SDA Groups "pigeon holed"

[Gordon1]

The Adventist Churches position on this is based solely on scripture.

Christ wants you as a personal student, so that YOUR position is based solely upon Scripture.

[Gordon1]

None can see the Saviour in peace without having first obtained His services as Advocate.

All sins must be confessed and forsaken. Here lies the purpose of His role as Mediator between God and men.

An indisputable Law of Heaven.

Ellen & James White, all leading pioneers knew this.

None confessed the error of their anti-Trinitarianism, because there was no error.

"Doctrinally pure from 1844-1904." No error to confess.

This cannot be held against them in the Judgment.

[ClubV12]

Remain calm Gordon.

My view and I believe I can show it is the Adventist Church view is that the trinity doctrine is NOT based on a part or the general work of Ellen White. In spite of the seemingly profound statement she makes in the 1896 letter, the fact is, she took no hard and fast position on the matter. Leaving it to the brethren to work out, as she did the young man who asked her specifically about the Holy Spirit. Her counsel was, "Be in harmony with the brethren on that question".

Following that advice, I am in harmony with the Church on the trinity doctrine.

[Dr. Rich]

As the Church in Washington has done, heresy needs to be exposed. Some call that "weeding the garden", I call it blowing the trumpet, as we are told to do.

WHAT? Please show ONE place where Jesus ever said it is our duty and job to "blow a trumpet"? You will not find it anywhere my friend! It's your job to LISTEN to the trumpet when it does blow ("He who has ears, HEAR")

[Gibs]

The Trinity doctrine is not Biblical and did not come into SDAdventism until around 1950 and after.

The Bible is adamant that there is one God and no other. 1 John 5:7 is correct,

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Yes truly one!

Mr 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Was Jesus another God? No! Read,

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God ( The Father ) was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Is the Holy Spirit another God? No! Read,

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Now consider the following verse, How many first's can you have? One only, as first means before any other.

Re 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

No problem, Jesus explained it,

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Getting to far off track here, someone feel free to start a new thread on the trinity. Meanwhile, let it go on THIS thread.

[Dr. Rich]

Yes, the Father, the Son and the Mother (Holy Spirit) are ONE Family name of God just as a husband, wife and kids are ONE Famile name!

You ask where I get that the Holy Spirit is the 'Mother' type God? From the words Jesus told Nicademas in John 3 and from Rev. 12. The Church could not be the Woman of Rev. 12 as the Church never was in heaven and did not give birth to Jesus. Jesus never said anything about being adopted (Paul's mistaken idea), and verse 17 shows that those who become God's family members are truely born of the same "Mother" as was Jesus.

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

You yourself brought up the trinity and I am sure the comment I made above should settle it. I might have made a post about it I can't remember but if I didn't I did a fuller comment on it before. It is no mystery by far, the scripture makes it very clear. It is dropped here as far as far as I'm concerned.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Hi folks,

It looks like I missed out on an animated discussion yesterday. It gets pretty esoteric (over my head) in some places. Are most of you Pastors or theologians or something? I admire your scholarship. But is salvation really this complicated? If so, I'm worried! How did all those people who didn't have access to the Scriptures or the Spirit of Prophecy ever figure it out? How do I, who is not nearly as well versed as you figure it out?

An example is the discussion about the Trinity/Godhead above. I never thought about it that much. Sometimes I pray to God in general, sometimes I pray to an individual Member of the Godhead (like Jesus or the Father). It never bothered me. Which recipe for prayer is correct? (I'm being kind of fecisious here; I think God (as a Unit or as one of the three Members) hears and answers my prayers regardless.) But seriously, is how you believe about the specifics of the Trinity (three Persons in one God, or one God manifesting Himself in 3 different ways) a salvational issue? Is being a member of the corporate church really a salvational issue? Is having questions about one or more of the 28 pillars of the church really a salvational issue? Should we be putting our energies into splitting doctrinal hairs, or mobilizing ourselves as an army to make the Kingdom of God on earth a reality? Should we be striving to turn people into traditional SDA's or simply turning people to Christ?

These types of questions mess with my head. I was a legalistic traditionalist for so long; confessing my sinfulness and my unworthiness to God constantly; but still a sinner . Was I following the Law well enough? Was I good enough? I didn't know. And I didn't dare discuss my unworthiness with my brothers and sisters; because then they would know I was a sinner!

As I have been getting my head around salvation by grace and grace alone, I have come to feel that God does indeed love me and feel good towards me; and have become more assured of and grateful for my salvation. I have come to believe that the tension between law-keeping and grace in the Scripture has to do with choices God offers us - we can choose to obtain our salvation through obedience to the law or by grace. Jesus, out of respect for our free will, will honor whatever choice we make. That's why He was so tolerant of the disciples and so critical of the Pharisees. The disciples relied on the free gift of salvation that came through their intimate relationship with Jesus and the grace that the relationship produced; while the Pharisees were committed to earning their salvation through perfect adherence to the Law. Jesus honored their choices; and held each group to the standards they chose. We have the same choice. Myself, I have to go the grace way. I can't keep the whole law perfectly even though I am no longer a slave to sin and free in Christ. Sometimes I intentionally or unintentionally sin. That's scary, to think that I freely choose to sin sometimes! God forgive me! With Paul I proclaim: "21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!" (Romans 7:21-25)

Does the fact that I still a sin make me weak? Does it make me unsaved? Does the fact that I'm having a hard time even understanding the subject of some of the debate above somehow disqualify from some eternal reward? Does the fact that I question some of the traditional tenets of our SDA faith make me a heretic? Praise God; I don't believe so!

[Woody]

Hey JoeMo - Great to have you join the saved here. You are accepted among the believed. Welcome.

[phkrause]

I'd say a very few are pastors, but I will say quite a number have done a lot of studying of the Bible as EGW has asked us to do. Than we also have her writings to help us understand parts of the Bible that are difficult. Keep studying and you will see your knowledge increase.

[Gibs]

Really Through Jesus Christ All things are revealed.

Mt 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

He was asked "Who Art Thou"? They should have known but didn't study the Word they had of the first Gospel of all the 12 verses of Isaiah chapter 53:.

He is the 'light' of the world and His Words came by the prophets and personally when He inhabited the body of a man, named Jesus.

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

JoeMo, don't forget the classic "Nature of Christ" discussion that can lead to page after page after page with no resolution.

The daily and the abomination? Not that important either. The Trinity? Don't get hung up on it. And a bunch of other stuff, your right, it just aint that important.

So WHAT is the problem with these folks in Washington state that are being asked to leave the Church or be forced out of the Church?

They've taken some new doctrine, that is opposed by the Adventist Church and made that new doctrine into a salvational issue. If you don't believe them, you will be lost, is what they say.

Some folks, around here, do essentially the same thing with lots of different aspects of interesting details about doctrine or prophecy and then say if you don't believe it exactly as they do, your "toast".

Now SOME doctrines we really DO need to accept, or were "toast". Jesus died for our sin's, reject that and you've got a serious problem. The 10 commandments are in fact binding, on most folks, in most conditions. Did they apply to the thief on the cross? Did he CARE? He didn't, but I wouldn't recommend YOU take that position, different time and place you see. Exactly how you wish to keep those commandments is between you and God. But if you "murder" someone, I'm calling you out on it!

The exact nature of Jesus, God, man, God AND man, like Adam before or after the fall? I don't let that worry me. I just trust Him. IS there a Holy Spirit, a third person of the God head? I think so, but I'm not going to argue that point. UNLESS you start with the idea that if I don't believe like you believe I will be "toast". In a case like that, the error has to be dealt with.

What especially irratates me are the LIARS on this forum that CLAIM to be Seventh-day Adventists and then start preaching doctrine fundamentally opposed to that Church. Liars is what they are, and identity theives.

[Woody]

Quote:

Are most of you Pastors

Believe ME - Pastors don't have time to get into this kind of 'stuff' ... they are too busy going about the Lord's Work.

[Dr. Rich]

Woody, your probably right although I personally know a few pastors that do keep tabs on these blogs just to keep up to date on what is happening. I don't think they post much. And Woody, I do respect your straight approach toward salvation as I have been in your shoes for most of my life.

JoeMo is correct that understanding how salvation works should be very simple to understand and from what Jesus told the Rich Young Ruler in Matt. 19, it was. Too bad he couldn't see it that way.

[JoeMo]

Hey Club,

I appreciate your response above; and I agree that there are some doctrines that cannot be compromised or we're "toast". Among those is that "Jesus died for our sins". Another is that "Jesus, the one and only Son of God, came in the flesh". There are a several others. Personally for me, I have been convicted that the Sabbath is an integral doctrine for me - not because it is a law that I am obligated to keep, but because it is tightly integrated to my personal relationship with Jesus. For me to ignore the Sabbath is equivalent to compromising my relationship with Jesus. I'm not saying it is a salvational issue for all people, but I think it is for me. For me, "salvation by grace alone" is integral for my salvation. If I felt that my performance had anything to do with my salvation, I would despair. I freely admit my membership in the group that Paul describes when he says:

"10 As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;

11 there is no one who understands;

there is no one who seeks God.

12 All have turned away,

they have together become worthless;

there is no one who does good,

not even one.” (Romans 3:12 [see also Psalms 14:1-3; 53:1-3; Eccles. 7:20])

For me to think that my works have anything to do with my salvation is presumtuous; and puts me in a place of self-denial of my otherwise pitiful state. It also puts me in a "pigeon-hole" where I can sit in judgement of those whom I perceive to be less righteous than me. That's would make me just plain arrogant.

I cannot say "good riddance" to those who are re-thinking their blind acceptance of certain SDA doctrine. At least they are thinking. Seeing them through Jesus' eyes, I hurt for them, they raise honest concerns (at least honest to them); and are threatened with church discipline and even being disfellowshipped if they continue to make waves. People who come into the church thinking that their moral or temperance problems will magically vanish with baptism are disappointed when these struggles never go away (or return with a vengeance upon giving into temptation) have nowhere to go. Many of you are veteran church members. How comfortable would you be going to the pastor or head elder to discuss your chronic drinking, smoking, or porn problem? Being open and honest in most churches exposes you to the risk of church discipline or disfellowship, not to mention losing face.

Are we a club for saints or a hospital for sinners? Is our mission to be "doctrine police" or to bring hope to the lost by accepting them into fellowship (I didn't say leadership)as they are? Should we be excluding those who don't believe in all of our 28 pillars, or should we unite with other sincere Christians (regardless of denomination)to bring the Kingdom of Heaven to earth? Until we abandon the mindset of defending our SDA turf and commit to joining a growing worldwide offensive (by God's power and through His leadership)to re-take the planet God has given us for His glory and His Kingdom, we may just remain mired in self-introspection rather than the spiritual warfare against satan that God invites us to join. We are not the enemy; the systems of this world are the enemy! Consider this - the ultimate objective of the Gospel is to totally destroy the political, economic, military, entertainment, and false-religious systems of this world through love, grace, and mercy. The Gospel was never meant to be an offensive weapon to be used against each other; nor was the Spirit of Prophecy ever intended to be a club with which to beat others.

My lack of eloquence may imply that I am not very well studied. I'm no expert at theology; but I have studied enough to know that the more I learn, the more questions I have. You all are helping me to answer some of those questions (Thanks!) I pray my elementary musing is encouraging to some of you, as well.

None of us are "wrong" in God's eyes; we are all searching for His truth. My prayer is that the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth.

The Lord tells us in Joel 2:28-32:

I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

Your sons and daughters will prophesy,

your old men will dream dreams,

your young men will see visions.

29 Even on my servants, both men and women,

I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

30 I will show wonders in the heavens

and on the earth,

blood and fire and billows of smoke.

31 The sun will be turned to darkness

and the moon to blood

before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

32 And everyone who calls

on the name of the LORD will be saved;

for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem

there will be deliverance,

as the LORD has said,

even among the survivors

whom the LORD calls.

Could it be that the latter rain is falling on the entire planet right now; preparing all who believe (not just SDAs) for the great and imminent day of His Coming? Is it possible that some of us remain unaware, because we haven't yet learned to tune in to the voice of the Holy Spirit? It's time to expand our borders and proclaim salvation to a broken world, not just a broken church.

[Dr. Rich]

JoeMo, Did Jesus say that He came to die for your (our) sins? NOPE. (see Jn. 18:37) Did Jesus ever say that salvation is by grace without doing something? Nope. Building on sandy soil (others words) is not a healthy thing to do. (Matt. 7:24-27)

Was Noah considered Righteous by God? Was Enoch Rigteous? Was Job Righteous? Was Joseph and Mary considered Righteous by God? In fact, was King David considered Righteous by God? Then what happens to 'NO ONE' being righteous? Kindo blows that out the window don't you think?

Jesus said IF YOU LOVE HIM, you WILL abide in His words (not in the words of others.

[skyblue888]

JoeMO, if we want to know where we are in the unrolling of the prophetic scroll, as far as the professed church is concerned, we need to study the past and the prophecies which delineate past, present, and future events and we need to remember that "We have FAR MORE to fear from within than from without. The hindrances to strength and success are FAR GREATER from the church than from the world." 1 S.M.122. *emphasis supplied

Note that the disciples of Christ did not turn to a broken world until the professed church (Jewish church) had definitely sealed her rejection of God's mercy and we all know that didn't happen until the stoning of Stephen in A.D.34 which ended the second call of the parable coinciding with the end of the 70 week prophecy of Daniel 9. Then the bearers of the message turned to the Gentile world and this action is represented by the third call of the parable.

It is the same today. Not until the second call of the parable of Matt.22 has been definitely rejected by the professed church can the message go to the world in a loud cry fashion.

According to Christ's Object Lessons,218, we are now living in the time of "added probation" during which those of us who are connected to Heaven are to seek for the lost sheep of Irael.

"He who is connected with Heaven will do the works of Christ. By faith in God he will have power to move upon humanity. He will seek for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. If divine power does not combine with human effort, I would not give a straw for all that the greatest man could do. The Holy Spirit is wanting in our work." See 1 S.M.411.

"The law of the divine and the human action makes the receiver a laborer together with God. It brings man where he can, united with divinity, work the works of God. Divine power and the human agency combined will be a complete success, for Christ's righteousness accomplishes everyghing." Faith & Works,27.

And only the faith that habitually lays right hold upon the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour can bring Christ and His righteousness into the life. See Faith & Works,65,66.

God bless,

sky

[JoeMo]

Hey Dr. Rich,

The "no one is righteous" stuff is God's word, not mine. You didn't mention Abraham's righteousness (I think he falls into the same category as Enoch, Joseph and Mary); but of Abraham Paul says:

" 1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those

whose transgressions are forgiven,

whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the one

whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised." (Romans 4: 1-9)

God never said Abraham was righteous; He said Abraham's faith was credited to Him as righteousness. I think God says the same about us - our faith will be credited as righteousness.

I'm not saying faith simply as intellectual assent. If we truly have convicting faith in Jesus, our faith will be confirmed by how we act on that faith.

[ClubV12]

"I'm not saying it is a salvational issue for all people, but I think it is for me."

We are all on different rungs of Jacobs ladder. What is and isn't salvational for each of us is a fluid thing, changing as time goes by.

While I will not judge the heart on who is and who isn't seeking truth or sincerely questioning doctrines from what ever source, we can and are told to judge certain actions. We need to be able to identify the "wolves" and be prepared to take action to protect the flock. It is easy to say that is God's job, but understand one way He will get that job done, through His Church. Through erring, backward, non-perfect mankind.

WHY do WE even need to preach the Gospel? Angels are far better equipped for that mission than we are. But that is the work we have been given to do, preach, teach, protect the flock.

There is a good reason some folks face discipline from the Church, censure or other discipline, up to and including removal of membership. We see this counsel in the New Testament. Those who are engaged in attacking or fighting against the Church have to be dealt with. Those who are engaged in open sin, have to be dealt with. For the sake of the larger body of believers, these things cannot be ignored. Through Church discipline the goal is not to cast out, it is to SAVE, educate, encourage those in error to come home.

My experience has been that a lot of people are sincere about exploring the details of doctrine, I certainly was. And I asked some very tough questions and did much study on my own. But I did not fight against or openly challenge the Church or the Brethren. If I did not accept the doctrine, I would have moved on. To fight against the Church and seek to change doctrine is to INVITE and ENCOURAGE Church discipline. You bring it upon yourself. A house divided cannot stand, which is why action sometimes HAS to be taken.

Sister White tells us that many people will be very sincere,,,, sincerely mistaken! The Crusaders killing Christians were convinced they were doing the right thing. They were sincere. Saul/Paul was sincere while condeming Christians. Not be feeling, not by sincerity are we to judge, but by the law and the testimony. By reason and sanctified logic working with the Holy Spirit.

[JoeMo]

Hey Club,

That was a very insightful post. I agree that the body of believers has the responsibility to hold fellow believers accountable. But Paul's counsel to treat those under discipline as unbelievers, how are we expected to treat unbelievers? If I take the entire NT into context, I think we are supposed to treat everyone the same - with love and respect.

I considered leaving the church and dropping my membership a couple of times over the past 35 years. In both cases, God asked me:

"Do you really think you will ever find a denomination that you will agree with absolutely 100% of everything they preach and teach? Good luck with that."

I had to submit to what I thought was God's leading. With God's grace, I will maintain my SDA standards and culture (as it shifts from time to time as I learn more) throughout my life - member or not.

Tell me something, Club - do you honestly believe and accept absolutely 100% of everything that proceeds from the mouth of EGW and/or the General Conference? I confess - I do not. But the SDA Church holds far more of what God has convicted me as truth than any other denomination. Does that mean I need to hold others to my standards (especially when I have a hard time meeting my own standards)? I think not. Like you said - we are all on different rungs of Jacob's ladder.

You blessed me today, Club. Thanks!

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

Ya still got to cope with this Quote from EGW. It is in her published writings and cannot be removed as it has gone out many, many years now on paper, Read up please,

" God has a church. It is not the great cathedral, neither is it the national establishment, neither is it the various denominations; it is the people who love God and keep His commandments. "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matthew 18:20). Where Christ is even among the humble few, this is Christ's church, for the presence of the High and Holy One who inhabiteth eternity can alone constitute a church. {UL 315.5}

Where two or three are present who love and obey the commandments of God, Jesus there presides, let it be in the desolate place of the earth, in the wilderness, in the city enclosed in prison walls. The glory of God has penetrated the prison walls, flooding with glorious beams of heavenly light the darkest dungeon. His saints may suffer, but their sufferings will, like the apostles of old, spread their faith and win souls to Christ and glorify His holy name. The bitterest opposition expressed by those who hate God's great moral standard of righteousness should not and will not shake the steadfast soul who trusts fully in God. . . . {UL 315.6}

They that will be doers of the word are building securely, and the tempest and storm of persecution will not shake their foundation, because their souls are rooted to the eternal Rock.--Letter 108, Oct. 28, 1886, to her older sister and her husband who had not accepted the Sabbath truth.' {UL 315.7}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

JoeMo, Those words about 'no one righteous' are not God's words, they were from David. Paul attempted to use those words but twisted them around to fit what he wanted them to say just as he did with the faith that Abraham had. Come on now, did Abraham really have faith when he refused to believe what God told him about a son?

There is ONE big foundational problem here: The mistaken belief that the whole bible is the word of God OR that the whole bible is the inspired word of God. There is absolutly NO positive evidence to support that mistaken belief! Jesus did verify the Law and the Prophets as the truth, but as far as what David and Solomon wrote, nope.

There was no such thing as the bible we now have today, back at the time of Jesus on this earth. Yet it may surprise many that Jesus didn't read from the book of Romans or Galations in the synagogue.

When Paul wrote 2Tim. 3:15-16, there was no bible either. Matter of fact, Paul was clearly talking about the "sacred writings" they had learned as children--way before Jesus and Paul!

For those who say that God had to keep anything false out of the bible, may I ask then why God didn't keep Satan out of the Garden of Eden? Are you going to blame God when Jesus says to you that He never knew you?

May I also ask why Jesus gave so many warnings about those who would come saying they were of Jesus, but deceiving many--if everything found in the bible is the truth? Just what was the prophecy about the wheat and the tares all about then? The seeds of Jesus can be found in the NT. So tell me, where were the weed seeds that Satan had sowed? After all both looked alike for about 2000 years. What is the difference? Can any of you answer this?

[ClubV12]

Gib's that quote about where two or three are gathered, there is God's church is so beautiful. How sad that you would use such beauty in such an ugly way as a means to call people out of Gods Church, the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

You've become SO unbalanced you are unable to discern the proper application of the work of the Spirit of Prophecy or the bible. In either case, often misapplying or misinterpreting the intention.

You KNOW, yet you fail to acknowledge, the many many quotes of Ellen White that show God has a Church, on earth, comprised of Brethren, organized, recognized and blessed by Him, the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Should you find yourself in a situation where only two or three are gathered and cannot join in fellowship with a congregation of the body of believers, even there, God will bless and be present in that Church.

But this will NOT be the case when you spurn His Church, when you cast reproach on it, when you fight against it, when you scatter God's people from it. This is the work of the devil, none other, this is an evil activity, cursed are the men and women that undertake it.

[ClubV12]

JoeMo asks do I believe everything the SOP and the G.C. proclaims?

My immediate thought is "yes", but you know, I never really thought about it. What I find is that the more I study the more their ideas become my ideas, the more harmony develops. In particular with the Spirit of Prophecy, which like the bible, cannot be understand a sentence at a time, it must be studied to find the context, time and place.

Perhaps a better question would be: Is there some specific rule, law, guideline from the G.C. that I am NOT in harmony with? No, I can't say there is. I can't say I go out of my way to find one either. There ARE some rules, laws, guidelines at a CONFERECE level I do not agree with, but I adhere to Conference policy whenever and where ever I can, so long as it does not violate my own conscience. I will not be a back seat driver or second guess their work. I will not dismiss potential error either, as Sister White says, I will protest with pen and voice if necessary! And while I do that, I will send in my tithes and offerings, because they are offered to God, not man. The Church, the Conference, the G.C. will answer to HIM if they are not good stewards of my offerings to Him. The widow with her two mites did not question what the Jewish leaders would do with her offering, it was not for them, her offering was for God. Bless her heart, I want to give that lady a hug!