ClubV12 Posted February 22, 2012 Author Posted February 22, 2012 JoeMo says, "It is the SDA church that elevated her status to that of infallible prophet." Point of clairification, the Adventist Church does not claim Ellen White is infallible, nor does she herself. She never claimed to be a prophet for two reasons: 1. In her day there were a couple of hundred people making that claim! Had she taken that title she would not have stood out from among them. 2. Her work was that of a prophet, but as she said, it was MORE. She was a special messenger, for a special time. Even prophets are people, subject to temptation, to errors, to failing on some point. BUT, when directly under divine revelation that is a different matter! They are the Lords messenger. As such, when it was required, she was given visions to correct doctrinal errors or shed light on the correct doctrinal points. This was done ONLY AFTER the Brethren had searched the scriptures diligently and had come to an impasse where they could not agree or did not see clearly what the next step, the correct interpretation, should be. Doctrine was NOT handed to the pioneers on a silver plater, they had to work for it. As we do also. There will be plenty of "hooks" to hang your doubts on as you search for the truth. In the bible we see all kinds of different "prophets", a term often used because it is somewhat generic in that respect. What IS a prophet? That debate rages on. WAS Sister White a prophet? I think so, no matter what definition you use, I believe she qualifies. She certainly DID prophesie concerning future events that did come to pass. She certainly had visions, all though, I'm not sure having a vision, a dream, a divine revelation of some kind "instantly" elevates one to the status of "prophet". Was Paul a prophet? I think that would apply. JoeMo says, "So what if EGW may have misinterpreted a few things?" I have yet to find any evidence or incident that would support that claim. Some of her, literal prophecies, are based on conditions that must be met. Consider Jonah for instance, he was pretty depressed when his prophecy "apparently" failed. He delivered a MESSAGE of what MIGHT come to pass IF,,,, "conditions". Or what COULD come to pass IF,,,, "conditions". There is at least one mistake I can think of that Ellen White came to regret. She urged upon the people of her time dress reform that included an outfit called the "American Costume", as I recall. The people were simply not ready for such a drastic change, and she withdrew from pressing the issue. I wonder,,, was that a problem SHE made for herself, or was that a problem the PEOPLE made for themselves? Perhaps the "American Costume" really WAS God's will for His people at that time? Perhaps Ellen White in her desire to do right ran ahead of the Lord on this point? I might want to inquire of her on that point in due time. We see in the bible many examples of "what the people want" God will let them have, to some degree. Israel wanted a King, the Lord said, not a good idea. They insisted, the Lord said, Ok then, have your King. Of course it didn't work out so well....
Dr. Rich Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 Exactly! Not a prophet--then why use her words to support anything? Not infallible? Then again why use her words to support anything--after all she just could be mistakenly wrong. On the other hand, Jesus was the greatest prophet we have ever had and all of His words were the real truth. Yes, His words are infallible, so why not trust them over everyone else's words?
ClubV12 Posted February 22, 2012 Author Posted February 22, 2012 Was Peter a prophet? Even after his conversion he still made mistakes, the guy wasn't perfect. He was human! Make no mistake, my personal view is that Ellen White rises to the status of "prophet" in every regard. And MORE! :)
Dr. Rich Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 How do you know that Peter was not perfect and righteous? Were you there as an eyewitness? There you go again assumming things that can't be proven.
ClubV12 Posted February 22, 2012 Author Posted February 22, 2012 Peter made some serious mistakes, as did Daniel and many others in the bible. Yet, they remain, Gods messengers.
Dr. Rich Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 Come on, you have testified that Peter made some serious mistakes--show me ONE. As for Daniel, please show me ONE mistake that Daniel made? Please don't testify about others IF you can't provide the proof for your testimony because to do so is a violation of one of the commandments. I know you will come back with what Paul said, but that is only HIS side of the story--the pillars of THE WAY, verses words from someone who admitted he never learned ONE thing from them. The way Paul confronted Peter as found in Acts is downright ungodly! Now, the way Peter responded to Paul has been taken out of the bibles we now have (it used to be in the originial ones) but can be seen in the Climintine Homily #19. There you can see where Paul thumbed his nose at Peter and refused to listenn to good counsel. Look, a true court jury must see every side of the issue before they can make an accurate and good judgment. So why did they take away Climintine's Homily from the original Constitine's bible? Because if they were to leave it in, that would do away with all of Paul's letters! Simple enough!
ClubV12 Posted February 22, 2012 Author Posted February 22, 2012 So, you aren't aware of the mistakes Daniel made, or you think the author was liar or what?
Dr. Rich Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 It was you who claimed that Daniel (and Peter too) was not righteous and made mistakes--not me! I am simply holding you to the fire--prove it. People who assume things and then tell others things as if it were the truth are one of my pet peeves! ALL of EGW's books are full of this type of thing. They are fictional at best. A parable told by Jesus as a prophecy was not fiction because Jesus clearified it as a story first. The story of the Ten Virgins in Matthew 25:1-13 was a prophecy because of what Jesus said at the beginning. "At that time" (the coming like a thief in the future) "the Kingdom of Heaven shall be LIKE".
ClubV12 Posted February 22, 2012 Author Posted February 22, 2012 Ridiculous assumptions you make Dr.Rich, hold your own feet to the fire. Adam made a serious mistake, as did Daniel, Peter and many many other righteouess men who loved God. None are perfect, only Jesus.
Dr. Rich Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 Here you go folks, when someone can't answer provide evidence to prove what they said, then they start attacking the one asking the questions or be littles them in some fashion. I see it on the news almost every day and it's a real bad problem in our courts today. It's called "Circular Reasoning"--NO foundation for for the truth thereof. Jesus called it building your foundation on sand. When I come along and 'call your hand' you simple say it was a full house and throw your cards into the pile. That my friends is simply not fair play. No go back and try again--SHOW us where Peter and Daniel were not righteous and made mistakes--don't assume that they did! You said it as fact, no it's your turn to prove it. If you can't, just say so and admit you made a mistake. Thank you.
ClubV12 Posted February 22, 2012 Author Posted February 22, 2012 Whew,,, earth to Dr.Rich, come in, your drifting Way out of orbit.... Even a child has a basic understanding of the serious error Adam committed.
Dr. Rich Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 Failing to answer my question about Peter and Daniel by circle dancing will not work with me ClubV12. But since we all know you can't, please don't do that again. It's really annoying (to me) for someone to falsly testify about someone's character as you did with Peter and Daniel.
ClubV12 Posted February 23, 2012 Author Posted February 23, 2012 No I won't answer your questions Dr.Rich, even basic bible students are aware of the sins of Daniel and of Peter and of many other biblical peoples. Your questions are ridiculous, your conclusions, just plain nuts.
Dr. Rich Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 No I won't answer your questions Dr.Rich, even basic bible students are aware of the sins of Daniel and of Peter and of many other biblical peoples. Your questions are ridiculous, your conclusions, just plain nuts. In other words, "You CAN'T" ok, I understand now. Perhaps you need a refresher--I asked for you to show us where Peter made mistakes and became unrighteous after He was filled with the Holy Spirit. Same for Daniel. So how many of you basic bible students can actually answer these questions?
ClubV12 Posted February 23, 2012 Author Posted February 23, 2012 As I MENTIONED EARLIER many people in the bible made serious mistakes, in SPITE of that, they were still men of God and blessed of Him. There is none righteouss, no not one, not Peter, not Paul, not Moses, not Ellen White, not Dr.Rich. All of us need the blood of Christ to cover our filthy rags. All of us have made serious mistakes, Paul counted himself "Chief" among sinners. I get that, I know where Paul was coming from. I too could count myself Chief among sinners. It is mind boggling what God is able to forgive in my life. Looking back over my life I have nothing good to offer, I see my history with horror at my ignorance, my sinful life. I identify with Daniel, a man after Gods own heart, and yet, a notable sinner, forgiven. Oh the wonder of it all. You do recall the story about Paul rebuking Peter to his face, I'm sure. I don't really care if you BELIEVE that story or not, I do. MOST Christians do!
JoeMo Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 C'mon guys, every single human being who has ever lived has made mistakes, whether or not those mistakes are documented in Scripture. If anyone who ever lived never made a mistake, we wouldn't have needed a Savior, because someone besides Christ could live a perfect life; so we all could if we really tried. Like I said before, I've tried that; and I could never be good enough to meet my own standards much less God's standard. I need a Savior (and I have One)! This is kind of a rabbit trail, but here goes -- I was reviewing this thread today ( SDA Groups Pigeon-Holed), I realized that I had unconsciously "pigeon-holed" all of the regular contributors to this thread as far as "conservative or liberal"; and "open-minded" vs. close-minded". So I proceeded to "pigeon-hole" myself as "liberal and open-minded", relative to you all. But no matter where I have pigeon-holed you, one thing I have to say about all of you - you are passionate about your beliefs and open about it! None of you are indifferent or neutral; and you don't mince your words - you are being "real" (i.e., who you are). I admire and respect that - whether or not I agree with your positions. I can only assume that because we are so open and honest with each other, we are also all open and honest with God. God loves that! Because of your openness, I feel safe being who I am on this thread, no matter how crazy my ideas may sound. Thank you all for that. Like I said before, this is becoming my favorite church. God bless all of you!
Members phkrause Posted February 23, 2012 Members Posted February 23, 2012 Well Dr Rich we know that Peter denied his Lord 3x, that's at least once. We know that Adam followed his wife's example and ate from the tree that God said not to eat from. As far as Daniel I don't remember anything that I can pinpoint. I believe we can go through the Bible and find something on each man of God. We know that no was perfect but Jesus. Or are you telling us there was others? So than Jesus didn't have to die? We could've had someone else do die for us? phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Dr. Rich Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 That was not the question--of course all of sinned--duh? If I am not mistaken, you said that Peter made mistakes and was unrightious after being filled with the Holy Spirit. All I did is ask you for your proof. It's OK to say I don't have any, but I just assumend he did. However, let me get you off the hook. IF (and I do mean if), the Acts 2 event happened as written, then Peter did make a big mistake because what he said was wrong as we with hindsight can now see that event was not the time of the end. Hey JoeMo, Ya, I kinda feel the same way. As one who grew up and lived for over 45 years about a mile away from Glacier View Ranch, I like to think those in Colorado are my neighbors--like CoAspen. Yes, I used to be a pest at Glacier View Ranch, but did help build many of the cabins and re-did some of their fencing. That big bull elk head in the lodge is mine--shot by me and Elder Ward Scriven at the same time near the camp. It was too large for either of our homes so we took it to the camp.
Dr. Rich Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 And all this time I thought Jesus took the punishment that was to be given to Adam and Eve so that you and I could now be here on this earth. Jesus was the passover lamb, not the atonement bull. The lamb was never sacrificed for anyone's sin but to remember God will pass over the first born IF you do as instructed. Perhaps your got your events crossed. The passover lamb only made it possible for the first fruits to become sanctified IF they too overcome the world by repenting and practicing the truth. (Rev. 5:9-10) Yes, I know that many (most) believe that Jesus came to this world to die for the sins of the world, but that is not what Jesus said or taught. (Jn. 18:37)
ClubV12 Posted February 23, 2012 Author Posted February 23, 2012 Yes Dr.Rich, I think you finally get it, you ARE mistaken! On the question, on doctrine and a large number of issues. :)
Lysimachus Posted February 23, 2012 Posted February 23, 2012 I'd rather be debating Lutherans, Baptists, Presbyterians, Assemblies of God, or any other Christian with some defined statement of beliefs in their life besides Dr. Rich. Dr. Rich, you need to take a break. ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted February 23, 2012 Administrators Posted February 23, 2012 I'm thinking all of you need to take a break... "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
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