SDA Groups "pigeon holed"

[ClubV12]

Reasons from the Church Manual for disciplinary action. Selected items that may be applicable to several posters on this forum who are openly "fighting against" or bringing reproach on the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

1. Denial of faith in the fundamentals of the gospel and in the cardinal doctrines of the church or teaching doctrines contrary to the same.

7. Disorderly conduct which brings reproach upon the church.

8. Adhering to or taking part in a divisive or disloyal movement or organization. (See p. 190.)

9. Persistent refusal to recognize properly constituted church authority or to submit to the order and discipline of the church.

Like this forum, the local Church Board may consider the official process is not worth the time and effort to deal with. In some cases it is readily apparent where people stand on the various issues. In other cases, and considerably more troubling, are those who are very subtle in their attacks upon the Church. They may not make an open call for anyone to leave the Church. They wait, until they spot someone vunerable and then perhaps through private messages or emails move in for the "kill". Always done with great piety, bible verses and selected SOP quotes. THESE are the folks that are wolves in sheep clothing! We flatter ourselves thinking we could easily spot a wolf in disguise, it's not that easy. If possible, even the very elect could be fooled, the disguise is that good!

[Overaged]

You make a good point about the wolves

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

You nailed a good one here and I will comment on it,

"1. Denial of faith in the fundamentals of the gospel and in the cardinal doctrines of the church or teaching doctrines contrary to the same."

That issue underlined is the one that I pressed so hard and spent hours with one Pastor to try to get him to see it was a false gospel he was preching, we'd have to be saved in sin as none could be an overcomer.

I left no stone unturned to show him Jesus Christ in us is our strength and stay and overcoming is expected. I made it very clear to him that Jesus Himself made that clear.

You see he knew there was no grounds to disfellowship me and he didn't come close to trying. We even went over this in our Wed. nite prayer meetings with large group and most were not with him on saved in sin.

When we have the truth it can stand investigation and I prepared well on this as I had been with other groups discussing it and in our Sabbath school class so I had all the scriptures and plenty of EGW's quotes and it left no question.

I have no fear in these things as if I don't have the truth I want to find it out.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Some are easy to spot, some aint....

In the case of the Pastor vs Gib's we only get one side of the story, the Gib's version. Of course that is usually the case with those disparaging the Church, just another hit and run with wild accusations and nothing to back it up.

[phkrause]

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

The reason why so many errors have come in is because there is not enough people who will stand up even of the ones who see the error. Now it's gotten so it is the few who see the errors and that is why it looks so bleak for a reformation. It can't happen as it is the same in the leadership now. Practically the whole "lump" is leavened now.

Seeing will be believing when it completly capitulates. It would be better to see now and get in the warefare against it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

WHAT? PK, the picture is not even close to the difference between a wolf in and a sheep! If you think you could discover the difference from looking at him, then you too have been deceived!

Interestinly, the alphabet gangs in our government have attempted to pigeon hole the public just as Club has here. Truth being known, MOST people are not against the government; they are just against those in the government who are liars violating the constution.

Most members of the SDA church are NOT against the Church itself, but against those leaders, teachers and preachers who preach and teach others to become lawless and to violate God's law and the words of Jesus.

Just as Socialists are now supporting Marxism over the Constitution in this country, so too are leaders, teachers and preachers supporting the words of others over and above the words of Jesus Christ. That's what I see wrong.

[JoeMo]

This discussion is full of diverse opinions! This might seem like a naive question, but what is the "the church"? Having lived all over the country, I have attended many different SDA churches; and seen local church cultures that run the gamut from the conservative and legalistic "frozen chosen" to the seeker friendly "believe as you want, as long as you love Jesus" crowd. Depending which church culture one is in, he could either be head elder or on the "most likely to be disfellowshipped" list. As I posted several pages back, I know of at least one entire congregation that was given the choice of stopping certain "charismatic" events in their church or leaving the denomination. Since when does a church congregation have the right or power to demand that God stop manifesting Himself? The congregation left the denomination; and is currently in the throes of what looks like serious revival.

If I perceive that the church (be it a congregation or a denomination) is stifling what the Lord is doing in my life, it's time to find a new church - be that another SDA congregation or another denomination. I am reminded of the words of Paul in 1 Corinthians 1:

"10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? ... 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power."

I don't follow Adventism (or Catholicism or Mormonism); I follow Christ. It just so happens that Adventism (at least in theory)comes closer than any other denomination to teaching what I believe to be the truth. That does not mean that I blindly swallow everything the denomination throws at me. In fact, there are a few of the 28 pillars that I question because I don't see the scriptural support for them.

I have not been personally "disfellowshipped" from the Adventist Church; but if I ever were, I'b be OK with it since grace though my faith in Jesus Christ determines my salvation, not my standing in a man-made "club".

Someone above mentioned the problem with asking "what's in it for me" when it comes to church participation. To me, that's a valid question. If my church is bringing me nothing but discouragement, condemnation, and guilt, I need to find a new church. Didn't Jesus come so we could have life and have it more abundantly; and that our joy would be complete? If my church is preaching a "gospel" of fear and judgement rather than the Gospel of peace and love, I need a new church. On the other hand, if my chuch is preaching "name it and claim it" or "anything goes as long as you love Jesus", I need a new church. Where is the balance?

When Jesus calls for "unity", He doesn't mean "uniformity". We can all be united for furthering the Kingdom of Heaven on earth without casting our lot with one pigeon-hole or another. Paul and James preached on different aspects of the Gospel; but they were both united in furthering the Kingdom. I might place a priority on grace and you might place a priority on law keeping (although I hope we are all preaching balance). Does that put us at odds? I think not. God is a personal God; and His Spirit may have a different "mission" for you than He has for me. Your burden may be temperance; another's might be prayer; and another's might be evangelism. God gives us all different jobs - we are all different parts of the same body. BUT - we are all part of the same body; so let's all work to keep the entire body of Christ - not just Adventism - or our personal pigeon-hole - healthy and growing.

[Overaged]

Someone above mentioned the problem with asking "what's in it for me" when it comes to church participation. To me, that's a valid question. If my church is bringing me nothing but discouragement, condemnation, and guilt, I need to find a new church. Didn't Jesus come so we could have life and have it more abundantly; and that our joy would be complete?

I was the one who wrote this. I still hold to what I said. The "what's in it for me" mentality is a self-centered "gospel;" and it is worth noting that Jesus did not go out and "find another church" when he encountered condemnation or discouragement. In fact; He went all the way to Calvary just for such ones.

I can't remember which preacher I heard say this; but it might also have been Ellen White who said it. basically it said that revival is possible with just one person in a whole church of "frozen chosen" if they are really on fire for Jesus.

It is also worth noting that Jesus did not go to church every Sabbath. He practiced what he preached when he said: "come ye apart and rest awhile..." He knew the fact that people were outrageous, as you aptly described above; but He knew that the key was to not abandon them; but to just take a break from their demands.

I LIKE THE WAY JESUS DID CHURCH!!

[skyblue888]

What is the church?

"The church of Christ, evey individual disciple of the Master, is Heaven's appopointed channel for the revelation of God to men."

M.B.40.

How is that for a start?

sky

[JoeMo]

It's a great start, Sky. I don't see the word "Adventist" anywhere in the definition. Does that mean you can be part of the "church" without being Adventist? (Please say yes!) :)

[Overaged]

Thats EXCELLENT!

[Overaged]

if you don't mind; i will say "YES."

[JoeMo]

Thank you, Overaged! This forum and people like you are doing more for my faith than anyone in a long time. God's blessing be on you all!

[skyblue888]

First let me share a little more if you dont mind.

"The church is God's fortress, His city of refuge, which He holds in a revolted world... From the beginning, faithful souls have constituted the church on earth." A.A.11.

Now this:

"The soul that is yielded to Christ becomes His own fortress, which He holds in a revolted world, and He intends that no authoritiy shall be known in it but His own. A soul thus kept by the heavenly agencies is impregnable to the assaults of Satan." Desire of Ages,324.

What is the church?

sky

[Overaged]

Thank you, Overaged! This forum and people like you are doing more for my faith than anyone in a long time. God's blessing be on you all!

you are always welcome!! I appreciate hearing that!

[ClubV12]

The devil has a counterfit for everything, here we see being espoused various opinions that point to the "Church" being all over the map. Where two or three are gathered, where ONE is representing Christ, where one entire Church has decided THEY have the light and reject any governing body with rules that restrict them. That last part reminds me of the prodigal son who also rejected the rules of his father and left home, that didn't work out so well. It won't work so well for a person or a church who also rejects God given rules of order and harmony.

The wolves and sheep is a fitting example for these various opinions you noted JoeMo. The opinions of some on this thread are from those who have left the Seventh-day Adventist church and are either openly calling others to do the same or subtly making inferrence thats it's OK.

Let us be clear on what point, what IS the Church? God does indeed have a specific body of believers he has risen up to give the last message to a dieing world. This organized, structured body of believers came out many different churches, Babylon, and from the Millerite movement of 1844. They incorporated and became an official Church in 1863, Seventh-day Adventists.

Are there other folks that comprise the "church"? Of course there is. But make no mistake there is ONE body of believers with a special message, the third angels message. One body with insight to biblical interpretation not found in any other church. Ellen White, a Seventh-day Adventist messenger of the Lord.

The Seventh-day Adventist Church IS thee Church for this time through whom God reserves His supreme affection. They have a distinct message and a special work. To fight against that body of believers is to fight against the throne of God.

Sister White tells us there WILL BE false revivals. How will you know if that church, JoeMo, you speak of is genuine or false? It is "seemingly" having a revival, it looks good, it must be tested by the law and testimony. Principles must be applied to determine it's true condition. Not based on feeling or what looks good. The very fact that they and they alone have decided they will leave the Adventist Church is a major red flag. Sister White dealt with many groups like this in her time, nothing new there.

Those who have once been in the Church, the Adventist Church, and have left and are calling others out are quite simply the wolves Paul spoke of. This is a no-brainer, they are obvious, I'm GLAD there are out of the Church, good riddance! Their disguise is fully exposed.

If you want to know from where the authority with which they speak comes from, ask them straight up, "Are you a member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church", or not? If they cannot answer with a simple yes or no, you have been warned. For those that DO claim to be Seventh-day Adventists, their theology will soon become apparent. If they speak not according to the word AND the testimony, there is no light in them.

If possible, even the very elect could be deceived, tread carefully, there are many on this forum with misleading theology, while in appearance displaying great piety. They are liars, approach with caution.

[phkrause]

It's a great start, Sky. I don't see the word "Adventist" anywhere in the definition. Does that mean you can be part of the "church" without being Adventist? (Please say yes!)

Absolutely! Yes! How's that saying go: "Where two or three are gathered together in my name...." Its kinda like those that live to far from a church so they gather together with a few others each Sabbath, or in your case, not sure if you have a few people that get together and study the Bible, you might not be a SDA but you read and follow the Bible as best you can.

[Dr. Rich]

Nice words Sky, but then what is the Kingdom of Heaven right now? You know, the stone cut out without hands? Wasn't the gospel Jesus said was to be preached "the gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven"?

[Guest]

Gib's if you were openly preaching and teaching your current views as you have preached them on this forum in my Church, I would move to have you disfellowshipped.

What has Gibs been preaching that doesn't jibe with adventism?

[monty]

Since it is unlikely I will see you driving by in your 12 cylinder Mercedes Benz where I could flag you down and talk to you in person I will say it here. Your comment "I'm GLAD there (they) are out of the Church, good riddance!" reflects your relatively recent membership in the SDA church. It also reflects being brainwashed by some Conference employee which I have experianced a few which have spouted in the same vein. The SOP is plain these individuals are precious in our Saviors sight and they will be given the invitaion and drawn back in before he returns. I could recite reasons why many can not bear to bring themselves under the authority of arrogant, self serving individuals who are not bashful to tell you they are the "called". It would be useless since you have inferred I do not speak truthfully as you have stated in the past. I have to admit you do make for entertaining reading on occasion. I am so thankful we have a loving and forgiving Redeemer who reasons from cause and effect and offers Grace to all!

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

Gib's if you were openly preaching and teaching your current views as you have preached them on this forum in my Church, I would move to have you disfellowshipped.

What has Gibs been preaching that doesn't jibe with adventism?

From what I've read - most of it is anti-Adventism and contrary to scripture.

[Gibs]

Woody, Ya say,

"From what I've read - most of it is anti-Adventism and contrary to scripture."

That is according to Woody. Many want me to preach things their way and can't do it where I don't see it. Should I? Nope!

Live and let live, God is the judge and none will find any fault in His verdict.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: RLH

What has Gibs been preaching that doesn't jibe with adventism?

From what I've read - most of it is anti-Adventism and contrary to scripture.

Do you think you could be just a tad more specific? "Most of it" describes nothing, and doesn't answer my question in any way.

[ClubV12]

Monty, my comment about the Church "is better off without them" (those who fight against the Church) is a Ellen White quote.

You might want to take that "brain washing" argument up with her....

RLH, Gib's makes no apology for his calling on people to leave the Adventist Church. He has openly declared the Adventist Church is in apostasy, says it has been since the early 1900's. As to his particular theology views, ask him, or continue to watch the forums for more information on those views. They come out from time to time.

Gibs I would very much like to see the chart you use for the timeline of future events. It would help to understand how your views connect to other "1335 Futurists".