SDA Groups "pigeon holed"

[Woody]

Monty, my comment about the Church "is better off without them" (those who fight against the Church) is a Ellen White quote.

You might want to take that "brain washing" argument up with her....

[Dr. Rich]

Well, some will appear to find fault with His judgment from what Jesus said in Matt. 7:22-23 and 25:11-12. But for the most part, I sit here and shake my head over what Woody and others have written about Gibs' words not agreeing with scripture. Please for goodness sake, SHOW us, just don't say/write it without proof!

[Overaged]

Many want me to preach things their way and can't do it where I don't see it. Should I? Nope!

Live and let live, God is the judge and none will find any fault in His verdict.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

I don't see you as "anti-Adventist" or any such thing. I see you as someone very disappointed in the church, and saddened by some of your personal experience, therein.

As I have been, and at times, still am.

I believe that although we disagree on certain concepts; that God still loves you; and only wants you to be in harmony with Him through all of your disappointments. Yes; I think that some things you say here are not Biblical. But over-riding that is the promise that God will meet you & us where we are at; and lead you into His will. Sometimes, that may happen separate from us, and sometimes, hopefully, with us.

The world will know that we have been with Him; by our love for one another. I know, at times, I just have had no idea how to love "God's people;" they seemed as if in another world, and the sting of their carelessness and poison darts can linger for so long, making it seem impossible to reconcile; but Gibs, make no mistake. God is after you! He wants you! And He wants us to show this "love, one, to another." I think he may have led you to this forum "just for such a time." (Esther 4:14) Gibs; I can see that you want to follow Jesus; even through all your criticisms...I really like that about you and I am glad you have joined this forum!!

[Gibs]

Anyone here know if the SDA church still tells the world the papacy is the beast. I haven't heard that in a message for a long long time. Have they changed their tune on that issue?

CluV12, since you come down hard on any discent of the SDA church you ought to have that answer.

Another question just what depth of apostasy would have to come in for you to change your tune? The caving in on the Holy Sabbath day, would that do it? I would think they would hold to the Sanctuary message as that is deemed to be the other pillar of SDAdventism. That isn't derided as much as the Sabbath but it is a burr for the world to take up.

Doing some wondering.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Overaged]

Anyone here know if the SDA church still tells the world the papacy is the beast. I haven't heard that in a message for a long long time. Have they changed their tune on that issue?

CluV12, since you come down hard on any discent of the SDA church you ought to have that answer.

Another question just what depth of apostasy would have to come in for you to change your tune? The caving in on the Holy Sabbath day, would that do it? I would think they would hold to the Sanctuary message as that is deemed to be the other pillar of SDAdventism. That isn't derided as much as the Sabbath but it is a burr for the world to take up.

Doing some wondering.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Well; you are sure to rattle someone's socks over such statements! GBU anyways; and HAPPY SABBATH!

[ClubV12]

Good questions Brother Gibs!

One of the first things I ever heard about Adventists was that the Papacy is the beast. It is not "preached from the pulpit" much around my local Church for one reason, pretty much everyone in the Church knows that already! For those that don't know that, or are interested in finding out more, there are many opportunities for additional study on the subject. Some studies with others I have done myself as well as others within our very active little church.

What IF the Adventist Church started preaching FROM the PULPIT that we should accept Sunday worship and disregard the Sabbath? Would THAT be "enough" to cause me to leave? NEVER!!! Sister White tells us we WILL hear that being preached from the pulpit, it will not come as a surprise, but as a fulfillment of prophecy. When that happens it will be time to redouble our efforts to support the Church, to stand by her, the shaking will be underway, some have already left, others will follow you in due time. Me? I aint going no where, I will stand by my post and answer the voice of God which is the voice of duty.

[John317]

x 100

[John317]

Anyone here know if the SDA church still tells the world the papacy is the beast.

Doubtless you will find some SDAs and even some SDA pastors doubting the truth of it, but if you read our official doctrines and look at the publications of the church, you will see that, yes, the church still does.

However, as Club said, we know the time is coming when SDAs will hear some SDA pastors encouraging them to keep Sunday. Should we run out of the church at that point? Of course not. That is the time to stand firmly for the truth, not run and jump overboard.

[Gibs]

Overaged,

You needn't worry. I have fully come to repentance and full and total surrender and He dwells in me. I've died of the old man and self for many years now and been born of Him. This has always been my main issue, salvation and all must be overcomers. He says if you love me, prove it, keep my commandments.

He didn't ask none to do anything He hasn't made possible for them to do. He made it so He would be our strength and stay. It is "Christ in you" that we have any hope. No overcomer has not one thing to boast as it is Christ within that is the overcoming power to do His Will. EGW says "Divine Nature". He puts His Spirit in us as the Father's Spirit was in Him and we can walk as He walked.

Really we do have an advantage as the devil and his angels can see that indwelling that man don't see and they are defeated foes, as Christ overcame the devil. We dare not fall back though a moment and they are there and down one will go.

I find I am sent to this forum to awaken some or even one and I have been doing for many years now, but not always on the internet. Probably in the area of 6 yrs., just a rough guess as I didn't make note of when I started. I worked on ATS for some time but don't like it too well anymore as it has gotten too big and if you make a comment in 10 minutes on an active thread your comment can be 10 or 12 back. I've made a comment before and no sooner did it come on than several feel in immediately and mine lost, you might as well say as very few begin to read but a few.

Blessings this Holy Sabbath day to all who keep it, it is a true blessing to do so.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Overaged]

Overaged,

I find I am sent to this forum to awaken some or even one and I have been doing for many years now, but not always on the internet.

Well; as long as you are also open to a little "awakening" from time to time; I am sure that's all God wants from any one of us.

[Guest]

Blessings this Holy Sabbath day to all who keep it, it is a true blessing to do so.

Amen.

And blessings back to you.

[Naomi]

That all who celebrate this Sabbath, and all Sabbath days, enjoy all the special blessings God has provided for us.

[Overaged]

That all who celebrate this Sabbath, and all Sabbath days, enjoy all the special blessings God has provided for us.

X 100

[JoeMo]

Wow! This thread is really active!

I wanted to address a few statements and questions that Club posted previously:

"The wolves and sheep is a fitting example for these various opinions you noted JoeMo. The opinions of some on this thread are from those who have left the Seventh-day Adventist church and are either openly calling others to do the same or subtly making inferrence thats it's OK." -- I'm OK with everyone from the most sincere historical Adventist to the most venomous ex-Adventists being on this forum. I appreciate your input as much as I appreciate others'. That's why it's called a forum - a place where we can exchange ideas. I'm completely comfortable with learning other people's opinions. I know where I stand in my beliefs: but I also know that I am not the storehouse for all correct doctrine. I reserve the right to be wrong; and I reserve the right to change my mind upon sufficiently intelligent and scripturally sound persuasion.

"Sister White tells us there WILL BE false revivals. How will you know if that church, JoeMo, you speak of is genuine or false? It is "seemingly" having a revival, it looks good, it must be tested by the law and testimony. Principles must be applied to determine it's true condition. Not based on feeling or what looks good. The very fact that they and they alone have decided they will leave the Adventist Church is a major red flag. Sister White dealt with many groups like this in her time, nothing new there." -- The people in the church have never left the SDA church. They still have their membership "on the books". The church simply is no longer under the cover of the corporate Seventh-Day Adventist Church. They now have to call themselves a "community church". They still hold to SDA principles and culture; as do those who have joined from other denominations. It's strange - people who have never heard of Adventists seem to just accept Sabbath worship and healthy temperate living because they love the atmosphere and spirituality there. They started an a church plant simply wanting more than they were getting from the mother church. When they got it, it was impossible to go back to the formal "cookie-cutter" worship at your average SDA church. They've been at it for almost 5 years now; and I have yet to see any apostasy from my concept of biblical principle. Five years isn't forever; but if "by their fruits you shall know them" is true, I don't see any more chinks in their armor than I see in a traditional SDA congregation. Sister White is right - there have been, are now, and will be false revivals; but I don't see it in these Kingdom-minded people.

"Those who have once been in the Church, the Adventist Church, and have left and are calling others out are quite simply the wolves Paul spoke of. This is a no-brainer, they are obvious, I'm GLAD there are out of the Church, good riddance! Their disguise is fully exposed." -- That's kind of harsh. The corporate churches of most denominations have both wittingly and unwittingly offended many members who have left out of discouragement or anger. How does the church frequently respond? By being equally as offended and angry rather than trying to woo them back into the fold. Only God knows people's hearts; and no one no one else knows whether they are in or out of God's favor simply because they are no longer members of "the club". I see the sincerity in everyone's hearts here; and I can't help but think that as long as we are all pursuing God, we are all still under His covering.

"If you want to know from where the authority with which they speak comes from, ask them straight up, "Are you a member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church", or not? If they cannot answer with a simple yes or no, you have been warned." -- This is simply my opinion (and you are certainly entitled to differ), but being a member of the SDA church is not the sole prerequisite for salvation. I would prefer asking them if they could back up their reasoning with the Word of God. If they can, to me it is worthy of consideration. Like I said earlier, I am not the sole repository for all truth; and I am open to scripturally sound, well thought-out opinions, even if they differ from my own or from the official stance of the SDA church or any other denominational body. God's Word tells me what to believe, not a man-made denomination.

I pray that I don't sound contentious or offensive here. I just appreciate being able to share ideas openly without fear of retaliation. This forum has inspired me to think about the reasons for my faith more than I have in many years. You folks are quickly becoming my favorite church.

[Overaged]

I pray that I don't sound contentious or offensive here. I just appreciate being able to share ideas openly without fear of retaliation.

[ClubV12]

JoeMo, here's the problem I have with someone who suggests, implies or leads you to believe they are a Seventh-day Adventist when they are not: They are liars.

Having established they are liars, how could you possibly have any confidence in the supposed biblical interpretation, their version, their particular view point on what any given verse means?

It would be no different than anybody making a claim to be someone or represent some group when they are not or don't represent that group. It is identity theft, it is a lie.

So, if someone claims, alludes, infers, suggests they are a Seventh-day Adventist if your not sure, ask them!! Several people on this forum pretend to be Seventh-day Adventists, but they are not members of the Church. They do not speak for or represent the Church, their biblical views may or may not reflect what the Church views are.

...feel free to believe whatever you want, but a wise man will consider the source of his information.

Having said that: Just because your a member of a group, say Seventh-day Adventist in this case, doesn't gaurentee you aren't a wolf!!! Some very real members of the Church are also very real wolves. We must know the truth for ourselves.

[Gordon1]

James & Ellen White would not be accepted as members of the present day SDA Church.

Likewise for every major SDA pioneer writer.

But they were true Seventh-day Adventists.

They were not liars.

[Woody]

I might agree with that Gordon from the perspective that many in the church now are very legalistic. But she might find a home in some of the churches who have resisted the popular conservative ways.

[Gibs]

ClubV12 & JoeMoe,

Anyone who keeps the Sabbath and believes in the second coming, advent is actually a SDA. He just is not a "corporate" SDA but a "generic" one. Since the SDA name is incorporated one needs to know to not say he is an SDA unless he is a member of the corporation. Certainly it would be great if he caught the sanctuary message and knew it to be true.

That was mostly revolted against in 1844 when Christ didn't come and the earth cleansed but was discovered it was the Sanctuary in Heaven to be "cleansed" of the cases gathered there from Adam and Eve to the living. It was received as another false flag. It is still seen by so many that way and so the truth of the matter is not received easily and well.

It made it that only the sincere seeker for truth would see it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

Please read the following and decide for yourself if it contains a lesson for our own time:

From Desire of Ages, p.450. It is about Jesus and the church leaders of His day:

"To avoid useless conflict with the leaders in Jerusalem, He had restricted His labors to Galilee. His apparent neglect of the great religious assemblies and the enmity manifested toward Him by the priests and rabbis, were a cause of perplexity to the people about Him, and even to His own disciples and His kindred. In His teachings He had dwelt upon the blessings of obedience to the law of God and yet He Himself seemed to be indifferent to the service which had been divinely established: His mingling with publicans and others of ill-repute, His disregard of the rabbinical observances, and the freedom with which He set aside the traditional requirements concerning the Sabbath, all seeming to place Him in antagonism to the religious authorities, excited much questioning. His brothers thought it a mistake for Him to alienate the great and learned men of the nation. They felt that these men must be in the right and that Jesus was at fault in placing Himself in antagonism to them."

Was it a mistake for Him to alienate the great and learned men of the nation? It was not. Was Jesus at fault in placing Himself in antagonism to them? He was not. But there were those who thought that He was. And why did they think so?--Oh, just because "they felt that these men were in the right." And why did they feel that these men must be in the right?--Oh, just because these men occupied position and place, they "must be in the right;" and, of course, just because of this, Jesus must be "at fault" in placing Himself in antagonism to them.

But in all this Jesus was not at fault in any sense whatever. He was eternally right all the time; and the real antagonism was not at all on His part.

Therefore disagreement with church leaders, to dissent from "religious authorities," even to occupy an attitude of antagonism to them, is never, in itself, any evidence of error or fault. No man, no association or combination of men, ever has any authority because of any official position or place in the church of Christ, or in any church professing to be the church of Christ. And when any man or set of men ever does have it in any church it is because that church is of men only and not of Christ.

"The princes of the Gentiles (the heathen) exercise dominion over them, and their great ones exercise authority upon them; but it shall not be so among you." Matt.20:25.

It is not so among Christians.

[Gordon1]

So will it always be. The organized church will use kingly power

to persecute the followers of Jehovah, denouncing them as heretics.

"..whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.."

"..because they have not known the Father, nor me.."

John 16:2.3.

[JoeMo]

You all bring up such interesting points. I especially liked the one about a "corporate" SDA and a "generic" SDA; as well as the one comparing Jesus' relationship with the corporate church in His time vs. some people's relationship with the corporate SDA church.

I confess, I have my questions about the historic sanctuary doctrine when I read Hebrews. Without getting into elaborate proof-texting, My read of Hebrews is that Jesus entered the most Holy Place after His ascension; and that He has been the veil ever since.

I also have questions about the historical SDA position on the papacy's role in the end days. While I remain convinced that the papacy will have a pivotal role in the end times, I have a difficult accepting that the only possible end-time scenario will be over the Sabbath. It will be over worship; but probably not exclusively over the Sabbath. Furthermore, my read of historical SDA belief is that the Antichrist, the beast, and the harlot all represent the power of the papacy. When I read Revelation 17, I can't help but wonder how the papacy can kill and devour the papacy.

No one can truly appreciate the heavy annointing that was on Ellen White until they read her writings. However, I hesitate to elevate her writings to the same authority level as scripture. In doing so, I worry about appearing to elevate her status to our own little SDA Pope or Virgin Mary. She may have had a lion's share of the gift of prophecy; but she didn't officially hold the OT office of prophet. In the NT, prophecy is a gift available to all whom God gives it to. EGW was not the last prophet; nor can we say that the SDA church is the sole beneficiary of that gift.

I just think that it is spiritually healthy to remain open to other's ideas. How can we expect others to be open to us unless we are equally open to them? I would still be Catholic today if I wasn't open to someone else's ideas. I'm not saying non-Adventists are all right and the church is all wrong; I am saying that all non-Adventists and disgruntled Adventists are NOT wrong; some of them have some inspired things to say.

[Gibs]

Right on Sky, Jesus Christ ONLY is the HEAD of His Church. His members follow Him and not men. When any man stands up to lead in His place it is time for all to stand up that are of Him, Jesus Christ and for His Truth.

You all know and have read this, please read again,

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come

Truly folks His will know the Truth. Uh Oh, and Historics, "He will show you things to come"!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

Thanks all.

Again, on page 550, I read:

"In the kingdoms of the world, position meant self-aggrandizement. The people were supposed to exist for the benefit of the ruling classes. Influence, wealth, education, were so many means of gaining control of the masses for the use of the leaders. The higher classes were to think, decide, enjoy, and rule; the lower were to obey and serve. RELIGION, LIKE ALL THINGS ELSE, WAS A MATTER OF AUTHORITY. The people were expected to believe and practice as their superiors dictated. The right of man as man, to think and act for himself, was wholly unrecognized...

However, "Christ was establishing a kingdom on different principles. He called men, not to authority, but to service, the strong to bear the infirmities of the weak. Power, position, talent, education, placed their possessor under greater obligation to serve his fellows. To even the lowliest of Christ's disciples it is said, 'All things are for your sakes.'...

"In matters of conscience the soul must be left untrammeled. No one is to control another's mind, to judge for another, or to prescribe his duty. God gives to every soul freedom to think, and to follow his own convictions. 'Every one of us shall give account of himself to God.' No one has a right to merge his own individuality in that of another. In all matters where principle is involved, 'let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.' In Christ's kingdom there is no lordly oppression: no compulsion of manner. The angels of Heaven do not come to earth to rule, and to exact homage, but as messengers of mercy, to co-operate with men in uplifting humanity."

So then, in the church of Christ, which is His body, there is no place for any one to rule another; the only field of activity is loving service to one another; it is the kingdom of grace in which the soul is left untrammeled, that kingdom of God in which no one seeks to control another's mind, to judge for another, or to prescribe his duty; that kingdom in which every soul enjoys his God-given freedom to think and to follow his own convictions: that kingdom of God in which everyone gives account of himself to God, that kingdom where there is no lordly oppression, nor any compulsion of manner.

This Gospel of that Kingdom is to be preached in all the world as a witness to all nations, then the end will come.

This was the new working order as laid by the Lord at the General Conference of 1901. Up until then the order of things that had prevailed had been:

"Men have taken unfair advantage of those whom they supposed to be under their jurisdiction. They were determined to bring the individuals to their terms. They would rule or ruin. There will be no material change until a decided movement is made to bring in a different order of things." T.M.360.

As far as we know, there has been no decided movement to bring in a different order of things ever since. But we know that at the 1903 General Conference, the reformatory steps that had been adopted in 1901 were reversed. God was put aside and the devisings of men were continued. (T.M.481)

sky

[ClubV12]

Just because you were once in the Army doesn't make you an officer. Just because once you were a Seventh-day Adventist doesn't mean you are one now. If you put on the Army Uniform and attempt to get benefits as a result, you are a liar. If you claim to be a Seventh-day Adventist and present doctrine that Church, the Corporation, does not support your a liar.

Gib, Sky, you are NOT Seventh-day Adventists, period. You are committing identity theft and deceiving people into thinking you are. You do not speak for or represent the Seventh-day Adventist Church in any way, fact is, you are an enemy of the Church. Fighting against it, attempting to scatter and dissolve it.

Gordon says,

"James & Ellen White would not be accepted as members of the present day SDA Church."

Theres a common statement we see many times, it's misleading at best, an outright lie at worst.

Of course they would be accepted by ANY modern Seventh-day Adventist Church! The reason is simple, THEY accepted new light as it was presented. They would accept all the light we have today. They left the Churches of their time because those churches did not accept new light, like the Sabbath for instance.