling the church Babylon (although I don't think any of them ultimately did). I was part of that movement because I wanted a deeper experience with my Lord; and what I mostly got was a sense of unworthiness and condemnation - neither one necessarily a Kingdom blessing. I constantly questioned my salvation. As I began noticing cracks in the infrastructure of the "independent ministries" (as they were called in the 1980's and 1990's), I became aware of other movements within the church where people were also seeking a deeper relationship; although these groups were considerable more liberal and open-minded than the groups associated with "historical" Adventists. Although I was initially offended by some of their practices, I noticed more character and positive growth in these groups than I did in my previous relationships; so I stuck with them; and continue to be blessed. I will never give up my SDA culture or principles; but I hope I never go back to the closed-minded legalism as defined by a man-made denomination (or sub-movement in that denomination), either.

I raise these points not to be arrogant or rebellious; I ask for feedback from both sides of the issue. In trying to open my mind, I reserve the right to be wrong (Ive been wrong before); and reserve the right to change my mind at any time. I just want to be in an ever-increasing relationship with the Giver - with or without the gifts. That being said, the gifts are an amazing vehicle to cement that relationship. What "power" was Paul speaking of in 1Cor.2:3-5 when he said:

And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

What "power" was Paul talking about in 1Thessalonians1:4-6 when he said:

4Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

5For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

6And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost.

What did Jesus mean when He said in Mark 16:17-18:

17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

When a congregation is earnestly seeking the Lord, why would He allow deception to come among them? After all, isn't it Jesus who said in Luke 11:10-12 that:

10For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

11If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

12Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

Jesus allowing entrance of demonic power to people desperately seeking His presence sounds alot like asking for bread and receiving a stone to me.

My God doesn't do that.

[skyblue888]

One thing among others we can be sure of is that there is a time of probation for the church. The parable of the wedding garment and the parable of the net teach this very clearly. In the parable of the wedding garment two main calls (opportunities) are given to the church to accept the Gospel invitation. If the church rejects both there is a third call, not to the church, but to the world. This is what happened in the days of Christ. Pentecost was the second call. It lasted 3 and a half years. The rejection of the second call was followed by a great persecution when Stephen and James were put to death. Thus the Jewish church sealed her rejection of God's mercy.

The 1888 message was the first call of the parable of the wedding garment to the Advent people. The call lasted several years. The light was resisted. (1 S.M.234,235; T.M.467) In 1901 the Advent people were told that they would have to remain in this world many more years because of insubordination. See Evangelism,696.

This rejection was followed by the crucifixion of the messages that had been entrusted to us (1955-1957) just as the rejection of the first call to the Jewish church was followed by a crucifixion.

The crucifixion of Christ was followed by the second call to the Jewish church beginning at Pentecost and ending in A.D.34 with the stoning of Stephen.

The second call to the Advent people is imminent. If again the light is resisted the church will seal her rejection of God's mercy and will be left behind and the bearers of the message, being persecuted, will be forced to go to the world with their message and it will swell into the loud cry and when the mission of the Gospel is completed the judgment of the living will accomplish the final separation between the wise and the foolish and their destiny will be forever fixed.

May God help us that our eyes may be anointed with eyesalve that we may be able to discern the precious truth as it is proclaimed in demonstration and power of the Holy Spirit that we may receive it, believe it, and act upon it that we may become vessels fit for the Master's use.

sky

[skyblue888]

At the present time the condition of the professed people of God is described in these prophetic words:

"Never was there a time when the Lord would manifest His great grace unto His chosen ones more fully than in these last days when His law is made void. 'The Lord is well pleased for His righteousness'sake; He will magnify the law, and make it honorable.' What does God say in regard to His people? 'But this is a people robbed, and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses; they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore.'" (Isaiah 42:22); Testimonies to Ministers,96.

sky

[ClubV12]

Sky says,

"The second call to the Advent people is imminent."

That's what the shaking is all about, the Church IS going through to the end, purified by the shaking. Those that have already left the Church have given up their anchor and run ahead of the Lord. Those who are calling folks OUT of the Church are fighting against the Church, this is not the work God has given His end time people. The Church is better off without them.

Separation of the wheat and chaff is not man's work, it is the work of angels, it will be accomplished in due time. Expressions of great piety are no indicator of truth, no sign one is led of God in any respect.

Indeed, the more I hear people talk about how they personally are "led by the Holy Spirit" and they have "need of nothing else, anybody or the counsel of others" the more I am convinced they are led by an evil spirit. History is filled with people who were convinced they too were led of the Holy Spirit and thus authorized to act independantly of counsel. In some cases the results have been horrific.

Those who are truly led of the Holy Spirit will have nothing to boast about in that regard. They will see and understand their great need of counsel and the danger of charting their own path. They will press together, not scatter. Those they press together with may be a small group, here and there, but they all have one thing in common: They are members of Group #1, they fully support the Church and they are not confused as to the meaning and definition of the term "Church". That organized body of believers known as the "Seventh-day Adventist" church. The single object of Gods supreme affection on earth.

This group will be as a beacon to those seeking light who will come and join them in due time.

[skyblue888]

JoeMo, I can truly indentify with your experience until one day the Lord impressed the following statement upon my mind as I was re-reading the book Patriarchs & Prophets, searching for answers:

"In all our helpless unworthiness we must trust in the merits of the crucified and risen Saviour. None will ever perish while they do this." p.203.

None will ever perish while they do what? Trust in the MERITS of the crucified and risen Saviour.

Could it be that simple?

Some time after that I came across these words: "The matter of salvation is just as simple as ABC. But we don't understand it." Faith & Works,64.

The statment from P.P.203 had hit me like a brick. I had been in the church (even as a pastor and Bible worker) for more than 20 years when the Holy Spirit impressed this simple truth into my soul. I had been crying out to Him at a time when I, like never before, had been made to realize my utterly helpless condition.

I had been thirsting and hungering for the 1888 message for many years. I kept on reading and on page 432 I received another comfirmation of the words the Spirit had already impressed upon my mind on page 203:

"If we are conscious of our needs, we should not devote all our powers to mourning over them. While we realize our helpless condition without Christ, we are not to yield to discouragement, but rely upon the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour. Look and live. Jesus has pledged His word; He will save all who come unto Him. Though millions who need to be healed will reject His offered mercy, not one who TRUSTS in His MERITS will be left to perish."

It wasn't long before I was led to discover that this was the very foundation of the 1888 message, the very foundation of the third angel's message itself as Mrs. White explained that as we lay hold by faith of the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour, by claiming them on a daily basis, His righteousness is brought into the life and it is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God. See Faith & Works,65,66 and Testimonies to Minsters, 92,93,97. (Rev.14:12)

This, she declared, is the third angel's message in clear, distinct lines.

Over the years, even before I made this discovery, I had examined the writings of many independent ministries such as Hartland, Steps to Life, Hope International, The 1888 Message Study Committee, just to mention these, and today I can say that none of them, including main stream, were or are today teaching this simple truth, the simplicity of daily trusting in the MERITS of a crucified and risen Saviour in order to find the approval of God that we may become vessels fit the Master's use.

sky