SDA Groups "pigeon holed"

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

Used it in an ugly way? Phooey man I just posted it for your Perusal.

And another thing is it is scriptural also. EGW just puts it in a put together commentary. It's there and I think you've read it but now when you come across the verses they will pop out at you.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Gib's says,

"Used it in an ugly way? Phooey man I just posted it for your Perusal."

No, you didn't post it for MY perusal Gibs, you have posted that quote many times, to support your agenda that the Seventh-day Adventist Church has fallen and people should leave that Church. It is not only ugly, it is shameful the way you misuse Sister White's work to scatter and fight against God's body of believers.

She warned us that such people would come, and even use her work against Seventh-day Adventist in a court of law to condem God's people. Who better to attack the Church than one who knows it well from the inside? There are wolves among us....

[Dr. Rich]

Is that why EGW just put the phony story about Noah in P and P? Was it just simple commentary on her part when she wrote that Noah preached for 120 years about the flood? No where can anyone show from the bible that Noah ever did that. The evidence proves otherwise! Her fictional writings must have been "simple commentary".

[John317]

May I also ask why Jesus gave so many warnings about those who would come saying they were of Jesus, but deceiving many--if everything found in the bible is the truth? Just what was the prophecy about the wheat and the tares all about then? The seeds of Jesus can be found in the NT. So tell me, where were the weed seeds that Satan had sowed? After all both looked alike for about 2000 years. What is the difference? Can any of you answer this?

This has been answered many times before, but you keep saying the same old things just as if no one has answered you.

You claim to be of Jesus, don't you? Is it possible you are among those who are deceiving?

You teach that Paul was a liar and that he had a demon; also that Satan deceived Peter on the Day of Pentecost into believing that the Holy Spirit inspired him when in reality it was Satan who inspired Peter.

I know Satan would love for people to believe those things.

[Dr. Rich]

Ever notice when people can't answer simple questions they say that the questions have already been answered or they make fun of the one who asks the questions? Since when have I ever said that I am of Christ? Huh? I simply said that I am a bondservant of Christ. Jesus NEVER told me to tell anyone anything other that what is said in Matthew 28:20. So how come Jesus didn't say the same thing to Saul? How come Saul/Paul did NOT teach or preach the same things that Jesus said or taught?

[phkrause]

Is that why EGW just put the phony story about Noah in P and P? Was it just simple commentary on her part when she wrote that Noah preached for 120 years about the flood? No where can anyone show from the bible that Noah ever did that. The evidence proves otherwise! Her fictional writings must have been "simple commentary".

Dr Rich does it seem so far fetched that Noah would of preached to those around? I mean 120 years, building away and you think in all that time not one person would've asked him what he was doing? And Noah would just ignore them? Does the Bible have to say every little thing someone had to say or do? Even without EGW saying that Noah preached to those around him, and I had just the Bible to go by, common sense would tell me that Noah had to of, said, talked, preached, etc., call it whatever you like, something to those around him?

[John317]

Since when have I ever said that I am of Christ? Huh? I simply said that I am a bondservant of Christ.

If you are not of Christ, who are you of?

Claiming to be bondservant of Christ is the same as claiming to be of Christ.

People are either of Christ or of the Devil; that is, we are either children of God or children of the devil.

1 John 3:5-10

You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. [6] No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. [7] Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. [8] Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. [9] No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. [10] By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

[Dr. Rich]

Paul said (spoke and wrote) that he was sent by Christ. EGW said and wrote that some things she said were from God. My mother was a righteous woman but she NEVER said she was sent by Jesus/God. There is a difference John, it's a big difference too. I am a simple follower of Jesus thru His words given to us by His eyewitnesses. God has never spoken to me that I am aware of. Sure, I have had a vision and so many dreams that I can't remember them all, but the vision I had was clearly from Satan (over 25 years ago) because the moment I yelled out "In the name of Jesus, get out of here Satan" the vision was gone! But I now see how easy it can be to become deceived by such thing!

[ClubV12]

I'm not convinced, Dr.Rich, that you can see how easy it is to become deceived. I base that opinion on what I believe is your incredibly false theology and bizarre interpretation of prophecy.

The thing about delusion is you don't know when your operating under it. If you did, it wouldn't BE delusion.

From my study I am convinced that Ellen White was a true prophet in every regard. Now I can leave room for sincere seeker of truth to question that and consider the evidence. As it concerns Paul and the other biblical authors it is truly bizzare that a Christian, so called, would even consider that they were not inspired. By this fact alone, I KNOW, without a doubt, that you are working under a delusion. Of course you cannot see that. But more troubling is that when some folks stay in a deluded state for so many years, preach error for so many years, are in rebellion against the brethren it is virtually impossible to recover from that.

The Lord says He will send a strong delusion to those who insist on pursuing error, that they may believe a lie. The humility required to overcome this is so significant, there is little hope of recovery. The price of heaven is not to great Dr.Rich, consider your theology with a new humble spirit, perhaps, there is still hope. God bless....

[Dr. Rich]

Club, can you show me from the bible where Noah preached 120 years about the flood? Please?

[ClubV12]

No, I won't Dr.Rich. We have been over this particular question many times and you refuse to see it. There is no point in discussing it further.

I am reminded of the woman who followed Paul around the city for a few days crying out about how these men worshiped God. Her message was essentially correct, but the SPIRIT was certainly NOT the Holy Spirit! And Paul recognized that and took action. I discern that the spirit by which you profess great piety, like the woman, is not that of the Holy Spirit.

I rebuke this question and the many others you ask, they serve only to annoy and sidetrack seekers of truth.

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Is that why EGW just put the phony story about Noah in P and P? Was it just simple commentary on her part when she wrote that Noah preached for 120 years about the flood? No where can anyone show from the bible that Noah ever did that. The evidence proves otherwise! Her fictional writings must have been "simple commentary".

Dr Rich does it seem so far fetched that Noah would of preached to those around? I mean 120 years, building away and you think in all that time not one person would've asked him what he was doing? And Noah would just ignore them? Does the Bible have to say every little thing someone had to say or do? Even without EGW saying that Noah preached to those around him, and I had just the Bible to go by, common sense would tell me that Noah had to of, said, talked, preached, etc., call it whatever you like, something to those around him?

Your common sense is not the same as mine. God told Noah, and I believe God didn't lie, that ONLY him and his family would go into that ark! Common sense would tell me to keep my mouth shut about it. God also said that everyone else were going to die! What good would it have done Noah to say a thing to anyone else? I mean what would Noah say? Perhaps something like "Na Na, Na na Naa--all of you guys are gonna drown except me. Na na, Na na na". Stuff like that would get one killed!

Now the real proof: Matthew 24:37-39. "...and they did NOT understand until the flood came and took them all away..."

Jesus did NOT lie! If they did NOT know or understand, then IF Noah had EVEN ONCE said anything about the coming flood, then someone would have known or understood! Therefore, it is clear to ME that EGW made up stories (fiction more or less) to sell books. These fictional stories have caused many a good person believe in things not true (lies) as was prophesied in Rev. 2:18-25. Even IF she assumed or presummed things not known, she wrote as if those things were the truth. That my friends is intentional dis-information.

This is just ONE place she did this, but I can find many other places just like this. It kinda reminds me of songs that say "He died of a broken heart". Really? Did the Passover lamb jump up on the table and die of a broken heart? Not on your life it didn't! Neither did Jesus! Get the picture?

[JoeMo]

First, the easy response - Club, Thanks for your honesty. I appreciate the boldness you show in sharing your faith.

Second, the difficult response - Dr. Rich, I don't even know how to begin to respond to your post:

"There is ONE big foundational problem here: The mistaken belief that the whole bible is the word of God OR that the whole bible is the inspired word of God. There is absolutly NO positive evidence to support that mistaken belief! Jesus did verify the Law and the Prophets as the truth, but as far as what David and Solomon wrote, nope."

I simply can't wrap my head around a "follower" or "bond-servant" of Christ not accepting Scripture as God's word. True, Bible writers were God's PENMEN and not His PEN - God did not dictate the bible to the writers; they wrote down the impressions they received from God; and it was probably filtered through their own baggage and tailored to their audience. Also true, some of the bible is the author's opinion and not necessarily God's word. Paul even admits this a couple times concerning his own writing.

I have based my entire faith in the Bible (which I believe to be the word of God) for over 45 years - ever since I lost my confidence in Catholic doctrine. I can't even imagine my Christian faith without a biblical basis. How can we answer your questions with authority unless we use scripture as a basis? If you have doubts about us using scripture as a reference, I won't even ask how you feel about EGW.

I have had too many profound spiritual experiences that confirm what the Bible says to even consider any of it a myth. Do I believe in a literal 6-day creation? Absolutely! Do I believe that Noah preached for 120 years. Not necessarily, but I don't dismiss it. Genesis 6:1-3 says:

"1 When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”

Noah was doing something for 120 years before the flood came. It may have included preaching; or it may have taken him that long to build a boat. Exactly what he did isn't a salvational issue for me; so I don't care beyond the fact that whatever it was, it took 120 years. But this statement is only valid if you accept the Bible as fact.

Please, don't send me a bunch of examples of Bible inconsistencies. I've seen them all; and I have never seen anything that makes me doubt scripture's veracity. Who cares whether Jesus cast demons out of 2 pocessed guys at Gadarenes (Matt. 8:28) or out of one pocessed guy at Gerasenes (Mark 5:1 and Luke 8:26)? The major take-away from this story is that the Father gave Jesus the power to cast out demons!

I apologize if this post sounds confrontational or aggressive; but that comment floored me.

[Dr. Rich]

JoeMo, I do appreciate your response. You left the Catholics for SDA, and now I don't want you to jump out of the pan and into the fire. If I had not been studying the bible several times a day for ovr 20 years, then I suppose I could still see things your way. I will admit that I am a picky cuss, but that comes with the job of being an investigative lawyer. Frankly, I will not put up with people who just assume things without proof. I refuse to trust my soul to blind faith. Replacing faith with truthful facts works for me. Most people just assume the bible we have today is the word of God because others told them because they assumed the same thing. A lie will never be the truth no matter how long people believed the lie.

As an investigator, I started asking questions as to who was at fault for causing milions to assume the Sabbath had been changed from Saturday to Sunday. (Much like trying to find the real killer to a murder) Everything pointed to the words of Paul. After that it was easy to spot the many problems and the cause for them all pointed to Paul's words, and not any words of Jesus. Investigating as to why, when and how the bible we have today was made and put together, showed me that God was NOT involved at all and that it was an attempt to get the Jews, Christians and Pagans all to believe in the same thing. It's no fluk as to why there are so many who call themselves New Testiment Christians or Born Again Christians!

It was harder for me to spot the problems with EGW as I first had to read almost everything she wrote. That took several years, but the notes I took and difficulty with getting the "White Estate" to open up some of the articles for me to view gave me concern as to what they were hiding. After all, not only was I a staunch EGW believer, but so much so that MY picture is on the wall of the GC on the path to heaven in the 'shut door' vision.

As for your 'faith', I sure hope, for your sake, that it does not get shaken when things start to happen that do not agree with what EGW wrote. We know for sure that just a few (Rev. 3:4) will abide in the real truth and try as I may, I seriously doubt if many will join those few.

[JoeMo]

Thanks for your candid reply Dr. Rich. I can understand your sceptic attitude - I myself work in Corporate Governance, Risk, and Compliance (i.e., I'm a corporate cop). I know you can't blindly take people at their word; especially once they have lied to you. My experience tells me that once a person deceives me in an investigation, it takes a long time (maybe the rest of their career)for them to regain my trust; and I verify everything that they tell me. Conversely, if, after several encounters, I find that when people are consistently open and honest with me, I trust their word and their judgement; and don't check their work as carefully as I check the work of a someone who has purposefully deceived me.

I have studied how the Canon was put together - basically by Catholic bishops - and it has caused me some consternation in the past. However, after years of taking Bible proclamations and promises as fact and acting on them, I still don't have a reason to doubt the scriptures - God's Word has always "worked" for me. My experience (thus far) has borne out the truth contained therein. I've never equated EGW's writings with scripture; so I'm not as convicted concerning her writings as I am concerning scripture. I've seen too much evidence of plagarism and extensive revision by the White Estate to put all my faith in that basket. (Don't even get me started on compilations!)

As far as my faith goes, I appreciate your concern for it being shaken when a certain noxious brown substance hits the fan. I have witnessed enough supernatural signs and wonders in my life to feel like I live in the Book of Acts. My faith in SDAs and EGW might get shaken, but, by God's grace, my faith in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (and their inspired word) won't be shaken (at least not shaken apart) by anything that happens in the church or the political/military systems of this world. Now that I've said it, I hope i can live up to it.

[Lysimachus]

I have studied how the Canon was put together - basically by Catholic bishops - and it has caused me some consternation in the past. However, after years of taking Bible proclamations and promises as fact and acting on them, I still don't have a reason to doubt the scriptures - God's Word has always "worked" for me. My experience (thus far) has borne out the truth contained therein. I've never equated EGW's writings with scripture; so I'm not as convicted concerning her writings as I am concerning scripture.

JoeMo,

This is where you just went off the road. This so called "evidence" that you have seen is what is termed "uneducated evidence". Trust me, over the last 15 years of intensive research, I have learned a lot about this so called "plagiarism", and I can look at you straight in the eye and guarantee you now, with confidence, that it does not exist, and she did no plagiarism whatsoever. The evidence is so overwhelming, I don't even know where to begin. I now know, with certainty, that she is a prophet of God.

I'm going to provide you some links that completely and utterly dismantle and demolish all possible notions of "plagiarism" associated with Sister White, and I trust that you will take out time to do some honest investigation into the following research:

1. An Analysis of the Literary Dependency of Ellen White

2. Answers to the Plagiarism Charge (numerous links from this website too)

3. Ellen White Did Not Plagiarize - and here are the facts to prove it

4. Was Ellen White Really a Plagiarist Examining the Evidence

5. Ellen White Under Fire (Purchase Book - 2010) - by Jud Lake

6. 101 Questions About Ellen White and Her Writings - by Elder William Fagal

7. Messenger of the Lord (Purchase Book - 640 pages)- by Herbert E. Douglas

8. ELLEN WHITE Falsely accused of Plagiarism

9. Did Ellen White Plagiarize?

10. Misrepresenting Ellen White

11. Did Ellen White Plagiarize?

12. Fannie Bolton and Her Allegation - True or False

13. Was Ellen White a Plagiarist?

--------

and more from Bob Pickle's Research:

False Charges:

1. Both Plagiarized

2. Both really were guilty of this crime

3. Walter Rea's The White Lie was dedicated...han a sweet lie

4. Mrs. White's inspiration was borrowed from others without credit

5. Her major books contain "stolen" material

6. Sketches from the Life of Paul was plagiarized in its entirety

7. The Result in a Lawsuit

8. The book was then quickly taken out of print

9. The evidence is irrefutable that she "stole" her inspiration from others

10. The main line of defense in The White Truth was regarding copyright laws back then

11. It says that there were no copyright laws back then, so Mrs. White didn't break the law

12. This sidestepped the issue

13. The Adventist hierarchy has never responded to Rea's challenge

14. "Prove that 20% of Mrs. White's writings are original."

15. Her visions which she claimed came from God were shaky

I would encourage you to do your homework JoeMo. You have a lot of it. I once questioned EGW and plagiarism too, but all those arguments were forced to dissipate like frost before the rising sun!

[ClubV12]

No question JoeMo, some compilations are a bit problematic, but they are few and far between. When in doubt you can take ANY quote in ANY compilation and go back to the original source to better understand the time, place and contex of the quote. Having done so, many times, I can find little or no fault with the EGW Estate in their compilations. In fact, I find they have done an extraordinarily good job in using quotes in the correct context. For the most part, those that have trouble with a compilation run into the same problems when viewing the original source, it cuts to close to home and makes one feel a bit uncomfortable!

I've also studied the plagarism issues, there just isn't anything there that concerns me. It was a different time in her day, the standards were more open than today. What she did was find a quote here or there where an author did an exceptional job of detailing an event or a concept and used it! No apologies for that, in fact, I believe many of the authors of the bible did much the same thing!!! Paul in particular, who had various scribes do some of his writing. I have NO DOUBT they would at times suggest, correct, add or remove as required certain problematic sentences or concepts. ALL with the APPROVAL of PAUL of course, and THAT is the key to understanding how inspiration works. It is not word for word in most cases, in SOME cases that is true and generally noted. Like when the "Angel told me...." quote/unguote. When she says, "I saw..." she employs her own words, OR the words of others who sum it up nicely.

One of my favorite books is about Paul and his journeys, a small book preceeding Acts of the Apostles. THAT book was HEAVILY critized for plagarism. Heres the difference, the original non Adventist author talking about the boat in the storm. SUGGESTS, THEORIZES, IMPLIES what it must have been like in those times, what those sailors faced, how they MIGHT have dealt with it. Ellen Whites version: She borrows much of the original authors words and descriptions with a very important difference. She doesn't "suggest, imply or theorize" what it must have been like, she says it WAS like this or like that. With confidence, boldy proclaiming EXACTLY what happened on the boat because she saw it in vision. And then employed "her own words" to write it out. Today, of course, she would be much more careful to cite the correct referrence when neccessary, as the EGW Estate has tried to do where possible. Different time than then, things change. Don't get hung up on the minor details.

[Dr. Rich]

ClubV12,where do you get your proof that Paul had help with his letters found in the NT? Or is that just another assumption on your part?

Interestingly, we now have NEW investigative tools to use to establish who really wrote what. You might want to research that first before you make any more assumptions.

One of my studies was who really wrote the book of John. Of course it would not make much difference unless the real author was not an eye or earwitness of the ministry of Jesus. RLH (here on this forum) sent me information regarding my research which provided insight and evidence that tended to prove that it was Lazerus and not John who wrote it. If he did write this book, then he did have a reason to not say what John did in the book of Revelation.

As for the book of Hebrews, most believe Paul wrote it, but the style and content does not fit as agreed to my many researching this issue. Not knowing the true identy of the authour makes me a little suspicious of the content. Sure, Hebrews has LOTS of great information and covers sanctification where Paul didn't. But then there are some places that are a little confusing. Adventists take the words of EGW over Hebrews when it comes to where Jesus went after His resurection.

[ClubV12]

Since you reject Paul as a biblical author all together, why would I even bother to engage in dialog with you concerning him?

I won't, your dismissed....

To the rest of those reading this thread:

I am not alone in the idea that Paul did in fact employee various scribes at various times in preparation and writing of his works. Which are surely more exhaustive than those works which appear only in the cannon. As did Ellen White, she employed a number of people to help assemble her vast writings, I don't have a problem with that, it's just common sense. Busy people employee secretaries and assistants. proof readers and editors. Not ALL of them were happy about her using some wordings from other authors. All though that was common in her day, there were some that still frowned on. That is reasonable to a degree, or you might be fired if you can't handle that reality. If you don't like the way the "boss" works, fine, work for somebody else.

One interesting aspect of her work were those who did research into history. She saw in vision, for instance, a "bell" in France, but could not, did not know WHAT bell that was. Given the material facts of the vision, her historians were able to make a reasonable ascertation as to what actual bell the vision was referring to. Not that that was a critical component of anything, but some folks (like me) are interested in some of the details and love history.

On the other hand, her vision concerning planets Captain Bates considered as Jupiter and other planets within our solar system. SHE never identified ANY planet specifically, certainly NOT Jupiter or ANY planet within our solar system. That was simply a "best guess" by others who were entirely wrong! But she didn't argue the point, the specific planet was irrelevant to the dicussion.

We know from the process of Ellen Whites work there were people who corrected grammar, checked spelling, made suggestions, found wording from other authors that were uniquely suited to the occasion on hand. There is reason to believe Paul did the same, and not only Paul, but any given biblical author before him.

Again the KEY element here is that the author, Paul or Sister White or some other biblical author had the final say on what was and wasn't the final edition.

Dr.Rich is a good example of those who can be led astray by dwelling on the minutae of an author, can't see the forest because the trees are in the way!

[ClubV12]

You know, I was just thinking, since Aron was to be a spokesperson for Moses, I wonder how much input, help, advice, editorial review, proof reading he did for his brother?

Moses was VERY well educated, but I get the impression, Aron was no dummy either! :)

[Lysimachus]

Solomon even "plagiarized" Egyptian poets, and never gave them credit! :)

[Lysimachus]

People fail to understand the following principles:

Thoughts of people may be inspired, in spite of the fact that the people writing them may not be inspired.

The authors that Ellen White extracted her statements from were not inspired. But the Holy Spirit told her which thoughts they expressed were thoughts inspired by God, in spite of themselves.

God guided Ellen White in knowing which thoughts expressed by which authors were inspired, and she many times put them together.

Many Bible writers operated on this same principle, by even quoting "inspired thoughts" from the Apocryphal writings, written by uninspired authors. But various "thoughts" were inspired, in spite of the fact that these authors themselves were not always inspired. But the one compiling them and including them may very well be inspired.

[ClubV12]

Solomon!!! Of all people! Who woulda thunk that! :)

[Dr. Rich]

People fail to understand the following principles:

Thoughts of people may be inspired, in spite of the fact that the people writing them may not be inspired.

The authors that Ellen White extracted her statements from were not inspired. But the Holy Spirit told her which thoughts they expressed were thoughts inspired by God, in spite of themselves.

God guided Ellen White in knowing which thoughts expressed by which authors were inspired, and she many times put them together.

Many Bible writers operated on this same principle, by even quoting "inspired thoughts" from the Apocryphal writings, written by uninspired authors. But various "thoughts" were inspired, in spite of the fact that these authors themselves were not always inspired. But the one compiling them and including them may very well be inspired.

Ok, then why are you rejecting my words since I believe they are inspired by the Holy Spirit?

[JoeMo]

Great discussion!

For the record, I spent considerable time on the links that Lysimachus posted concerning EGW's alleged plagiarism; and they failed to sway me one way or the other. Whether people want to call it palgiarism or "borrowing", I have no problem with it; I simply stated that it is an issue. It does not negate the fact than EGW was heavily annointed with the spiritual gifts of prophecy and wisdom as described in 1 Corinthians 12. I will even step out on a limb here, and say that God gave her "the" gift of prophecy rather than "a" gift of prophecy. That being said, she was never assigned the divine "office" of prophet. She herself did not want to be called a prophet - she preferred the title of "messenger" (I believe that's correct). It is the SDA church that elevated her status to that of infallible prophet. Just because she had the gift of prophecy does not mean she had the gift of inteptretation. Daniel and John received incredibly vivid prophecies and visions; but they pretty much had no idea what they meant. Why would EGW be any different?

So what if EGW may have misinterpreted a few things? I infer from scripture that Paul and Peter preached the imminent return of Jesus in their day. (They were also Sabbath-keepers - does that make them "generic" SDAs?) It's possible Abraham thought that his promised son, Issac, would be the Messiah. They were wrong. But like all true believers, they strongly desired the imminent coming of their Savior; and like us, they looked for all possible signs of His coming. I don't uniformly reject the writings of Peter and Paul because they were wrong on one account; nor do I don't reject the writings of EGW. Many non-SDA charismatic scholars also recognize EGW's amazing gifts, even though they lament the fact that (in their opinion) people built a religion around her.

I'm not overly concerned about who wrote Hebrews or John or Revelation. What does concern me is trying to determine which books of the Bible are true; and which ones are not. Conservative SDA's warn us about the dangers of passing judgement on anything EGW wrote. How much more so for scripture!

I also believe that the gift that Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 12 are available to all believers, as God desires to give them. Since they are "gifts" as opposed to "rewards", they are not necessarily deserved or earned. The recipients of these gifts are not necessarily morally pure and totally submitted to God (Look at Jonah - he was a jerk). Some modern-day prophets in today's world may include people like Joseph Prince (author of "Destined to Reign")and Bill Johnson (author of "When Heaven Invades Earth"). Google them and check them out! No, they are not Adventists; nor do they believe the exact things that we may accept as fact. They don't have to. Like I said - prophecy is a "gift" of the Spirit - not a "wage" or "reward" - God can give it to whomever He wants; and whether the recipient deserves it or not.