SDA Groups "pigeon holed"

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

You are mighty for what you believe and for that I commend you. But we must be mighty also to look for and find the truth of things from Him and mistrust the leading men as they may not be of Him. Can they stand investigation?

Please read her words here on this,

"I write thus fully, because I have been shown that ministers and people are tempted more and more to trust in finite man for wisdom, and to make flesh their arm. To conference presidents, and men in responsible places, I bear this message: Break the bands and fetters have been placed upon God's people.

To you the word is spoken, "Break every yoke." Unless you cease the work of making man amenable to man, unless you become humble in heart, and yourselves learn the way of the Lord as little children, the Lord will divorce you from His work. We are to treat one another as brethren, as fellow laborers, as men and women who are, with us, seeking for light and understanding of the way of the Lord, and who are jealous for His glory. {TM 480.3}

God declares, "I will be glorified in My people;" but the self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside, and accepting the devisings of men. If you allow this to continue, your faith will soon become extinct. God is in every place, beholding the conduct of the people who profess to represent the principles of His word. He asks that a change be made. He wants His people to be molded and fashioned, not after man's ideas, but after the similitude of God. I entreat of you to search the Scriptures as you have never yet searched them that you may know the way and will of God. Oh, that every soul might be impressed with this message, and put away the wrong!

There was no change after 1903, 1901 was the last time she was able to get things back on track to any degree.

I want all to know it grieves me to no end that it went this way. Yes all should be and rightfully upset and verbal about it. Wake up, be verbal, turn it around again if you can, enough voices could do it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

And what if these men, these leaders should slip, fall, cause error to come into the Church? Will we then decide we should leave? NEVER!!! We, I, will oppose any attempt to change, alter or minimize the fundamental beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. I will do this with pen and voice, but I will not abandon my post. God IS in control, it WILL appear the Church is about to fall, it will not. Those who can be shaken, whether it be the President of the G.C. or the local street sweeper in your local Church, will be shaken. They WILL leave in due time, THAT is the work of the Angels, not our work to judge what is in the heart.

We DO have an obligation to literally judge actions taken, to renounce and point out open sin within the Church. To oppose openly taught heresy, heresy like calling people out of the Church, Brother Gibs. That is wrong, unless there is a specific cause, as outlined in the Church Manual, we are not to call anyone "out" of the Church.

[Gibs]

Here is a quote in addition to the one I posted above that is revealing on this subject,

"We are not to merge our individuality in any institution in our world. The high-handed power that has been developed, as though positions had made men gods, makes me afraid, and ought to cause fear. It is a curse wherever, and by whomsoever it is exercised. This lording it over God's heritage will create such a disgust of man's jurisdiction that a state of insubordination will result. The people are learning that men in high positions of responsibility cannot be trusted to mould and fashion other men's minds and characters. The result will be a loss of confidence even in the management of faithful men. But the Lord will raise up laborers who realize their own nothingness without special help from God. {1888 1444.1}

Make of it what you will,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

I suppose like faithful Catholics that can never see any error in it will no doubt stay. That is each ones choice.

Pointing out error is not or never was wrong but voices of discent never are wellcome and are derided.

What you need to see is that after 1903 it did not ever turn back around. That was the date they took over king power again and it is continuing to this day.

We once believed EGW says,

"O, my very soul is drawn out in these things! Men who have not learned to submit themselves to the control and discipline of God, are not competent to train the youth, to deal with human minds. It is just as much an impossibility for them to do this work as it would be for them to make a world. That these men should stand in a sacred place, to be as the voice of God to the people, as we once believed the General Conference to be,--that is past. What we want now is a reorganization. We want to begin at the foundation, and to build upon a different principle." {GCB, April 3, 1901 par. 25}

What I'm saying is all should be kicking up a fuss instead of cooing with it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

The General Conference or my local Church, neither has ever made a call to me to violate my conscience. I am in perfect harmony with them, with Seventh-day Adventists on the 28 fundamental beliefs and the fundamental doctrinces the Church holds dear. No Adventist Church has ever issued a directive to it's members to vote or do this or do that in violation of that members conscience.

When you find yourself in a position where you are no longer in harmony with the fundamental doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist Church and you will not entertain any aspect of changing that position, feel free to leave. Freedom of choice is paramount above all.

But when you are gone, I will oppose any attempt by those who would attack and tear down the Church by posting out of context Ellen White quotes, such as the one you just posted Gibs!!!

To wit:

"At one time EGW considered the GC when is session to be as the voice of God but she says that is no longer the case."

That is a misleading statement, as used by YOU, in consideration of your "agenda" it is an outright lie. A part of the delusion you are under. IN CONTEXT, that statement refers to HOW the G.C. session should, is and has been setup. NOT by a few men holding great power and controlling every aspect of the work. The General Conference REMAINS the highest authority on earth today, WHEN IN SESSION AND PROPERLY REPRESENTED. As it is today. By representatives from around the world, a committee, in the SAME WAY the early Church was represented. By men from around the world, with the like of Peter, Paul and other representatives. With NO ONE MAN dictating to others what the doctrine would be, but by that group of men led by the Holy Spirit. And when they were done and the new doctrine was put forth, EVERY Christian Church on earth at that time was expected to abide by it. EVERY Christian was expected to acknowledge and follow it, or leave the Church.

Brother Gibs, nothing has changed. If you knowlingly, openly, with serious thought and consideration, over time reject the counsel of the Brethren as seen in the General Conference IN SESSION and properly represented, you reject the highest authority on earth. At that point, you need remove your membership from the Church. You have charted your own course, followed your on path, God help you, the Church cannot.

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

I am slow at this thing and my computer may not be as fast as yours, you got my post when I saw I needed to edit it and it now reads,

We once believed EGW says,

"O, my very soul is drawn out in these things! Men who have not learned to submit themselves to the control and discipline of God, are not competent to train the youth, to deal with human minds. It is just as much an impossibility for them to do this work as it would be for them to make a world. That these men should stand in a sacred place, to be as the voice of God to the people, as we once believed the General Conference to be,--that is past. What we want now is a reorganization. We want to begin at the foundation, and to build upon a different principle." {GCB, April 3, 1901 par. 25}

on what you had read before I got it completed, check the post again.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

I'm quite familiar with that quote Gib's, it is a favorite of those attempting to discourage and scatter God's remnant Church.

My previous post stands, this quote concerns itself with the reorganization of the G.C. that DID come about and is STILL in place today!

Not one or two men holding great power and dictating every aspect of the work, as was the case when this quote was penned. Instead a division of that responsibility, such as we see today. Divisions, Unions, Conferences. Instead of a few men acting as the G.C., today we have representatives from around the world when in session. The President holds no power over them. The pattern is after the early Church when Peter and Paul called for a general conference session to establish new BINDING doctrine upon the early Christian Church.

[Gibs]

ClubV12.

I must tell you that her position on the GC never changed, she even became more adament after 1903 when they turned it back the way they wanted it again.

These things are in the published writings and can't be removed because they are out there in millions and millions of hands.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Indeed her position never did change! She supported the Seventh-day Adventist Church every day of her life until her death. She constantly urged the members to press together. She loved the Church and was clear in her statements that it would go through to the end.

What you are seeing, incorrectly, in this quote is the early workings of a body of believers trying to figure out how to govern, how to write the Constitution, how to best get the work done. Erring human beings, but thank God, He had a messenger, divinely appointed to help in establishing the Church upon the solid foundation it rests today.

The works of Ellen White cannot be removed anymore than the works of the bible could be removed. In both cases, however, those works can be misinterpreted, twisted and taken out of context to support whatever agenda one might have. There are plenty of "hooks" to hang your doubts on, in the bible and in the SOP.

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

The extra divisions and conferences hasn't changed a thing in that respect, actually some are helping to hold the whole works in error.

You may condone the errors and uphold them and most will or they wouldn't remain kings of it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

Indeed her position never did change! She supported the Seventh-day Adventist Church every day of her life until her death. She constantly urged the members to press together. She loved the Church and was clear in her statements that it would go through to the end.

What you are seeing, incorrectly, in this quote is the early workings of a body of believers trying to figure out how to govern, how to write the Constitution, how to best get the work done. Erring human beings, but thank God, He had a messenger, divinely appointed to help in establishing the Church upon the solid foundation it rests today.

The works of Ellen White cannot be removed anymore than the works of the bible could be removed. In both cases, however, those works can be misinterpreted, twisted and taken out of context to support whatever agenda one might have. There are plenty of "hooks" to hang your doubts on, in the bible and in the SOP.

But Club, after 1903 she positively had no more say or any control over the church and it's leaders. Check out some quotes Sky posted and shows this to be true. In a way I feel she was put out of their way.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Now lets get down to the specifics Gibs and quit holding things in secrect and making indirect allegations and suppositions. I recognize not one bit of this dialog will change YOUR thinking, I enter into for the sake of the readers, that they might make an informed decision.

What exactly, are these "errors" in doctrine and/or policy that the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists hold? What official issue do you have with this Church?

Please, not that dribel about how some Pastor done you wrong or is teaching some error or who kicked your dog or your pickup truck got hit by a train. Enough with the Country Music sad song and woe is me routine.

What doctrines, policies of the Seventh-day Adventist Church are in error, Gibs?

Ellen White NEVER had any direct say over the General Conference her entire career. She did what THEY told her, not vice versa. G.C. said go to Australia, she said, whens the next boat leaving?

Sky is not an Adventist and opposes the Church, I don't really pay much attention to his ramblings....

[Gordon1]

Ellen and James White were never Trinitarians.

Nor were the leading Pioneers.

Rather, they rejected the Trinity of their roots to join the Advent movement.

And she stated repeatedly that "for the last Fifty Years", the Church had been free of doctrinal error - this was in 1904.

If she or James had been involved in error, it would have required public repentance & confession to be right with the Lord. This is Biblical Law.

And a repudiation of past published errors.

Also for Joseph Bates, J.H. Waggoner, J.N. Andrews, Loughborough, U. Smith, A.T. Jones, E.J. Waggoner and more.

All wrote strongly against the Trinity and never recanted this point,

while the prophet pledges that 1844-1904 were fifty years of doctrinal purity.

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

After all this time and you don't know my main thrust!

It is the salvation issue. We must be overcomers. Is that a set doctrine in the church, if it is it has been dropped. Being overcomers is but taught by a very few within and are derided sorely. Being an overcomer is a must by the Bible and the counsel of EGW.

There is many others that I care not to go into as they are so many but the biggie is our salvation. This is one no one better have wrong and lose it because of deception.

He gives us power over our sinning and His strength to do it. I've laid out the way many times here in my own words and in the words of EGW and Paul's from the Bible.

But people want to be saved in their sins and it won't be.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gordon1]

Ernie ClubV12, there is no need to rail against those who hold different views and shrilly proclaim heresy.

You sound like a Dominican priest heating the tongs.

Christ never did so. EGW never railed. Where is your authority to condemn others? The Saviour died for these people you wish to interrogate.

Tell us something good instead. Share your conversion story - maybe that will move hearts & minds.

[Gordon1]

Gibs: "It's the salvation issue. We must be overcomers."

Quite agreed Gibs.

That's the bedrock issue.

[ClubV12]

Gordon when errors and misquotes are often repeated on this forum, at some point they need to be adressed. As I said to Gib's not for his sake, for the sake of the readers that they might have a balanced view on the issues.

Now as it concerns Ellen White and her views of the Holy Spirit a young man who was about to enter the ministry asked her that specific question. What WERE her views on the Holy Spirit, the trinity? She ignored his question, she told him to go home and come into harmony with the brethren on that question. There were many things she refused to comment on at length. The trinity was one of them, the 144,000 another, the daily yet another. She placed harmony and unity with the Brethren above all these things. All the pioneers accepted new light as it came to them and as they proved it's value. She knew, from her own experience, there would be more new light coming as the years rolled by. It would be no different today, she would not have a problem with the current doctrines. James and her would not only be accepted as Seventh-day Adventists today, they would heartily embrace it.

Gibs, your call to be an overcomer is note worthy, I agree. You cannot do that by removing your membership from the Church and fighting against it, in my opinion.

[Woody]

Gibs: "It's the salvation issue. We must be overcomers."

Quite agreed Gibs.

That's the bedrock issue.

How are you doing on that scope?!! Either you are perfect or you have to depend upon the blood of Jesus to save you. Which one is it?

[Dr. Rich]

ClubV12 & JoeMoe,

Anyone who keeps the Sabbath and believes in the second coming, advent is actually a SDA. He just is not a "corporate" SDA but a "generic" one. Since the SDA name is incorporated one needs to know to not say he is an SDA unless he is a member of the corporation. Certainly it would be great if he caught the sanctuary message and knew it to be true.

That was mostly revolted against in 1844 when Christ didn't come and the earth cleansed but was discovered it was the Sanctuary in Heaven to be "cleansed" of the cases gathered there from Adam and Eve to the living. It was received as another false flag. It is still seen by so many that way and so the truth of the matter is not received easily and well.

It made it that only the sincere seeker for truth would see it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

To the first part I would agree but they just don't keep the 4th only, as they profess to keep all of the ten commandments.

It is clear that ClubV12 is a "newbee" and his idea is not the same as most here in southern California. If you travel around the world and visit SDA churches you will be accepted as a brother, but DON'T open your mouth as it just might cause you problems. What ever you do, DO NOT ask questions! Why? Because they will try to pigion hole you as ClubV12 is now trying to do.

[Dr. Rich]

Ernie ClubV12, there is no need to rail against those who hold different views and shrilly proclaim heresy.

You sound like a Dominican priest heating the tongs.

Christ never did so. EGW never railed. Where is your authority to condemn others? The Saviour died for these people you wish to interrogate.

Tell us something good instead. Share your conversion story - maybe that will move hearts & minds.

Great counsel Gordon1! No need to weed the garden as that is God's job.

[ClubV12]

Gordon, consider this quote by Sister White on the Holy Spirit:

"Evil had been accumulating for centuries and could only be restrained and resisted by the mighty power of the Holy Spirit, the THIRD PERSON OF THE GODHEAD, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fullness of divine power."

Letter 8, 1896

As the Church in Washington has done, heresy needs to be exposed. Some call that "weeding the garden", I call it blowing the trumpet, as we are told to do.

[Gordon1]

Praise the Lord Woody, pass the Dandelion Greens.

[Gordon1]

Heaven's vocabulary is defined in the Old Testament, repeated in a second language by New Testament writers.

We are not to plumb the Godhead or any aspect of substantive doctrine by reverse engineering.

When the Bible is our authority, every prophet will be our teacher.

[ClubV12]

Good point Gordon as it concerns the Adventist doctrine about the Trinity. It did originate or come from Ellen White. The Adventist Churches position on this is based solely on scripture.

Like when Ellen White refused to comment on the Holy Spirit to the young man about to enter the Ministry, she likewise had little to say or counsel for the Church on this topic. That was often the case of many points of doctrine since she began her work. It was up to the brethren to search the scriptures diligently for themselves, to counsel with each other, to build slowly and methodically our foundation. Her intervention in that regard is quite limited. Her work was one of counsel and reproof to the Church not doctrine making.

[Gordon1]

Heresy is exposed by the Light of God's Word.

Not by reviving the Inquisition.

Leave that to the Church.