SDA Groups "pigeon holed"

[Naomi]

Quote:

Excellent post JoeMo, I've also been blessed by a few on C/A, and I always pray that when I post it doesn't discouraged but is also a blessing to others.

And that U R PK

JoeMo, Pkrause, Woody and many others .. I only want to second, or third, or whatever, that I have been inspired, encouraged and made to feel close to The Family of God through CA. Thank you everyone for your many blessings. Let's keep encouraging each other.

[Dr. Rich]

It is a shake down that began quite a few years back. For me I just have never believed I must have my name on any churches books. I just love the truth of all things pertaining to Christianity and labor for it as best I can.

My role is not to condeman but that all like the Bereans would study to see what is truth. The truth is what we must have and if possible every point.

I at present do not place myself in any of those groups and I like parts of what is taught of the ministries mentioned.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

While I would say ditto to what Gibs wrote, I don't follow any of those pigion holes as I am NOT a christian per se, but a bond servant of Jesus Christ (RE: Rev.1:1 and 14:5). Therefore I don't follow anyone or any ministry other than the words of Jesus Christ. If He was 'THE WAY', then that is the same WAY I go.

[Dr. Rich]

Sky says no main stream Adventist groups are teaching righteousness by faith today, that simple truth.

I see it everywhere Sky. This last Sabbath it was once again the subject of discourse in the Sabbath School lesson as we considered the law and the law giver. How is it that you DON'T see this truth being preached? I suspect it has something to do with your concept that those who remain in the Seventh-day Adventist Church will be forever unable to grasp righteousness by faith. Quite the opposite I believe . Those who have been in the Church, rejected it and left will never be able to understand it even when they think they do.

Ellen White wrote about, preached it, taught her entire career. It's not nearly as illusive as some make it sound. I see it everywhere.

But ClubV12, did Jesus ever say or teach saved by grace or righteousness by faith? Nope!

[Dr. Rich]

Sky wrote: "But these works, in and of themselves, do not play a part in the salvation of the soul. The Lord will reward us for these works but the idea that these works play a part in the salvation of the soul or in merit, the angels of God reject as treason!"

WHAT? Where did you ever get that idea from? Blasphemy is saying that the whole bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Calling the Holy Spirit a liar is not good. Revelaion is straight from Jesus. If He said we all will be rewarded by our deeds/works, then so be it and why argue with that?

[Dr. Rich]

I'll be honest with you, Sky - this issue has been a dilemna for me for over 30 years (I'm in my 60's). On the one hand, I can't realistically believe that I have done anything at all to "deserve" salvation. But if I make a mantra out of declaring my unworthiness, I feel like I am giving the evil one entrance to accuse and discourage me. Yet, by realizing my unworthiness, I also realize my need for a Savior.

On the other hand, if I declare myself as having overcome, am I hardening my concience against the wooing and enabling of the Spirit to continue overcoming; and relying on "cheap grace" to get me through?

I thank God that He has brought some consistency and balance to my spiritual eyesight lately - where I am "sure" of my salvation as evidenced by the opportunities (real or imagined)that God sends my way; and have seen positive results in my spiritual and moral life. I even hear (or think I hear) Him "speaking" to me sometimes!

I don't want to be double-minded and swept away with every wind of doctrine (or lack thereof). I also don't want to limit my mind to just one way of thinking to the exclusion of any new ideas. I did that for 15 years while I fully embraced the legalism of "historic" Adventism; and I've been trying to recover from that for almost 10 years now. I am currently comfortable with leaning fully on the grace and merit of Jesus for my salvation; and assuming that any good works in me are the fruit of that grace and merit.

Thanks to you, Sky, I have introduced a new concept to my spiritual vocabulary. Your post on the merits of Christ had a profound positive impact on me.

Hey JoMo, Ever learn to fly a plane? Overcoming sin is much the same. Only your teacher will know when you are ready to fly the plane yourself (and what a frightful thing that was too!)--same goes for becoming righteous. Only God will know when you have overcome sin and are ready to be sealed by God.

[ClubV12]

So Dr. Rich, you don't call yourself a Christian, I'm OK with that, I tend to agree with you on that, I don't think you are either. The term is to often just thrown around, people forget or don't consider what it MEANS to BE a Christian.

Call yourself what ever you like, I guess.

WHY do you call yourself a Seventh-day Adventist? You clearly have little in common with that denomination, you fight against it rather than support it, so WHY do you call yourself that?

Of course the same question could be asked of many on this forum. If you have left the Church and are fighting against it, WHY do you use that name? Seems a bit sacrareligous to me....

[Overaged]

Club; I noticed there is no list of "ministries" for group 4.

I see your OP here as a poor selection of choices. 1) The description of said groups, especially #1 is not accurate. 2) I just belong to the church. I don't worry about all these groups who want to tell me how wrong everything is. They all have just as many; if not more skeletons in their closets as the church. One day; they will all learn the truth that they are no better than the rest of us, and that "we are all one in Christ Jesus."

Infact; in response to something brother Olger said; I do not hesitate to call for reform amongst ALL of the "independent ministries."

[Dr. Rich]

Hmmm? I suppose they said the same thing about Jesus--Him being a 'Jew', yet teaching them things that were the truth, but those things did not agree with the then present teachings of the leaders of the Jews.

When I was baptised I never had to give an oath to any doctrine like they have today. My goodness, those doctrins are made by man, not by God! (See the problem) Jesus said to go to the whole world and teach them ONLY what Jesus said and taught. Period! (Matt. 28) You will NEVER find any of the 28 doctrines in the words of Jesus! Try it and see for yourself!

It is clear to me that the Adventists fit the description of the Kingdom of Heaven right NOW--the sleeping virgins found in Matthew 25 and Sardis in Rev. 3. Read Rev. 3:4 and notice that only a FEW are found to be prepared and were not spiritually sleeping? Those 'few' became the next group (6th) and you will NOT find anything wrong with them--just a warning for them not to loose their 'crown'. These are clearly the 144k, the first fruits that are sealed by Jesus prior to the time of trouble. OK?

[Overaged]

JoeMo, Pkrause, Woody and many others .. I only want to second, or third, or whatever, that I have been inspired, encouraged and made to feel close to The Family of God through CA. Thank you everyone for your many blessings. Let's keep encouraging each other.

[ClubV12]

One thing I would like to correct with group #3 is that some "MAY or MAY NOT" be preaching this or that. Which I think I noted for Groups 1 and 2 but missed that for 3.

As to Group 4, THAT list could be exceedingly long! I don't think #4 is a serious issue as they become apparent fairly quickly. Group 1, while controversial in some respects, "generally" is consistent from a leadership stand point. Of course any group has some rogue elements to it.

I was surprised to see that some felt Hartland was questionable in Group 1. While there are certainly some rogue elements there, I am very impressed with their overall structure and support for the mainline Church.

Group #2 is somewhat problematic, as I can see in some cases where a person or family may have to disassociate themselves from a local Adventist Church. In order to seek the best environment for them and their needs. The problem is, what if there is no other Adventist Church within a reasonable distance that would work for you? Then what? Very serious to get to far from the body of believers, no matter how bad it may look.

Group #3 is difficult to spot, not at all clear, this is perhaps the most troubling of all. NO group is written in stone, these are just general impressions I've gotten in looking around, talking to people, and I may be profoundly wrong on some.

I SUSPECT that many more "self supporting" institutions may be applicable to group #2 and that remains a concern.

I also found it interesting that some folks aren't sure what group they fit in. If you not SURE, you don't belong in 1 or 2, and THATS for sure!!! #3 and #4 are certainly applicable to some who post on this forum!

[Gibs]

The body of believers to be in is His Ekklesia and these for the most part have been crowded out. There is no lack of fellowship among these. In reality they were pushed out as I was and many were disfellowshipped.

Just as the reformers could not evict the errors come in, it pushed them out. It had become so that they had no place and were reviled, loathed and hated.

It had to be and has to be again the true Church must separate as called for.

No I don't name her Babylon yet but when she rescindes the Sabbath it is surely true.

Re 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

The Sabbath is the burr that the world hates and SDAdventism would like now to just be called Adventist church.

The message and the name cannot be compromised as happend in Catholicism to bring in the world and Adventists wants to do the same and has almost totally, the Sabbath being the chief burr.

It is a sad day and has been for many years in which the saints fought hard against the incoming errors. I've lost track of the years but it began with Walter Martin, Barnhouse and Ken Samples meetings with many of our leading men at Campus Hill, Loma Linda, CA. They sold us out.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Gib's says,

"No I don't name her Babylon yet..."

If you continue on your present path, you will, and then your cup will be full and it will be impossible to turn back. It may already be impossible as you have stated that nothing, no reaoning, no text, no verse, no SOP quote, no counsel will dissaude you from your path.

Come home Brother Gibs, before it's to late.

[Overaged]

The Sabbath is the burr that the world hates and SDAdventism would like now to just be called Adventist church.

Brother Gibs; it is important to note that the church has requested that when people want to use an abbreviation for the name "Seventh-day Adventist Church;" that the official abbreviation must be "Adventist Church;" rather than what people have been using, namely, "SDA." The abbreviation "Adventist Church" is just that; it is only an abbreviation, and in no way indicates any desire to hide from the full name of Seventh-day Adventist.

Perhaps; if we were to apply what you are saying here, to your own stated situation, we would have to presume you are hiding from the name too by only referring to yourself as "the ekklesia?"

I have asked you before to please show us where the Bible calls people out of the Church. The Bible clearly does not do this. It calls them into the church. It also acknowledges all of the short-comings you name; but it does not use these to say that the church will fall. To sum it up, the Bible ALWAYS shows the Church as triumphant.

[Dr. Rich]

Jesus had many disciples but when He told them that they must "eat" (consume) His blood and body (meaning what He said and taught), they didn't understand and many left after that. (John 6:48-65) Well, that's how many are today in the Adventist church. They have a real hard time of following the words of Jesus because of the distractions of others who say they were/are of Christ, but have actually deceived them. Jesus said that His yoke is easy, but most yell back saying; "are you kidding me, heck we don't want to wear any yoke because Paul said we have been set free".

Ever notice who the whole book of Revelation is/was written to/for? And more importantly who it was NOT written to? It was NOT written for the Muslims, Catholics, Baptists, Christians or even the Adventists! It was just written ONLY to and for those who would become Jesus' bond servants! Why? Same reason as Jesus explained in Matthew 13:9-13. Friends, a bondservant has NOT been set free until Jesus sets them free, thru the Holy Spirit giving them a new birth INTO the family of God--NOT as adoption, but by birth.

[Gibs]

Overaged,

I answered your question also to club and not sure on which post here but the fact is we were "PUSHED" out. Just like the one on this forum "disfellowship" the futurists.

I've felt the ire of the brethern and that is a revelation to one who it falls on. But because of what I see I must and do step out of the "box".

Jesus and all the Apostles stepped out of the box too and they crucified Jesus and all the Apostles were martyred except John and he was exciled.

It is not a popularity contest and I don't care to win it either.

On the abreviation why not just SDA, that is shorter than Adventist. That would make it clear the fact of the seventh day which is the witness to the world we are to make.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

Gib's says,

"No I don't name her Babylon yet..."

If you continue on your present path, you will, and then your cup will be full and it will be impossible to turn back. It may already be impossible as you have stated that nothing, no reaoning, no text, no verse, no SOP quote, no counsel will dissaude you from your path.

Come home Brother Gibs, before it's to late.

I am home thank you. The ire of the brethern pushed us out and it was then we found where home was. It was with and of those who follow the Lamb where ever He leadeth them to green pastures. The truth is the guiding light and that is how we know His voice, that quality is the truth.

Error and deception is our worst enemy and Satan and his are good at stealing the march on men.

My advice is don't imbibe it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Gibs says,

"In reality they were pushed out as I was and many were disfellowshipped."

That "excuse" won't work when you come before the throne of God Brother Gibs. It is no different than the excuse Eve tried using. The devil made me do it. And Adam, the woman gave me the fruit. The Church pushed me out. The Church has guidelines for disfellowshipping in the Church Manual. There are about a dozen reasons one may be disfellowshipped. ONE of them is failure to follow the counsel of the brethren! If the counsel of the brethren is that you must stop preaching error, regardless of whether you think it's error or not, you must stop. You cannot continue preaching/teaching error openly in and around the Church or to fellow members. If you do so, you violate the Church Manual in that you have disregarded and ignored the counsel of the brethren, which was to "stop".

But what if the counsel of the brethren is WRONG???? So what? Have you no faith in God to correct that error in due time, in HIS time? Sister Whites counsel is clear, we are to lay to one side our cherished views and press together. We are NOT called to be in open defiance of the Church. There is a way to protest with pen and voice. Doing that by a riot, by removing yourself, figting against the Church, is not the way. THAT is the way of the world, not the way of a Christian trusting in God.

If you DON'T "stop" and are disfellowshipped that is not the fault of the Church, it was you decision, your action, your choice. ALL of those who will perish will be by their choice. It is not Gods fault, the fault of the Church or anybody's fault. Each of us will be judged independantly.

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

Start pointing out the errors that has come in and see if the ire isn't raised against you. You are not conversing with one who hasn't had the experience. You know of the errors and you should witness against it as a true saint must do even if it isn't popular and you would be reviled.

Club many here in the local churchs know of the errors and don't care. In fact there is a very few that do not. Where is the backbone if one of his witnesses. we are the same as witnessis of the error if we do not. I challenge you to step and be counted on the ones you know of. It is our duty to know the truth of things and no one has an excuse these days unless they are settled on their lees.

All it is is a social club. My wife is a liberal in theology but she don't go no more as she don't see it is worthwhile. I know several here with the same problem, they want fellowship but have a greater need of edification and it is not there.

Let's discuss where you find I present error. I see prophecy different than you do and all historicists but do you presume to tell me I got to bend to your views. No way, you see I'm a free man in Jesus Christ and He only is my Master.

I can see you would like to shut down all opposing views and that is not what these forums is about. This the read at the top of this website,

"Welcome with open arms fellow believers who don’t see things the way you do.

And don’t jump all over them every time they do or say something you don’t agree with – even when it seems that they are strong on opinions but weak in the faith department.

Remember, they have their own history to deal with. Treat them gently. Romans 14.1: The Message"

One pastor we had got so mad at me and a few others he quit here and went into a south eastern state from here. He didn't have grounds to have me disfellowshipped and he never tried. We had shut down the Lab 1,2,3 stuff and it quit when he asked us to buy a book "from frogs to pricesses". Immediately I and another brother stood up and simutaneously stated "that's of the occult". We looked at each other astonished that the other spoke the same words at the same time.

Club it's all a sad story. One day when it's too late many will learn the truth but can't see it now. I am of the opinion that our conference here is on the extreme liberal side and has been many, many years.

We must be critical for the truth, it is a precious gemm.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Gib's if you were openly preaching and teaching your current views as you have preached them on this forum in my Church, I would move to have you disfellowshipped. You would of course then say I was "forcing" you out. No, I am not, I am following the guidelines of an organization with minimum standards for maintaining membership. It is unreasonable to continue membership in ANY group when you are fundamentally opposed to what that group stands for. Boy Scouts, Elks Club, whatever, they all have certain minimum standards to become and stay a member of that group. As do Adventists, violate the minimum standards and risk being removed, it's a universal truth that applies to virtually any group!

As your views are not in harmony with the General Conference views, what alternative would you recommend? That the G.C. come into harmony with YOUR views? That the Church follow YOUR theology? Thats not an option. If you feel the G.C. is in apostasy and as a result have left the Church, I'm OK with that. Sister White says of those who oppose the Church, we are better off without them. Which is a polite way of saying, "Don't let the screen door hit your backside on the way out."

Thats the reality check, there is a time for tears and sadness over a member leaving or being disfellowshipped. There is also a time to put away the sack cloth and mourning and move on with the work Adventist have been given. Which is reaching the world with the third angels message. This work of "calling out" Adventists from the body of believers, is the work of a different spirit and one I will oppose with pen and voice.

The thing that really bothers me though is when folks have left the Church and then continue to refer to themselves as Seventh-day Adventists. THAT is "identity theft" of the highest order.

[John317]

I agree, and if I were openly teaching such things, I would be amazed if I wasn't disfellowshipped.

It would only mean that just about anything goes nowadays.

[Dr. Rich]

I agree, and if I were openly teaching such things, I would be amazed if I wasn't disfellowshipped.

It would only mean that just about anything goes nowadays.

It is my prayer Gibs, that those here and as many as possible of our brothers and sisters in the SDA church will some day SOON see the 'problems' as we have seen and do what Jesus said to do in 6 out of the 7 warnings to the KOH in Rev. 2 and 3--and that is to repent and follow Jesus.

Sadly, as you probably would agree Gibs, way too many will probably refuse to open their eyes and step out of the box they have built around them.

[Overaged]

ClubV12,

Start pointing out the errors that has come in and see if the ire isn't raised against you. You are not conversing with one who hasn't had the experience. You know of the errors and you should witness against it as a true saint must do even if it isn't popular and you would be reviled.

[Inga]

Interesting list.

I had not heard that Amazing Discoveries advocates separation from the church, although they do promote some extreme positions.

Can you document that they advocate separation from the church?

[Gibs]

Club and John,

First grounds have to be had to disfellowship anyone. You would have no grounds to disfellowship any one as it isn't supposed to be "your" church and many are sitting on the seats to have to agree. There is certain rules to be met and unless it's a biased jury it don't happen very often. There is usually a few true ones to hold the fort. If there isn't it probably is best anyway to go.

You two if you want to do something get the church back on track so I can participate again.

I do not see His Church as you do, His are scattered about in all denominations and need to find one where error isn't being upheld and taught. He is worshipped in Spirit and Truth and so we meet in Spirit and in Truth from where ever we are, completly around the globe.

That is His Ekklesia, called out ones, His Remnant who will not imbibe error.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

Club and John,

First grounds have to be had to disfellowship anyone. You would have no grounds to disfellowship any one as it isn't supposed to be "your" church and many are sitting on the seats to have to agree. There is certain rules to be met and unless it's a biased jury it don't happen very often. There is usually a few true ones to hold the fort. If there isn't it probably is best anyway to go.

You two if you want to do something get the church back on track so I can participate again.

I do not see His Church as you do, His are scattered about in all denominations and need to find one where error isn't being upheld and taught. He is worshipped in Spirit and Truth and so we meet in Spirit and in Truth from where ever we are, completly around the globe.

That is His Ekklesia, called out ones, His Remnant who will not imbibe error.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Good post Gibs. My pastor and our church board came to me and told me NOT to talk about the bible to anyone while I was on THEIR property. Of all the nerve! I am older than all of them and have been a member longer than any of them and demanded to know what I was saying that did NOT agree with what Jesus said? Well, they all shut up after I demanded a 'hearing' on the matter and also demanded a full open debate. Thing is, NO ONE can ever find ONE thing wrong with the words of Jesus-and that is why I stand on them alone!

I suppose they remembered when I stood up in a church board meeting while our conference president was there and called the president an out right liar and I had the proof with me to back it up. Wow--did that cause some problems! Hey, I warned them NOT to mess with me as I told them I could very easy investigate each one of them too. So Club and John and 'Thunder', (and all of us-me too) lets take the log jam out of your own eye before we make fun of anyone here again.