The Little Horn of Dan 8

[Guest DennisKean]

Thanks Gail. I may be enticed to read it. I'll look for it in the ABC, if that is still an SDA bookstore.

Dennis

[Lysimachus]

Keep in mind Dennis that the "conditional" aspect is only within the "typological sphere", but all the prophecies, are, in reality, "unconditional" in nature, and find fuller meaning in their "antitypical sphere"

There are prophecies, for example, which, without question, will not take places as typically described. In Ezekiel 38 and 39, you have Gog and Magog and the battle against Jerusalem.... Persia, Ethiopia, Lybia...are recognized as world-super-powers. You have horses, armor, swords, shields, bows, etc. etc.

This prophecy never did occur as was "typologically" described. But, John the Revelator came along, redefined the typological settings of Ezekiel 38 and 39, and lifted them up to their antityipical realization in Revelation 20. So the prophecies of Ezekiel 38 and 39--while have not yet been fulfilled, and can no longer be fulfilled in their typological, local settings, will be ULTIMATELY fulfilled as redefined by John the Revelator.

The GC will not tell you these things. They simply tell you those prophecies were not fulfilled because the conditions failed. They are looking at it wrong.

Louis F. Were's ideas were not popular with the GC. In fact, that's why they took away his credentials! Finally, his credentials were reinstated AFTER his death! They thought he was teaching errors, and did not want to believe these Old Testament prophecies would fully meet their fulfillment, but on an antitypical, global level. They just didn't understand these sacred principles. Now, however, Louis F. Were's views are gaining much wider acceptance within Adventism, but the principles he provided are still rarely reflected upon in GC materials such as DARCOM or SDABC books.

We have so many examples of how the principle of "conditional types of unconditional antitypes" must be fully realized. Adventists, for example, place the event foretold in Zechariah 14 to the end of the millennium, when Christ comes "with all his saints", with the New Jerusalem upon the Mount of Olives, correct? But there is no way that we can apply some of the verses in this chapter to the end of the millennium, such as this verse: "For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city." (Zechariah 14:2) The portion "gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle"--without question, is going to transpire at the end of the millennium revolving the New Jerusalem. But the part where the women are raped, half of the city shall go forth in captivity, etc.? When in history did "half of Jerusalem" go into captivity? And when this happened were "ALL nations gathered against Jerusalem"?

Now if you could show me from history, DennisKean, how every aspect of this prophecy in Zechariah 14 met a past fulfillment, I would be glad to hear you out. During my 15 years of research, however, I have not found any other way to make these prophecies make sense, but based on the principles I have outlined thus far.

We see how why we need to be very careful when we just blatantly state that these prophecies have met their fulfillment. Many aspects have not, and will be fully realized at the end of the millennium, on an antitypical global setting.

Bob Pickle is another friend of mine who understands this principle. Allow me to outline what he wrote.

Commenting on Types and Antitypes regarding Ezekiel, Bob Pickle insightfully states:

• "How should we view Ezekiel's prophecy? Now for the proposal of a fourth explanation. Ezekiel's yet unfulfilled prophecy is clearly a type of the new earth. Therefore we may say that it is a prophecy about a conditional type of an unconditional antitype. Because of Israel's sins, the type will never take place, though the antitype will definitely come to pass. (Bob Pickle, Does Dispensationalism Allow to Be Fulfilled The Very Prophecies It says Must Be Fulfilled?)

In conjunction with the article cited in the above quote, I also recommend another article by Bob Pickle entitled Ezekiel’s City: Calculating the Circumference of the Earth - Evidence for the divine inspiration of the Scriptures. By comparing Ezekiel's city with Revelation's New Jerusalem, it provides a way to calculate the precise circumference of the earth from the Scriptures. Also, upon close investigation, you will discover that Ezekiel’s prophecy concerning the city he saw was a small scale model of the earth made new, while the Temple was outside of the city a minimum of 5,000 cubits away to the north. Hence, in technical terminology, Ezekiel’s city, temple, and map were types or symbols of the antitypical New Jerusalem, Temple, and New Earth of Revelation. Otherwise, if the prophecy is to be fulfilled as it reads to the literal land of Palestine, the Temple must be rebuilt outside Jerusalem to the north (Ezek. 45:1-6), and Jerusalem would need to be totally rebuilt in the form of a perfect square, with three gates to a side (Ezek 48:31-34). Not to mention the entire reconstruction of the city measurements given by Ezekiel. Can the entire city of present-day Jerusalem be reconstructed to these dimensions within a period of 3 ½ to 7 years? Sound reason and logic demand this an impossibility, if not wild speculation. Dispensationalists truly have a major problem on their hands, and this is without even mentioning the scores of insurmountable difficulties we have not as of yet even begun to scratch the surface of.

Therefore, when we understand Old Testament prophecies with these lenses, we see therefore how many of these prophecies (such as sacrifices, and feast keeping) will no longer be fulfilled in detail to the literal nation of Israel, rather, "antitypically" to the worldwide body of saints. The sacrifices have met their end at Christ's death (antitypically), and feast keeping will be kept literally, in heaven, at the great supper of the Lamb.

The "New Moons" (meaning, monthly) will be celebrated when we convene at the Tree of Life once a month. (See Revelation 22:2 [Antitype] and crossreference with Isaiah 66:23 [Type])

Dispensational-Futurists are notorious for making minced meat out of Adventist prophetic interpretations. They believe all these Old Testament prophecies must yet be fulfilled in the future, because they know we cannot prove they happened in the past. So they are still looking forward to these events to transpire in their descriptive typological settings. With the principles I have laid forth, Dispensationalism is dealt with head on, and utterly refuted. Otherwise, they will continue to have the upper-hand on us.

[Guest DennisKean]

Quote:

So, in what manner of speaking was the “Little horn” of the Papacy after AD 538 little? Did it not have sufficient authority to expect its diktats to obtain in both realms, East and West of the Empire? Not so “little”, eh?

And if the “Little horn” is bruited to represent the Papacy today: remember, its present constituency is 1.2 billion peoples.

So, you claim that all the Catholics are living and working in the Vatican city? Is that it?. Why don't you try these distractions with the Malasians who cannot figure you out in less than 3 seconds because of their distance from the Western world history. Ha haha... Did you fail Geography in school?

The fact remains that the Vatican is the smallest country in the World and it is affecting more influence than the biggest countries of the world.

IT IS STILL SMALL, but its dominion has been taken away FOREVER! Whatever influence it has had is diminishing at a constant rate.

Sayonara!

Dennis

[Gibs]

Well I think you are all overlooking the clue to the whole thing. The whole of the vision of chap 8 of Dan is for the time of the end, quit trying to pull players in that are in the past. The prophecy starts 1844. The time of the end is from 1844 to the consumation.

Da 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Guest DennisKean]

This editor ate my comments from the post randomly!

Dennis

[Guest DennisKean]

Marcos,

You rascal, you are so well informed, I appreciate you so much. You are a man according to my heart. (I'm married and all in case of misunderstandings).

Let me start with this. I understand your concerns and apprehensions about the futurists. They annoy me just as much as they do you. Irrational and manic literalists they wreck the finest prophecies and make them moot and irrelevant with rationalizations.

Now, about Zecheriah, let me say that it is one prophecy rather difficult to position in time. But we need to look at several other prophecies so that we can align it properly. I could take the long route, but I have to get back to work, so I will do this at 240 MPH and ask you not to excoriate me over minutia, please. At this speed I cannot be extra careful and if I go slower I will not be done before midnight.

So, strap on your seat-belt and let's see what 240 MPH feels like. I think that you are the only one I met who can do this without giving up lunch. VROOM! Our goal here is to discuss this hard to understand prophecy of Zecheriah 14... Agreed? (Where is Gabriel when you need him, man?)

Point one, the Ezekiel chapters 38-39 have no fulfillment possible as type! That is clear as a bell, so there is no point in trying to align it with literal and concurrent history of Ezekiel. Gog and Magog PRECEDED Ezekiel by many centuries if not millennia. So, borrowing from so distant a past clearly tells the reader that this is not a local, immediate prophecy for Israel. To convey this with certainty, and leave no doubt, God has entrusted another prophet to supplement details about Gog and Magog to support its application for a distant future fulfillment. And it just so happens that Gog and Magog relate to Zecheriah. This is real allegory and the symbols are obviously used for their attributes. Gog and Magog were the largest tribes in their day by far and 'number' is what is transported with that name, not time or position. So we go on and read some Isaiah and Ezekiel text on Gog and Magog first to line up Zecheriah.

Here it is in Isaiah 24. I think that we agree tha this is our very near future, Marcos.

Quote:

Isa 24:19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.

20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Welcome to future Gog and Magog, Marcos (a millennium later). What's that you said? You disagree? Hold on to your horses, please. This is 240MPH, remember? Give it a chance.

Let's go to Ezekiel and see the connection!

Quote:

Eze 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

The problem of reconciling the Zecheriah 14 prophecy is that Jerusalem is seen as once again under siege and overwhelmed by the enemy! That sounds just plain crazy. I cannot give you an eloquent defense of what I am about to show you, but I will give you enough so you can connect it yourself. Just remember 240MPH... Here is the impossible verse...

Quote:

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

How could this be, Marcos. Again God's people are to be subjugated, enslaved killed raped etc...??? That just can't be! You will understand it later. Please stay with me.

So, God brings Gog and Magog to see His people and how they live peacefully with abundance.

Gog and Magog come and see the peaceful people and an evil thought is born in them. Through out-loud thinking, God conveys what is going on in the mind of Gog and Magog.

Quote:

Eze 38:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:

11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?

Lucifer's last attempt at prolonging his stay will be "Okay, we cannot agree on the morality God wants to subjugate us under. But, God, if we do not bother you and your people, any more, if we promise not to misbehave, what is the point of destroying us?" And this argument is obvious in the beginning of Eze 38. Read it carefully and notice that God forewarns them saying to the Prince of Gog to watch his followers and what they do.

Quote:

Eze 38:7 Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them.

The following events are not recorded by Ezekiel, but Isaiah records what takes place by implication. But it is evident even with Ezekiel that this thought does not remain a thought only. Else, why would God's fury com up to His face. The idea that God wants to say about Gog and Magog is that they cannot change and that is why they must be destroyed. In the last option given them right in the land of the righteous people, they disregard God and all the promises they have committed to and they go on with their rapacity! That is the last point which needs to be made so that God's name can be vindicated, Marcos!

Quote:

Isa 26:10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.

WHAT WAS THAAAT? IN THE LAND OF WHAT??? UPRIGHTNESS? WHAT LAND IS THAT? So in the land of uprightness Gog and Magog will deal UNJUSTLY??? Is just thinking it enough to commit this crime. No, they launch a full assault. And they hurt half of the people according to Zecheriah.

And now you know the whole story, Marcos! Now you can proceed past this Zecheriah prophecy for the first time. Every prophecy God utters is cerebral, full of truth and touched with rationale to answer the hardest of all questions a man may ask God. These prophecies were designed to help us answer those questions which break our hearts because we cannot see the reality beyond. Gog and Magog is an important chapter so that people will never wonder if God was too quick at the draw! Gog and Magog will clear God's name and God is clear about that.

Quote:

Eze 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

Now you have a new chapter (Isaiah 26) to study and see how it fits to Gog and Magog. Which means that chapter 25 must be the millennium.

I am confident that you can understand most of the rest on your own, Marcos. I have enjoyed this insight for decades. If you see something which does not fit, let me know and I will come back at you.

Anyway, we are done with the 240 MPH trip and I must get back to work. I will respond to you tomorrow and remember not to excoriate me over minutia. I promise that errors creep in at this speed! But I will try to correct them as you point them out. B-)

Dennis

[jasd]

QR frame:

>>extreme literalism is analogous to a severe malady of the understanding!<<

Too overarching. Extreme is just that, extreme – indicating extremity/extremities. Some extremities, lteralism for instance, are the only readings that can cohere or function re certain Biblical expositions; whereas, others – such as over-spiritualizing what can only be read as literal is [simple] overreach – and may be likened to psychosis, yes?—spiritualizing and spiritualizing – until prophecy is no longer any earthly good – making Gd out more fickle minded than foreknowing.

The end of a matter is where the extremity of it lies.

>>Prophecies which are conditional are properly called WARNINGS.<<

Do not some conditional prophecies contain promises of blessings?

jasd 12:12 If thou doest good, following after the LORD in all thine ways, then it shall be well with thee – and thine youth shall be as an uprising of dew and the listing of wind in heat.

A positive conditional, yes?—although a [latent] warning may be implicitly construed – it remains that the above is a positive conditional. However, as written, is it promise or prophecy, or do they share synonymy? Let me go further and ask, “Is there natural tension between promise and prophecy?”

>>(Zechariah 14:2) The portion "gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle"--without question, is going to transpire at the end of the millennium revolving the New Jerusalem.<<

I believe that should one review the text – it will be found that it is the “Beloved City” (Rev 20:9) which is surrounded at the end of the Millennium – the New Jerusalem not yet having come down from Gd out of heaven (Rev 21:2). Where the ‘barren earth’ dogmatist errs is in his or her belief that the Millennium is an earthly wasteland empty and barren, upon which there exists no life save Lucifer...; the saints spending the Millennial years in their heavenly mansions – reviewing [legendary] listings of the misdeeds of the truly unfortunate.

That is heartbreakingly sad and disturbing.

>>And when this happened were "ALL nations gathered against Jerusalem"?<<

‘swhy it’s called prophecy – in that the prophecy will be fulfilled; albeit, yet future. Read: literal fulfillment – and don’t get hung up on Old City Jerusalem or searching through ‘historical’ archives – re this prophecy... The diligent student of Writ will recognize the difference between Old City Jerusalem and Prophetic Jerusalem – as do America’s Sephardim Jews.

>>When in history did "half of Jerusalem" go into captivity? And when this happened were "ALL nations gathered against Jerusalem"?<<

“History”!? This is prophecy. Who said it must have already happened? Don’t tell me – the GC? Moreover, why must one be aware only of the one city Jerusalem. Writ informs that there is at least another Jerusalem – the New Jerusalem. That being so, one reads of signifiers which can only lead to anther ‘Biblical’ Jerusalem – Prophetic Jerusalem!

You can, even now, begin to count all the nations of the world who are aligning against USA and Xtianity... The prophecy's fulfillment is occurring before your very eyes, and our citizens are rapidly becoming economic serfs and slaves.

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

So, in what manner of speaking was the “Little horn” of the Papacy after AD 538 little? Did it not have sufficient authority to expect its diktats to obtain in both realms, East and West of the Empire? Not so “little”, eh?

And if the “Little horn” is bruited to represent the Papacy today: remember, its present constituency is 1.2 billion peoples.

>>So, you claim that all the Catholics are living and working in the Vatican city?<<

What’s that have to do with the price of tea in China?

>>Is that it?<<

Are you arguing that I have a very small house and you have a BIG HOUSE – that makes me a little horn and you are a BIG HORN? Awww, c’mon, surely you jest!

The measure of a man/horn/king etc, lies more with his influence than his dwelling. But you knew that, yes?

>>Why don't you try these distractions with the Malasians who cannot figure you out in less than 3 seconds because of their distance from the Western world history.<<

Uhh, say what!? [/scratches head]

>>Ha haha... Did you fail Geography in school?<<

What’s that have to do with the price of tea in China?—or are you arguing the size of countries equals size of horns?

>>The fact remains that the Vatican is the smallest country in the World<<

What’s that have to do with the price of tea in China?

>>and it is affecting more influence than the biggest countries of the world.<<

Didn’t I just make the same argument in the negative?—and you’ve become all out of sorts over the very thing you’ve posted in the immediately above?

>>IT IS STILL SMALL,<<

Okay, small country. Enough for toilette and leisure..., So what’s that have to do with the price of tea in Chian?-unless, you're attempting to make the point the the "Little horn" is correlate to the Papacy because of the relative size of the Vatican City.

Please... that is dialogically unworthy.

>>but its dominion has been taken away FOREVER!<<

Past tense? So, no problema! Wha’s with the fuss<<

>>Whatever influence it has had is diminishing at a constant rate.<<

Inverse proportion and all that, eh? So, “dominion” gone, “influence” going... No Problema! Wha’s with the fuss?

>>Sayonara!<<

St Pogo, yes?

[Lysimachus]

Very interesting Dennis, that will all take me some time to digest, so bear with me bro!

I'm starting to get excited about the feast I'm about to partake of. You just put a lot of new goodies on the menu to taste, try, and devour! XD

[jasd]

>>the vision of chap 8 of Dan is for the time of the end,<<

Indeed, as is the vision of the beasts of chapter 7. The readings of these chapters allow no conflation with ancient history per se - except to establish the Zodiacal configuration of the Capricorn Goat and the Aries Ram - as signifiers for the expositor today.

[Lysimachus]

JASD,

I do believe those prophecies are yet future. You know well I mentioned the end of the millennium. With the New Jerusalem. Literally.

[Guest DennisKean]

What a clear and adroit comment.

Dennis

[Lysimachus]

Dennis! Please address who you are talking to! lol

JASD? Or me?

[jasd]

>>I do believe those prophecies are yet future. You know well I mentioned the end of the millennium. With the New Jerusalem. Literally.<<

Non, non, Lysimachus, the future spoken of by Zechariah is not the denouement of a millennium, but of the ending of this age – preceding the Millennium.

You see the beginnings of this "ending" all about you - and America is the prophetic Jerusalem of Writ. It is not a difficult matter to ascertain from Writ. Example:

Is 60:13 The glory of Lebanaon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and i will make the place of my feet glorious.

These three trees grow together only in the Pacific Northwest of America. Example:

Zech 1:8 I saw by night, and behold a man riding upon a red horse, and he stood among the myrtle trees that [were] in the bottom; and behind him [were there] red horses, speckled, and white.

Coupla things; there are no myrtle trees in the whole of the Levant. Instead, there are in the Levant myrtle bushes with the occasional sapling branch reaching ten feet. No myrtle trees. The greatest density of myrtle trees in the world is in Oregon, USA – with the second largest density being in Tennessee, USA. The myrtle trees practically bookend America as do the Eastern Sea and the Hinder Sea.

Red horses are Roan horses. Preachers err when saying that the man who stood among the myrtle trees had with him red horses, speckled horses, and white horses. He had with him horses that were red/roan, speckled, and white. They were Appaloosa horses – indigenous to the Pacific Northwest of America. Encarta Encyclopedia says of them: origin unknown. Forget Conquistadors. Example:

Is 18:2 ...a nation meted out and trodden down, whose land the rivers have spoiled!

“meted out and trodden down” is surveyed. America is the only land in the world surveyed from its ocean to ocean and from border to border (from the end of the earth, Arctic Circle, to a river as its Southern border, the Rio Grande). The LandSat satellite has photographed earth at night. Google it and note that: one may see the gridwork of America’s surveyed land – where other countries have just a hodge-podge of lights, here and there.

“whose land the rivers have spoiled!” – translates as the land whose rivers have quartered: ipso facto, the Mississippi divides America East and West; the Ohio river complex divides the Eastern – North and South; and the Missouri river complex divides the West – North and South.

Etc. Ad infinitum.

America is the Prophetic Jerusalem of Bible Prophecy. It is the key to practically everything in Writ – from the Dispensation of the COI to the events culminating the end of this age.

Gog/Magog together with all nations will invade America. Armageddon will be fought here in the Mississippi Valley. Take note: there is no geological feature in State of Israel that permits the flow of blood to the horses’ bridle for the distance of 200 miles.

Etc. Ad infinitum. Etc.

[Guest DennisKean]

Oops,

I was talking to JASD... Sorry Marcos!

[Guest DennisKean]

What a clear and adroit comment, Marcos.

Dennis

[Lysimachus]

What a clear and adroit comment, Marcos.

Dennis

::

[cheddar]

What was that! Like ten posts got deleted.

My God! That makes the thread so much better - thanks Tom.

John317 was a much better moderator.

[Tom Wetmore]

Moderator Note:

Unfortunately when an inappropriate post is removed the software takes its direct replies with it.

In this case those posts that got dragged away were mostly continuing the sniping, either in response or piling on, so it appeared that not much of substance was really lost. (And trust me, you really don't want me to weigh and evaluate the "substance" anyway...)

This is just a reminder to everyone to stick to the topic and not to each other.

[Samie]

Quote:

1290 days AFTER the 'daily' has been taken away, the abomination of desolation will be set up:

Quote:

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Here is your refutation custom designed for you Samie.

You need to look at another pertinent verse, which you must consider in your novel theory, my friend.

Quote:

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

If all these prophecies are going to be finished after the 1260 days time period, then you must have misunderstood Daniel 12:11. Why???? Because what would be the point of setting up the Abomination of desolation when all these things are finished??? See???

So, the starting point includes both the removal of the Daily and the setting up of the Abomination of desolation. I mean for the Sanctuary to go on with neither of these two for 1290 years is absurd!

Does that help???

Best regards

Dennis

[Samie]

Samie,

Your participation here appears to be geared at confusing people with lame rationalizations. Beautification of the temple is not the same as the rebuilding??? What??? Hello!

Their temple was in ruins. What beautification are you talking about? You just want to contaminate a clear Biblical evidence. For what purpose? You have no clear goal...

[Lysimachus]

The decree specified in Dan 9:25 is one that calls for rebuilding and restoration of Jerusalem, NOT beautification of the temple in Jerusalem. Ezra talks about beautification of the temple, NOT the rebuilding of Jerusalem which Dan 9:25 specifies.

My goal is to point out the truth as revealed in Scriptures.

[Lysimachus]

It's kind of interesting how the 3 kings of Persia lead up to the commencement of the 70 weeks and deliverance of the Jews, kind of like the 3 Angel's Messages do for the Second Coming when God's people will be delivered from Babylon. :D

[Samie]

Ezra 7...combined with....

"For we were bondmen; yet our God hath not forsaken us in our bondage, but hath extended mercy unto us in the sight of the kings of Persia, to give us a reviving, to set up the house of our God, and to repair the desolations thereof, and to GIVE US A WALL IN JUDAH AND JERUSALEM." (Ezra 9:9).

...completely explodes your entire premise.

Not to mention the following factors:

Ezra is acknowledging that the decree given by Artaxerxes granted them permission to repair the desolations of Jerusalem.

[Lysimachus]

You highlighted the giving of "A WALL IN JUDAH AND JERUSALEM" as your basis "Ezra is acknowledging that the decree given by Artaxerxes granted them permission to repair the desolations of Jerusalem".

Sorry, brother. But the "WALL" in Ezra 9:9 is not the literal wall the Israelites built, like you wanted it to be, because this wall is one which the Lord gave them. It is from the Lord, not from the labor of the Israelites. This wall is given by God, NOT constructed by men. This wall is God's protection for His people from going astray. This is the same wall God told the prophet Hosea about:

Hosea 2:5-7

5 For their mother hath played the harlot: she that conceived them hath done shamefully: for she said, I will go after my lovers, that give me my bread and my water, my wool and my flax, mine oil and my drink.

6 Therefore, behold, I will hedge up thy way with thorns, and make a wall, that she shall not find her paths.

7 And she shall follow after her lovers, but she shall not overtake them; and she shall seek them, but shall not find them: then shall she say, I will go and return to my first husband; for then was it better with me than now.

It looks more like your refutation exploded against your position, brother.

Why did I have a funny feeling you were going to pick on Ezra 9:9 alone, and ignore everything else I said? lol. What else is new with Samie. Hence, you seem to willfully forget or ignore, I did prove that our premise still stands with or without Ezra 9:9.

But you are notorious Samie for shamefully ignoring the fact that every loophole has been plugged, yet, you pretend loopholes exist, and imagine that you actually climb out of them.

Do not ignore what I gave you concerning the evidence of the combined decree of Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes.

But here's the bottom line....you have no choice but to start the 70 weeks in 457 B.C., as Bob Pickle insightfully proved, through astonromomical calculations, that no other date is able "make the numbers work out". So no matter how hard you try to slice it, cut it, or dice it, this states stands without impeachment.

Thus far, the Adventist prophetic dates stand without impeachment. None have been refuted. Even Dispensational theologians are now having to succumb to the Adventist dates, lol. They are finally having to bow into these dates, and give up their spurious 458, 444, and 445 B.C. starting date reckoning. These dates cause three times the amount of problems that seem to be apparent in 457 B.C.

But let's pretend that the argument is dependent on Ezra 9:9 alone.... (remember, this is only ASSUMING--we have already won the argument WITHOUT Ezra 9:9):

Notice:

"but hath extended mercy unto us in the sight of the kings of Persia, to give us a reviving, to set up the house of our God, and to repair the desolations thereof, and to give us a wall in Judah and in Jerusalem." (Ezra 9:9)

The YLT is clearer yet:

"and stretcheth out unto us kindness before the kings of Persia, to give to us a quickening to lift up the house of our God, and to cause its wastes to cease, and to give to us a wall in Judah and in Jerusalem."

The context is clear....God, THROUGH the kings of Persia, is granting them these benefits.

The antecedent to "repair the desolations", and "give us a wall in Judah and in Jerusalem" is...the "Kings of Persia...giving" because God put it in their hearts to do so.

But whichever way you decide to look at it (whether you wish to include Ezra 9:9, or whether you wish to not include it), we're covered. Isaiah confirms the initiation of this degree with Cyrus which gave command to "build the city", and ended with Artaxerxes command to restore it.

I want you to notice all the formulas given here by Bob Pickle:

http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/sir-robert-anderson.htm

http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/harold-hoehner-70-weeks.htm

Let's not keep pushing the envelope brother Samie. Time to finally submit to incontrovertible math. Time to finally accept that you may be wrong for once in your life.

We have been over these subjects too many times before, but you are determined to press through like a bulldozing plow-train to promote your heretical, and perfidious Jesuit teachings that emanate straight from the mouth of the Hermetic Dragon.