The Little Horn of Dan 8

[Guest DennisKean]

I agree with you about the daily. But it was not 1844 that EGW saw the inside of the ark. She saw it on a Jubilee year of 1847. And that year is even more significant than 1844.

Regards,

[Lysimachus]

I agree with you about the daily. But it was not 1844 that EGW saw the inside of the ark. She saw it on a Jubilee year of 1847. And that year is even more significant than 1844.

Regards,

Now you just went off the road, and hit a tree, and are in a serious coma.

Most Adventist off-shoot Adventists have a strong tendency for doing this. No worries, I'm used to it.

• "Therefore the announcement that the temple of God was opened in heaven and the ark of His testament was seen points to the opening of the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary in 1844 as Christ entered there to perform the closing work of the atonement." (The Great Controversy, Chapter 25, page 433)

Elsewhere, Ellen White mentions about how the event in 1844 was JUST as important as the death of Christ on the Cross at Calvary in 31 A.D.

Surely, had 1847 been as important as you say, God would have revealed this to Ellen White well after 1847. From 1847 to 1915, God had every opportunity to show her some significance to this date.

He never did.

[Lysimachus]

Dennis,

Don't get me wrong. I do find much truth in your posts. And I thank you for posting and sharing.

I will add, however, that concerning the "anointing of the most Holy", you do realize that Adventists have traditionally interpreted this to mean the anointing of either Christ at His ascension (coronation), and/or the anointing/dedication of the Most Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary? (completely independent from the Day of Atonement). Study Psalms 133, and you will see the fulfillment of this:

• Psalms

  133:1 A Song of degrees of David. Behold, how good and how pleasant [it is] for brethren to dwell together in unity!

  133:2 [it is] like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;

  133:3 As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.

This was fully realized upon Christ's ascension into heaven at His coronation, and that anointing of the oil (Holy Ghost) flowed down from Christ and His heavenly sanctuary down to Pentecost (mount Zion).

The "anointing of the most Holy" can be see as a combination of anointing/dedicating/activating the heavenly sanctuary along with Christ's anointing as High Priest to begin His priestly function upon His ascension. This all transpired in 31 A.D.

[Guest DennisKean]

Quote:

Don't get me wrong. I do find much truth in your posts. And I thank you for posting and sharing.

I will add, however, that concerning the "anointing of the most Holy", you do realize that Adventists have traditionally interpreted this to mean the anointing of either Christ at His ascension (coronation), and/or the anointing/dedication of the Most Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary? (completely independent from the Day of Atonement). Study Psalms 133, and you will see the fulfillment of this:

Psalms

133:1 A Song of degrees of David. Behold, how good and how pleasant [it is] for brethren to dwell together in unity!

133:2 [it is] like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;

133:3 As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.

This was fully realized upon Christ's ascension into heaven at His coronation, and that anointing of the oil (Holy Ghost) flowed down from Christ and His heavenly sanctuary down to Pentecost (mount Zion).

The "anointing of the most Holy" can be see as a combination of anointing/dedicating/activating the heavenly sanctuary along with Christ's anointing as High Priest to begin His priestly function upon His ascension. This all transpired in 31 A.D.

Lysimachus,

I agree with you and I do not see too much of a difference in our view. The reason that I attribute it to the Israelites to take the action of anointing this new place where their petitions are to be heard is because Daniel renders it that way.

Let's read this instruction or directive given to Daniel:

Quote:

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

What this seems to say is that the Iraelite people were given 70 weeks to do all this so they can recognize their Savior, seal the vision and recognize the new form of worship without a human look alike intercessor.

The idea is close enough. And I'm not going to split hairs on that. My critical point is that the there was no holy place left in Herod's temple once the Savior died. The Shikainah left that place and that place was out of business. The idea that the fall of Jerusalem was the fulfillment of the Savior's mention of the Abominable Desolate replacing the Daily is very difficult to embrace given the facts.

I have written an article on this topic some 10 years ago. " 1844 and the 2300 days"

It moves rather slowly, but it covers many critical points which have not been considered in past studies. I suppose that I should overhaul it soon. But you may find some very unusual solutions in it.

If you read it, please let me know your objections. I love this topic and remain open to ideas. I do not invest much ego into my articles. I find myself in error all the time. But I am flexible. This entire subject of Daniel's prophecies is fascinating to me.

Best regards,

Dennis

[Lysimachus]

Thank you Dennis. I'm already finding your articles fascinating. I will be enjoying some reading quite some time.

In the meantime, here is my page where you are free to read some of my articles as well:

http://www.scribd.com/propheticlandmarks/documents

There are 2 pages there, so you will notice Page 2 at the bottom.

Also, there are a total of about 3 out of the 11 articles I did not write. Those would be "The Un-Manifestation of Antiochus IV Epiphanies in Daniel 11:1-22" by Roy Gane, "The Year-Day Principle" by Pfandl, and the "Year-Day Principle - Part 1-2" by William Shea.

The rest are mine.

Enjoy

Also, enjoy these radio shows while you're at it.

http://www.HearingTheTruth.org -- go to the audio library-- first ones I recommend are "Futurism Part 1 and Futurism Part 2" (second show), and the 5-part "85 Stupid Questions Presented to Sabbatarians"--start with Part 1. Also notice the book: "Prophetic Toolchest for Dismantling the Dispensational Delusion". It is a masterpiece. Not published yet. About 12 chapters, 550 pages.

[cheddar]

Now, about the Abomination of Desolation being placed in the Holy place and removing the Daily, my friends. The Daily represented the activity of the Savior on daily basis. Men pray and the Savior intercedes for them daily.

But the Roman Church figured out the nexus of the Christian faith and positioned itself right where the Daily was supposed to be. They decided to do this as an economic engagement to extort monies from the guilt ridden Christians and the Abominable Desolate was put in the place where the Daily was supposed to be.

And that transpired in the year 538 when the church officially began its religious dictums over the state and its populace. So this did not transpire in 70 AD, but in 538AD.

Thanks for joining the discussion Dennis.

You seem to be saying that the daily was removed by the papacy in 538AD so if we apply the 1290 day prophecy then the abomination would have been set up in 1828AD.

What happened in 1828?

Other variations of this include starting in 508AD so that the ending would be 1798.

Again I have the same question - what kind of abomination happened on either date that would be even close to Jesus’ words in Matt. 24.

Also, I read your article and it was very good. I disagree with your conclusions but it was a good article and very biblical. I never studied Desmond Ford very much and I did not know about his position of a finished cleansing at the end of the 2300 days but I completely agree with it. I feel that the 2300 days and 70 weeks are both literal not day for a year and they both end at the same time with a finished cleansing and the close of probation for spiritual Israel.

[Guest DennisKean]

Cheddar,

Good to meet you, cheddar. You seem to be the sharp version of cheddar. B-)

What I understand is that in 508 the RC set up its operations in gear, but there was red tape before they could begin to act authoritatively. And in 538 they began to rule/take actions. I know that the Sacrament of reconciliation was not in force in 508.

But there is much disagreement about the 1290 years segment. Uriah Smith tried to answer this, but I do not buy everything he says, though I am not dismissing him on that point decisively. He made a good number of mistakes, thought I am impressed with the many many good points he has made. I was nursed on his book and EGW. Though eventually I switched out to independent thought.

But I will gladly entertain your idea. Tell me how you see the 1260 and 1290 time periods. I hold everything I learn as a temporary insight until I get a better one.

Dennis

[Guest DennisKean]

Lysimachus,

I feel like I'm back in school. I just read your article " The Antichrist Beast Power –

Exclusively a Single Man?"

It is interesting how many things we agree on. I too will be reading your articles for a while. Glad I joined this forum. Finally, I find folks who have more than a passing interest in prophecies.

My big pet peeve, Marcos, is that Daniel and Revelation dominate the prophetic scene. The reason for this is that the SDABC has basically dismissed most of the old prophets labeling them as prophecies which have not and which will never be fulfilled.

After nearly 40 years of studying I am ready to strangle the authors who contributed to this belief in the SDABC. Every prophet has his own angle and every one of them enhances and often far outstrips Daniel and the Revelation in detail about the prophetic landscape of this planet. The old prophets agree with Daniel and Revelation in every whit. I hope you and I get a chance to talk about that.

Of course you might feel that way already, but I have studied Daniel and Revelation down to minutia and as most SDAs, years ago I came to a point where there was no longer any resolution left to improve the insights on these two books D&R. Isaiah down to Malachi have so much to say and help us improve the insights of D&R. It is a vast ocean of information with astonishing details.

Anyway, glad I met you, Marcus. It is a pleasure to meet someone who has a passion for these ideas.

[Guest DennisKean]

Quote:

Now you just went off the road, and hit a tree, and are in a serious coma.

Marcos, I think that you hit the tree! I agree that 1844 pointed to the insight of Christ in His Sanctuary, but it was in 1847 that EGW saw this vision about the contents of the ark. And here it is in the Early Writings, Marcos. I hope you are well insured, because this one is going to cost you! B-)

Subsequent Visions

The Lord gave me the following view in 1847, while the

brethren were assembled on the Sabbath, at Topsham, Maine.

p. 32, Para. 1, [EW].

We felt an unusual spirit of prayer. And as we prayed the

Holy Ghost fell upon us. We were very happy. Soon I was

lost to earthly things and was wrapped in a vision of God's

glory. I saw an angel flying swiftly to me. He quickly

carried me from the earth to the Holy City. In the city I

saw a temple, which I entered. I passed through a door

before I came to the first veil. This veil was raised, and

I passed into the holy place. Here I saw the altar of

incense, the candlestick with seven lamps, and the table on

which was the shewbread. After viewing the glory of the

holy, Jesus raised the second veil and I passed into the

holy of holies. p. 32, Para. 2, [EW].

In the holiest I saw an ark; on the top and sides of it

was purest gold. On each end of the ark was a lovely

cherub, with its wings spread out over it. Their faces were

turned toward each other, and they looked downward. Betweenthe angels was a golden censer. Above the ark, where the

angels stood, was an exceeding bright glory, that appeared

like a throne where God dwelt. Jesus stood by the ark, and

as the saints' prayers came up to Him, the incense in the

censer would smoke, and He would offer up their prayers

with the smoke of the incense to His Father. In the ark was

the golden pot of manna, Aaron's rod that budded, and the

tables of stone which folded together like a book. Jesus

opened them, and I saw the ten commandments written on them

with the finger of God. On one table were four, and on the

other six. The four on the first table shone brighter than

the other six. But the fourth, the Sabbath commandment,

shone above them all; for the Sabbath was set apart to be

kept in honor of God's holy name. The holy Sabbath looked

glorious--a halo of glory was all around it. I saw that the

Sabbath commandment was not nailed to the cross. If it was,

the other nine commandments were; and we are at liberty to

break them all, as well as to break the fourth. I saw that

God had not changed the Sabbath, for He never changes. But

the pope had changed it from the seventh to the first day

of the week; for he was to change times and laws. p. 32,

Para. 3, [EW].

And I saw that if God had changed the Sabbath from the

seventh to the first day, He would have changed the writing

of the Sabbath commandment, written on the tables of stone,

which are now in the ark in the most holy place of the

temple in heaven; and it would read thus: The first day is

the Sabbath of the Lord thy God. But I saw that it read the

same as when written on the tables of stone by the finger

of God, and delivered to Moses on Sinai. "But the seventh

day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God." I saw that the

holy Sabbath is, and will be, the separating wall between

the true Israel of God and unbelievers; and that the

Sabbath is the great question to unite the hearts of God's

dear, waiting saints. p. 33, Para. 1, [EW].

I saw that God had children who do not see and keep the

Sabbath. They have not rejected the light upon it. And at

the commencement of the time of trouble, we were filled

with the Holy Ghost as we went forth and proclaimed the

Sabbath more fully.[1] This enraged the churches and

nominal Adventists,* as they could not refute the Sabbath

truth. And at this time God's chosen all saw clearly that

we had the truth, and they came out and endured the

persecution with us. I saw the sword, famine, pestilence,

and great confusion in the land. The wicked thought that wehad brought the judgments upon them, and they rose up and

took counsel to rid the earth of us, thinking that then the

evil would be stayed.[[1]See page 85. * See also appendix.] p. 33,

Para. 2, [EW].

In the time of trouble we all fled from the cities and

villages, but were pursued by the wicked, who entered the

houses of the saints with a sword. They raised the sword to

kill us, but it broke, and fell as powerless as a straw.

Then we all cried day and night for deliverance, and the

cry came up before God. The sun came up, and the moon stood

still. The streams ceased to flow. Dark, heavy clouds came

up and clashed against each other. But there was one clear

place of settled glory, whence came the voice of God like

many waters, which shook the heavens and the earth. The sky

opened and shut and was in commotion. The mountains shook

like a reed in the wind, and cast out ragged rocks all

around. The sea boiled like a pot and cast out stones upon

the land. And as God spoke the day and the hour of Jesus'

coming and delivered the everlasting covenant to His

people, He spoke one sentence, and then paused, while the

words were rolling through the earth. The Israel of God

stood with their eyes fixed upward, listening to the words

as they came from the mouth of Jehovah, and rolled through

the earth like peals of loudest thunder. It was awfully

solemn. And at the end of every sentence the saints

shouted, "Glory! Alleluia!" Their countenances were lighted

up with the glory of God; and they shone with the glory, as

did the face of Moses when he came down from Sinai. The

wicked could not look on them for the glory. And when the

never-ending blessing was pronounced on those who had

honored God in keeping His Sabbath holy, there was a mighty

shout of victory over the beast and over his image. p. 34,

Para. 1, [EW].

Then commenced the jubilee, when the land should rest.

The significance of 1847 is that it was a Jubilee year. God does things on Jubilees. That is what the 10 Jubilees were about in Daniel's prophecy about the 70 weeks. 490 years is 10 Jubilees. That ended in 34 AD. And from 34 AD to 1847 you have 37 Jubilees, Marcos.

So comb your hair and call a tow truck to take care of your crashed car, buddy! I remember this from the days of being in the Army and studying EGW's Early Writings book in 1971.

Dennis

[Guest DennisKean]

Marcos,

I see why you reacted... Apology for my unguarded comment. I said that 1847 is even more important than 1844... Ignore that comment. Prophecies pointed to 1844. Think of that comment as a hyperbole. Ha ha ha... When I read it I saw what got to you... I am deep into counting the Jubilees. Maybe we can get into that some day.

Dennis

[Samie]

Just a reminder, forum mates.

The little horn is a king, and therefore, a man:

Quote:

Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

The taking away of the 'daily' is an act attributed to this little horn king:

Quote:

Daniel 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

The setting up of the abomination of desolation can only occur AFTER the 'daily' has been taken away.

Quote:

Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

1290 days AFTER the 'daily' has been taken away, the abomination of desolation will be set up:

Quote:

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Our Lord had emphatically told His disciples that when the abomination of desolation is set up in the holy place, then people must hastily flee:

Quote:

Matthew 24:15-18 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

They must flee because the great tribulation begins:

Quote:

Matthew 24:21-22 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The days of occurrence of the great tribulation will even be shortened by God or no one will remain alive:

Quote:

NIV Matthew 24:22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

And IMMEDIATELY AFTER the great tribulation, unusual celestial phenomena occurs which will be capped by the 2nd Coming:

Quote:

Matthew 24:29-30 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

A simple belief in the words of our Savior recorded in Matt 24:15-31 quoted above, will therefore bring us to the inevitable conclusion that

1. Since the Lord has not yet come, the celestial phenomena that will usher His coming are yet to occur in the future, shortly before the 2nd Coming.

2. Since the celestial phenomena will occur immediately after the great tribulation, the great tribulation that will usher these celestial phenomena are yet to occur in the future, shortly before the 2nd Coming.

3. Since the great tribulation will be triggered by the setting up of the abomination of desolation, the setting up of the abomination of desolation is yet to occur in the future, shortly before the 2nd Coming.

4. Since the setting up of the abomination of desolation can only transpire after the 'daily' had been taken away, the taking away of the daily is yet to occur in the future, shortly before the 2nd Coming.

5. Since the taking away of the 'daily' is attributed to the little horn, the little horn is a king, a man, who is yet to reign in the future, shortly before the 2nd Coming.

6. Since the little horn king is a man, the 1290 days, that must transpire after he has taken away the 'daily' before the abomination of desolation can be set up, MUST NECESSARILY be literal days because if the 1290 days are 1290 years, then that will be far too long for a human lifespan of around 75 years.

7. Since the time period of 2300 days is directly related with the taking away of the 'daily' just like the 1290 days, this time period MUST NECESSARILY be literal days as well.

Now, anyone may refute the above conclusions using the Bible and the Bible alone as basis for counter-arguments.

In Christ our Saviour,

Samie

[Guest DennisKean]

Quote:

1290 days AFTER the 'daily' has been taken away, the abomination of desolation will be set up:

Quote:

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Here is your refutation custom designed for you Samie.

You need to look at another pertinent verse, which you must consider in your novel theory, my friend.

Quote:

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

If all these prophecies are going to be finished after the 1260 days time period, then you must have misunderstood Daniel 12:11. Why???? Because what would be the point of setting up the Abomination of desolation when all these things are finished??? See???

So, the starting point includes both the removal of the Daily and the setting up of the Abomination of desolation. I mean for the Sanctuary to go on with neither of these two for 1290 years is absurd!

Does that help???

Best regards

Dennis

[Guest DennisKean]

Samie,

Your participation here appears to be geared at confusing people with lame rationalizations. Beautification of the temple is not the same as the rebuilding??? What??? Hello!

Their temple was in ruins. What beautification are you talking about? You just want to contaminate a clear Biblical evidence. For what purpose? You have no clear goal...

[Lysimachus]

Lysimachus,

I feel like I'm back in school. I just read your article " The Antichrist Beast Power –

Exclusively a Single Man?"

It is interesting how many things we agree on. I too will be reading your articles for a while. Glad I joined this forum. Finally, I find folks who have more than a passing interest in prophecies.

My big pet peeve, Marcos, is that Daniel and Revelation dominate the prophetic scene. The reason for this is that the SDABC has basically dismissed most of the old prophets labeling them as prophecies which have not and which will never be fulfilled.

After nearly 40 years of studying I am ready to strangle the authors who contributed to this belief in the SDABC. Every prophet has his own angle and every one of them enhances and often far outstrips Daniel and the Revelation in detail about the prophetic landscape of this planet. The old prophets agree with Daniel and Revelation in every whit. I hope you and I get a chance to talk about that.

Of course you might feel that way already, but I have studied Daniel and Revelation down to minutia and as most SDAs, years ago I came to a point where there was no longer any resolution left to improve the insights on these two books D&R. Isaiah down to Malachi have so much to say and help us improve the insights of D&R. It is a vast ocean of information with astonishing details.

Anyway, glad I met you, Marcus. It is a pleasure to meet someone who has a passion for these ideas.

There is a Divine hermeneutical rule which will resolve the old mysterious Old Testament prophecies, which we seem to think can no longer be fulfilled.

It goes as follows:

Many Old Testament prophecies, as outlined in Ezekiel 36-48 and Zechariah 14, etc, were "conditional types of unconditional antitypes".

Let that expression sink in, and once you do, everything will fall into place.

While the typological aspects of those prophecies may not meet their fulfillments in their "typical, and local" description, they will all meet their fulfillments on an "antitypical, global, world-wide, and spiritual" setting.

John the Revelator came along and "redefined" many of the Old Testament prophetic types, and lifted them up out of their local typological settings, and re-applied them in their Antitypical light.

So none of those prophecies have failed. It's how they are understood to be fulfilled that is the trick.

Kind of like the Lamb slain in the Court Yard--it was a type that pointed to a reality. The expectancy was that the Messiah would be slain in the court, by a priest, and a knife. Yet this is not how it happened. Christ died on a cross by the Romans and the Jews, as a convict, not as a Lamb, and OUTSIDE of the sanctuary-temple.

Yet Christ's death met the perfect fulfillment of the type. Even though the antitype was not even close to how the type described it.

It is important to realize that the New Testament employs itself as the antitype of Old Testament types. This means that the New Testament employs itself as the focal point in fulfillment of Old Testament patterns. Exodus 25:9-40 describes on how the Sanctuary materials were made after a pattern, and the Hebrew for pattern is "tabniyth", and it means a form, plan, figure, image--equivalent to "tupos" in the Greek.

In Hebrews 8:5 the sanctuary was an "example" and "shadow" of heavenly things. In Greek, the word for “example” is "hupadeigma", which means an "example, an imitation, a figure, a copy", and the word for shadow is "skia" means an "image cast by an object and representing the form of that object." These words are very similar to "tupos" and "antitupos".

So in essence, the Mosaic sanctuary was a pattern, a miniature model, a type of heavenly things. With this in mind, it becomes clear that the local and literal settings of the land of Palestine, Jerusalem, the Temple, and the Jews, were a type of the worldwide saints with the Heavenly Jerusalem being the capital of the saints. The saints of the New Covenant make up the spiritual Davidic Sanctuary, and the New Testament Saints come to God through the Priestly Ministry of Christ in the Heavenly Sanctuary--the Antitypical interpretation shows that the literal settings of Ancient Israel served as a Type, or a Pattern, of worldwide Spiritual Israel.

[Lysimachus]

It is a pleasure to meet you too Dennis!!

I'll get back to your PM here shortly.

[Lysimachus]

One of the fallacies, especially within the Dispensational-Futurist world, is that they take many of the Old Testament prophecies and literalize them back to their Old Testament typological settings.

But this defies the sound hermeneutical rules outlined by Louis F. Were, who, proves from scripture, the Bible's own rules.

Within the Dispensational-Futurist world, Types always end up reverting back to Types, Local always ends up reverting back to Local, and Literal always ends up reverting back to Literal.

But the Bible's own rules are thus: "Types always point forward to Antitypes, Local always points forward to Global, and Literal always points forward to Spiritual".

Here are two excellent books I recommend. They will serve greatly in helping us understand how many of the Old Testament prophecies will meet their fulfillments:

The Certainty of the Third Angel's Message ~ Louis F. Were

Bible Principles of Interpretation ~ Louis F. Were

I've read these books, and I can certify that truly, they will blow you away.

They are FAR beyond what DARCOM or SDABC have to offer.

[Guest DennisKean]

Marcos,

As long as you remove that dirty word "Conditional" we are okay. With that word we are talking about major highway head on collision. Okay, my friend. God gives warnings and God gives the word of prophecy. There is a difference. But folks who do not understand God's prophecies, yet want to sound like they are an authority on prophecies, they enjoy rationalizations such as "Conditional prophecies". Those are outrageous blasphemies of God, as far as I am concerned and I'm not targetting you with this.

Quote:

Isa_55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

And this is not the only expression of confidence which God conveys in such uncommon assurance. If God sends a message, both the target and the fulfillment are certain. To move the target by asserting "Conditional" is to imply that God made a mistake. To assert a definite outcome before it come to pass is to be presumptuous.

The problem is that most of the time people have no idea who the target is!

Your skills or reasoning are impressive to me and I am glad to find you, Marcos, but to some degree, we all are subject to the dictums of the church, elite scholars or those whom we respect. It is very hard to clean up the slate and rethink everything we have ever been taught. I will gladly hear you out and rethink my own impressions, but this "Conditional" concept, you will need to rethink, my dear friend, though you seem to be trying to circumvent the failure of that concept with a rationalization of your own. I know where you are going with it, but the problem is that you leave the door open for this nonsense to remain.

Quote:

24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:

I have carefully read and studied all the prophecies mentioned in the SDABC as those which have not and will never be fulfilled. I am happy to tell you this, Marcos. Every singly one of those have either been fulfilled or are in process.

This is a very irritating point to me. Not irritation with you. Irritation with the incompetents who penned this "Conditional" nonsense for the victims to read.

Best regards,

[jasd]

QR frame:

>>The Shikainah left that place and that place was out of business.<<

Umm, did not Jeremiah remove the Ark of the Covenant from the First Temple? Does there exist a text/passage indicating that it was subsequently returned to the Second Temple?

Disabuse me should I err, but I don’t think so. Matter-of-fact, I think it is shown in Writ that it preceded the COI wherever they [were] intended.

However, all is not lost – as the Jews in their Captivity substituted coin for blood sacrifice where there was neither Temple nor blood sacrifice. So, inasmuch as we know that the only piece of furniture within the Holy of Holies was the Ark of the Covenant – one wonders, what consisted the ‘seat’ of the Shekinah within the Holy of Holies of the Second Temple? We acknowledge that either the Shekinah had no resting-place – or there was a substitute... or, the Holy of Holies of the Second Temple had neither Shekinah nor substitute. And if substitute, what?

[jasd]

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>>”On each end of the ark was a lovely cherub, with its wings spread out over it. Their faces were turned toward each other, and they looked downward.”<<

Ezek 41:18 And [it was] made with cherubims and palm trees, so that a palm tree [was] between a cherub and a cherub; and [every] cherub had two faces;

???

Mebbe there’s a Type/Antitype conditionality at work here?

[jasd]

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>>There is a Divine hermeneutical rule which will resolve the old mysterious Old Testament prophecies, which we seem to think can no longer be fulfilled.

It goes as follows:

Many Old Testament prophecies, as outlined in Ezekiel 36-48 and Zechariah 14, etc, were "conditional types of unconditional antitypes".<<

By which rule, what rote,

Whose imagined pattern

Structures the cloistered reign

Of illusions and spectre-stuff. —Goethe

Wherewith are shackles slacked

And whereupon foundations laid --

Within a recess beside a brook?

A landslip of crumbs and feathers?

Or past veils of vesicular windows

To the sanctum of the soul?

In quiet expectation awaiting

Gdspeak and His anointing. [/Anonymous]

Between the conception,

And the creation,

Between the emotion,

And the response,

Falls the Shadow. --T. S. Eliot

[jasd]

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>>If God sends a message, both the target and the fulfillment are certain.<< [ed.jasd]

Aww, so small the conditional "If", yet so portentous, yes!

[Guest DennisKean]

Marcos,

I never heard about Were before. Years ago I gave up on our scholars and the self justifying rationalizations. Though I was an avid reader of their works at one time. Now I have them all on an un-dusted shelf high close to the ceiling. But I did learn a few things from many of them, though the Bible itself is far more engaging to me.

But with considerable cheer, I accept and have used this principle you mentioned, for the last 30 years.

Quote:

But the Bible's own rules are thus: "Types always point forward to Antitypes, Local always points forward to Global, and Literal always points forward to Spiritual".

In fact I am taken aback that this is recognized at all. Maybe I should return to reading more current works or at least talk to Marcos more.

I am not sure about the third part of the above principle you have defined and how it is meant, maybe you can clarify it to me. I will take time to think on that some more.

In the meanwhile, I'll say this. God uses the local environment to portray events from the distant past before creation all the way up to the very distant future of the New Earth. As an example, Abraham's life story is designed as a Mega-Parable and it is a carefully designed discussion/allegory about events which precede the creation of our world up to the creation of our world.

The elements of Abraham's experiences, as recorded in the Bible, are nothing less than allegories given to educate us about the origin of evil from God's perspective. Abraham plays the part of the Father, Ishmael represents Lucifer and Isaac represents the Savior. Isac's sons Jacob and Esau represent, respectively, those who will be saved and those who will ultimately be lost. And there is much more. Yet, contrary to what some may imagine, it does not point a finger at either of the sons as one who will be lost and another saved literally. It is nothing more than an allegory. But you need to see it for yourself, Marcos. I will gladly walk you through it, but you are quite swift to do this on your own. And it is far more enjoyable when you figure it out on your own.

Of course you could call me nuts, but this is one example of many Mega-Parables which are given to broaden our insights in the Bible. Others are David and his sons. David represents the Father, Absalom is Lucifer and Solomon represents the Savior. The two sons of Solomon, Jeroboham and Rehoboam, represent the Lost and the saved respectively and it all is intertwined in their local experiences to develop a grander play on the reality of our world and where we come from.

And there is much more of that, Marcos. If you decide that I am not completely deranged I will gladly expand on this. So, I hope you recognize the astutely well encoded Mega-Parables of the Bible. I have found them as an invaluable guide to stay on course and make sense of the most difficult passages of the Bible.

In sum, I have agreed with you on that principle you outlined for me, and am extremely pleased to find out that others are aware of it, though perhaps in a different environment than I have presented it to you here.

I would appreciate it if you would share your practical perspective of this principal so I can see your insight and conversion of it. (Just checking my understanding and sanity, you know?)

Regards, champ,

Dennis

[Gail]

I had a Louis Were book long ago, and I remember at that time that people said he was way ahead of his time. Now it seems there is a renewed interest in his work in prophecy.

Would like to read some now! I have one book at home already that I bought recently.

[jasd]

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So, in what manner of speaking was the “Little horn” of the Papacy after AD 538 little? Did it not have sufficient authority to expect its diktats to obtain in both realms, East and West of the Empire? Not so “little”, eh?

And if the “Little horn” is bruited to represent the Papacy today: remember, its present constituency is 1.2 billion peoples.

Should its constituency be the combined Protestants and Catholics – its constituency would be 1.7 billion peoples – largest in the world.

Population of Muslims worldwide:1.6 billion

Population of the most populous country in the world – China: 1.34 billion

Population of Europe (from the Urals and Caucasus to Atlantic): 731 million (this would include more countries/horns than lay with the EU-27 countries: 500 million

Population of America: 312 million

Constituency of the Pope: 1.2 billion

Protestants worldwide: approx 500 million

Okay, now, tell me again – how little is the horn of Papal Rome?—how little? Not so little, yes?

More in the line of exceeding GREAT!—however, its beginnings, questionably, were never little...

[Guest DennisKean]

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Kind of like the Lamb slain in the Court Yard--it was a type that pointed to a reality. The expectancy was that the Messiah would be slain in the court, by a priest, and a knife. Yet this is not how it happened. Christ died on a cross by the Romans and the Jews, as a convict, not as a Lamb, and OUTSIDE of the sanctuary-temple.

I get what you are trying to say, Marcos. I may not agree that the mapping of the events and types is wrong or askew. The typology of the Sanctuary is a spiritual one. Every actor in the Sanctuary represents the Savior. So, we cannot misconstrue this as a suicide mission by applying extreme literalism. I mean, the Savior would be killing Himself... get it?

It is clear from the word go that this is symbolic allegory, which is far more abstruse than literal converting to global. Yet every aspect of this type is in place and nothing is lost or askew, as I said earlier.

So, while I do not accept this as a valid rationalization of conditional prophecies, I accept your point that extreme literalism is analogous to a severe malady of the understanding! Ha ha ha...

As I said to you before, "Lose that word CONDITIONAL from your vocabulary when you discuss prophecies and we will be in total agreement!" Prophecies which are conditional are properly called WARNINGS. And that is what Nineveh received from Jonah the regurgitated prophet of God. But he was a prophet. And God uses prophets to warn the people.

In essence, you and I are close enough on these ideas.

Dennis