The Little Horn of Dan 8

[Gerr]

I have consulted over a dozen commentaries. They are unanimous in interpreting the little horn of Dan 8 as being Antiochus Epiphanes. SDAs hold a contrary view. Are we alone in this? Are there any post-reformation or current scholars that do not agree with the commonly held interpretation?

[Lysimachus]

My mind is frozen right now, but over the years in my past studying, I read a number of non-SDA expositors that place the Little Horn of Daniel 8 as Rome.

I believe Martin Luther was one, along with some other reformers of his time. I read a number of expositors that placed the Little Horn of Daniel 8 as the Papacy, but that was in my reading of The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers. I would have to do a search on the CD-rom or something to locate those pages, as I'm already almost done with the second book.

[12tribes]

The little horn of Daniel 8 is impossible for it to be Antiochus Epiphanes. The little horn of Daniel 8 is the same as the little horn of Daniel 7. Daniel 8 has Medo-Persia, Greece then the next power that came up was Rome. Read the description of the little horn in Daniel 8

Daniel 8:25

(25) And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

[Gibs]

It is part of future history, it is not a historic event.

The only one who will stand up against the "Prince of Princes" will be Satan. He has magnified himself in his heart greatly. His craft is the wonders of things this world holds of inventions and the so called modern way of life we have that is polluting the earth to the point that few can live here much longer. The whole world is fast becoming a dump because of his "craft".

The heavenly way as it was in Eden will be nothing like our living today. There is a far better way, which was gotten away from after leaving the Garden.

Historic believers, it is wake up time as we are at the finish line, but a few more years for all as we know it here.

Na 1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

I can't see how Antiochus Epiphanes could fit the description of the Little Horn of Dan 8 either. He was not even as great as his father. But what I want to know is: Are there any current or post-reformation scholars who disagree with the current popularly held interpretation?

[Nic Samojluk]

The little horn of Daniel 8 is impossible for it to be Antiochus Epiphanes. The little horn of Daniel 8 is the same as the little horn of Daniel 7. Daniel 8 has Medo-Persia, Greece then the next power that came up was Rome. Read the description of the little horn in Daniel 8

Daniel 8:25

(25) And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Are we to assume that the little horn in Daniel 7 is the same as the other little horn in Daniel 8? Can we live with a double fulfillment of the prediction?

In Matthew 24 we find Jesus talking about two events—the destruction of the city of Jerusalem and about the end of the world--as if it were a single event.

[Gerr]

Are we to assume that the little horn in Daniel 7 is the same as the other little horn in Daniel 8?

I don't believe the little horn of Dan 7 is the same as the little horn in Dan 8. However, there maybe an overlap. As I understand it, the little horn of Dan 7 arises from the terrible and terrifying 4th beast (Rome), and many of the Reformers held this little horn to be the papacy. I believe this is also the officially held SDA position. Again, as I understand it, the little horn of Dan 8 represents Rome in its pagan AND papal phases.

Quote:

Can we live with a double fulfillment of the prediction?

There certainly are prophecies with double applications, but what specifically are you talking about? That the little horn of Dan 8 is BOTH Antiochus AND Rome?

Quote:

In Matthew 24 we find Jesus talking about two events—the destruction of the city of Jerusalem and about the end of the world--as if it were a single event.

A perfunctory reading of Mt 24 may seem that way, but bear in mind that Jesus was answering 2 questions that the disciples asked. 1) When will the destruction of the Temple take place

2) The sign of His coming and the end of the world, Mt 24:4.

[12tribes]

Daniel 8:9-11

(9) And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

(10) And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

(11) Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Notice that verse 10 refers to the little horn as it, while verse 11 refers to the little horn as he, signifying a change

[Gerr]

All the commentaries I read have the little horn coming out of the 4 horns that replaced the large broken horn. Hence the belief that this little horn must be one of the Selucids. I still want to know if there are scholars besides SDAs & reformists who believe otherwise.

[Lysimachus]

All the commentaries I read have the little horn coming out of the 4 horns that replaced the large broken horn. Hence the belief that this little horn must be one of the Selucids. I still want to know if there are scholars besides SDAs & reformists who believe otherwise.

Traditionally, our Adventists pioneers (even modern expositors as Pastor Stephen Bohr) believe that the Little Horn of Daniel 8 grew out of one of the four horns, not the four winds. Modern Adventist theologians seem to find it necessary to propose that the Little Horn came out of one of the four winds, not one of the four horns, because they do this thinking it will help our cause against the critics who say that this is proof that the Little Horn is Antiochus.

But this is unnecessary. I believe the Little Horn came out of one of the four horns, not the four winds.

This is the only part where I disagree with Shea. Always keep that in mind, that sometimes SDA scholars end up thinking there is a problem where there isn't one.

Here's the historic interpretation:

Origin of the Little Horn:

Daniel 8:9 - "And out of ONE OF THEM [the four horns at the four winds] came a LITTLE HORN which grew EXCEEDINGLY GREAT [the ram was great, the goat very great and the little horn exceedingly great. It cannot be Antiochus Epiphanies] toward the SOUTH [Egypt], toward the EAST [GREECE, Asia Minor, Syria], and toward the GLORIOUS LAND [israel]."

Historians agree that Roman religion, (Mithraism) civilization, and culture were borrowed from Asia Minor, and Pergamum was in Asior Minor. Pastor Bohr has several pages dedicated to proving this in his Study Notes for Daniel 8.

Aside from that, D.S. Farris does a good job at explaining how much of Roman culture and philosophy was borrowed from Greece on page 40 in this chapter he wrote:

http://www.hearingthetruth.org/chapter4.pdf

For Pastor Bohr's research, it's not online, but in his Study Notes. It would be way too much typing, as it covers several pages of compacted material.

It is interesting to note that we find the throne of Satan in Pergamos in Revelation 2:12 and 13.

This is where Roman culture and philosophy arose from. It was this horn that Pagan Rome, and especially the Papacy grew out from.

Another factor is this:

In Daniel 8:22, the four horns are represented as "four kingdoms". It makes no sense to suddenly shift gears and say that the Little Horn growing out of one of the four horns is a single king, while the horn it is growing out from is a kingdom. This is inconsistent with hermeneutics.

Some may argue that the Notable Horn was Alexander, and this was a single man, but actually, that Notable Horn represents the Macedonian Empire headed by Alexander, while the goat itself is Grecia.

Antiochus was simply the 8th king in a long dynastical line of Seleucid kings. After he died, the line of kings continued. This would mean that the Little Horn died, while the horn it grew out of continued? That makes no sense. Kingdoms sprout from kingdoms, and every kingdom has a line of kings as its representative, just like Nebuchadnezzar represented the kingdom of Babylon, but "after him" "arose ANOTHER kingDOM" (Daniel 2:38,39).

If we argue that the Little Horn grew out of one of the four winds, and not one of the four horns, we as Adventists, I believe, make things more complicated for us, and this makes other evangelical Christians not want to take us too seriously.

[Lysimachus]

I should add that Antiochus was one of the four horns, but he was not a horn growing out of his own kingdom. He did not grow out as a separate entity from his own kingdom, because he WAS that kingdom. To say he grew out of his own kingdom violates hermeneutical principles. But Antiochus was not the only one that represented one of the four horns. He represented one of the four horns along with the entire Seleucid empire and all its kings.

[Lysimachus]

I found the following also interesting:

Uriah Smith notes:

• Rome was such a separate horn, and, from the stand-point of this prophecy, came out of one of the horns of the goat, thus answering exactly to the prophetic description. In the year 161 B.C., Rome became connected with the Jews by the famous Jewish League, 1 Mac. 8; Josephus' Antiq., b. xii., chap. x., sec. 6; Prideaux, vol. ii., p. 166. Nations are noticed in prophecy when they become connected with God's people. Right here the conquering legions of the Roman power came into the prophet's view. But just seven years before this, B.C. 168, Rome had conquered Macedonia (one of the four horns of the goat), adding it to its empire. And as if coming from that horn, the prophet beholds it from that point pursuing its triumphant career. It is therefore spoken of as coming forth from that horn. {1877 UrS, STTHD 37.2}

• The little horn comes forth from one of the horns of the goat. How, it may be asked, can this be true of Rome? It is unnecessary to remind the reader that earthly governments are not introduced into prophecy till they become in some way connected with the people of God. Rome became connected with the Jews, the people of God at that time, by the famous Jewish League, B.C.161. 1Maccabees8; Josephus's Antiquities, book 12, chap.10, sec.6; Prideaux, Vol.II, p.166. But seven years before this, that is, in B.C.168, Rome had conquered Macedonia, and made that country a part of its empire. Rome is therefore introduced into prophecy just as, from the conquered Macedonian horn of the goat, it is going forth to new conquests in other directions. It therefore appeared to the prophet, or may be properly spoken of in this prophecy, as coming forth from one of the horns of the goat. {1897 UrS, DAR 175.4}

[12tribes]

All the commentaries I read have the little horn coming out of the 4 horns that replaced the large broken horn. Hence the belief that this little horn must be one of the Selucids. I still want to know if there are scholars besides SDAs & reformists who believe otherwise.

Daniel 8:8-9

(8) Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

(9) And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

The little horn comes out of the 4 winds. The last thing mentioned in verse 8 is the 4 winds then the 1st thing verse 9 says is out of one of them meaning the previous thing mentioned which was the 4 winds. So the little horn comes out of the 4 winds

[cheddar]

Quote:

I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man’s heart was given to it. Dan. 7:2-4

So the little horn comes from one of the four beasts? That makes sense.

I like the description of the 1st beast. It fits Satan’s impersonation to a tee. Satan (an angel) is transformed into Jesus (a man).

I don’t see the papacy as the little horn. They are just one cog in the wheel but the whole wheel is Satan. It’s like when we look at the OT sanctuary service, Jesus is the focus of every aspect of the sanctuary. Every ceremony pointed to some work that he would later do. The evil powers described in Dan. and Rev. are the same. They all give different details of Satan’s deception in the last days.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

All the commentaries I read have the little horn coming out of the 4 horns that replaced the large broken horn. Hence the belief that this little horn must be one of the Selucids. I still want to know if there are scholars besides SDAs & reformists who believe otherwise.

Traditionally, our Adventists pioneers (even modern expositors as Pastor Stephen Bohr) believe that the Little Horn of Daniel 8 grew out of one of the four horns, not the four winds. Modern Adventist theologians seem to find it necessary to propose that the Little Horn came out of one of the four winds, not one of the four horns, because they do this thinking it will help our cause against the critics who say that this is proof that the Little Horn is Antiochus.

But this is unnecessary. I believe the Little Horn came out of one of the four horns, not the four winds.

This is the only part where I disagree with Shea. Always keep that in mind, that sometimes SDA scholars end up thinking there is a problem where there isn't one.

Here's the historic interpretation:

Origin of the Little Horn:

Daniel 8:9 - "And out of ONE OF THEM [the four horns at the four winds] came a LITTLE HORN which grew EXCEEDINGLY GREAT [the ram was great, the goat very great and the little horn exceedingly great. It cannot be Antiochus Epiphanies] toward the SOUTH [Egypt], toward the EAST [GREECE, Asia Minor, Syria], and toward the GLORIOUS LAND [israel]."

Historians agree that Roman religion, (Mithraism) civilization, and culture were borrowed from Asia Minor, and Pergamum was in Asior Minor. Pastor Bohr has several pages dedicated to proving this in his Study Notes for Daniel 8.

Aside from that, D.S. Farris does a good job at explaining how much of Roman culture and philosophy was borrowed from Greece on page 40 in this chapter he wrote:

http://www.hearingthetruth.org/chapter4.pdf

For Pastor Bohr's research, it's not online, but in his Study Notes. It would be way too much typing, as it covers several pages of compacted material.

It is interesting to note that we find the throne of Satan in Pergamos in Revelation 2:12 and 13.

This is where Roman culture and philosophy arose from. It was this horn that Pagan Rome, and especially the Papacy grew out from.

Another factor is this:

In Daniel 8:22, the four horns are represented as "four kingdoms". It makes no sense to suddenly shift gears and say that the Little Horn growing out of one of the four horns is a single king, while the horn it is growing out from is a kingdom. This is inconsistent with hermeneutics.

Some may argue that the Notable Horn was Alexander, and this was a single man, but actually, that Notable Horn represents the Macedonian Empire headed by Alexander, while the goat itself is Grecia.

Antiochus was simply the 8th king in a long dynastical line of Seleucid kings. After he died, the line of kings continued. This would mean that the Little Horn died, while the horn it grew out of continued? That makes no sense. Kingdoms sprout from kingdoms, and every kingdom has a line of kings as its representative, just like Nebuchadnezzar represented the kingdom of Babylon, but "after him" "arose ANOTHER kingDOM" (Daniel 2:38,39).

If we argue that the Little Horn grew out of one of the four winds, and not one of the four horns, we as Adventists, I believe, make things more complicated for us, and this makes other evangelical Christians not want to take us too seriously.

[Samie]

One activity attributed to the little horn is the taking away of the 'daily'.

Quote:

Daniel 8:11-12 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

The taking away of the 'daily' is a precursory activity to the setting up of the abomination of desolation:

Quote:

Daniel 11:31 31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

The Lord had indicated that the setting up of the abomination of desolation will usher in the great tribulation:

Quote:

Matthew 24:15-21 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Immediately after the great tribulation (shortened for the sake of the elect) unusual celestial phenomena will occur which will be capped by the 2nd Coming:

Quote:

Matthew 24:29-30 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Therefore a firm belief in the words of the Lord will lead us to the inevitable conclusion that the little horn of Dan 8 is a king yet to reign in the future shortly before the 2nd Coming.

[Gerr]

Hey, guys, you are preaching to the choir. I'm still looking for non-SDA post-reformation scholars who do not hold to the currently held popular view. Is there anyone?

[Lysimachus]

One activity attributed to the little horn is the taking away of the 'daily'.

Quote:

Daniel 8:11-12 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

[Gibs]

No, No.

The daily ministration of Jesus Christ still goes on and is not taken away yet. Ya better be glad it still is being done! It is the ultimate transgression that will cause Christ to stand up and say it is finished. Satan will be the player to do that. It is future history, you historics, please do wake up.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

No, No.

The daily ministration of Jesus Christ still goes on and is not taken away yet. Ya better be glad it still is being done! It is the ultimate transgression that will cause Christ to stand up and say it is finished. Satan will be the player to do that. It is future history, you historics, please do wake up.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

I'm telling you now, the daily ministration of Christ is still going on or it would soon or would all be over, depending on when He stands or stood up and says it is enough.

Believe what you will but we ought to see now.

Many get the wrong meaning from this verse too.

Lu 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

That time is about fulfilled, all is about to close, but there is some future history, historics.

Prophecy is coming to a rapid close now, and people need to see it but will not and argue till blue in the face so I must go on.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

Gibs, where have I said the daily ministration is not still going on?

It has been restored in the mind's of God's people, but it was taken away from the minds of God's people for many centuries during the Dark Ages. While available to all people, the Papacy obscured the "place" of His sanctuary. Christ's ministration is only as good as those who know of it. The ministration was taken away only in the sense of obscuring the knowledge of Christ's High Priestly ministry and intercession from the minds of the people.

[Gibs]

Lys,

I'm glad you see that, sorry I got the wrong impression. I wish most of Adventism could see the close of this reign of sin in not very many more years away and is fast coming to a close.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

ANYONE OUT THERE KNOW OF ANY NON-SDA, POST-REFORMATION SCHOLARS WHO DO NOT GO ALONG WITH THE CURRENTLY-HELD POPULAR VIEW THAT THE LITTLE HORN OF DAN 8 IS ANTIOCHUS EPIPHANES?

[12tribes]

ANYONE OUT THERE KNOW OF ANY NON-SDA, POST-REFORMATION SCHOLARS WHO DO NOT GO ALONG WITH THE CURRENTLY-HELD POPULAR VIEW THAT THE LITTLE HORN OF DAN 8 IS ANTIOCHUS EPIPHANES?

Is it important? It is better to know what the Bible says.