The Little Horn of Dan 8

[Stan]

and why does the Bible say 12tribes?

[Lysimachus]

ANYONE OUT THERE KNOW OF ANY NON-SDA, POST-REFORMATION SCHOLARS WHO DO NOT GO ALONG WITH THE CURRENTLY-HELD POPULAR VIEW THAT THE LITTLE HORN OF DAN 8 IS ANTIOCHUS EPIPHANES?

[Lysimachus]

Quote:

8. HORN OF DANIEL 8 PAPAL NOT MOHAMMEDAN

Maitland denies that Mohammedanism is intended by the horn of Daniel 8, and concludes that "beyond a shadow of doubt" the "Roman power is the little horn of this vision." 83 {1946 LEF, PFF3 363.4}

[Lysimachus]

Also tons more in Volume 4.

So basically you will find expositors the world over expressing their believes that the Little Horn of Daniel 8 is the Roman power (Papacy) throughout Volumes 2, 3 and 4 of Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers.

It would be rewarding for every Adventist to read these books.

[Gibs]

You all or most all need to read far more carefully. Daniel is told this vision is for the TIME OF THE END. Now we know when the time of the end started, 1844 to the consumation. 1844 isn't the end date of the vision.

Now reckon with your verse about the "little horn". It's a far different player than you are thinking because of the fact the vision is "FOR THE TIME OF THE END"! Tthe vision time begins 1844, not ends at that time.

After the "deadly wound" the papacy has had her day and is no longer a king power, the crowns are now on the horns, remember,

Re 13:1 ¶ And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Do you see who now has the king power, it was Satan's OWO system that the crouwns were on the heads, read,

Re 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

We are now under Satan's NWO system. nwo=new world order, owo=old world order.

Historics, it is wake up time!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

You all or most all need to read far more carefully. Daniel is told this vision is for the TIME OF THE END. Now we know when the time of the end started, 1844 to the consumation. 1844 isn't the end date of the vision.

Now reckon with your verse about the "little horn". It's a far different player than you are thinking because of the fact the vision is "FOR THE TIME OF THE END"! Tthe vision time begins 1844, not ends at that time.

After the "deadly wound" the papacy has had her day and is no longer a king power, the crowns are now on the horns, remember,

Re 13:1 ¶ And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Do you see who now has the king power, it was Satan's OWO system that the crouwns were on the heads, read,

Re 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

We are now under Satan's NWO system. nwo=new world order, owo=old world order.

Historics, it is wake up time!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

The Little Horn stretches all the "time of the end", but a careful word study of Daniel 8 does not allow one to place the Little Horn of Daniel 8 exclusively in the future.

In fact, it's where Paul derived his theology in 2 Thessalonians 2, and Paul places that mystery of lawlessness as already starting in his day.

[Lysimachus]

Gibs,

Gerry also asks some good questions. What early expositors have said matters.

Evangelicals look at Adventists, and they want to know if we take expositors of the past seriously. We do.

We can show modern evangelicals that their forefathers held beliefs very similar to Adventists.

Prophecy is of no private interpretation.

We do not form exclusive conclusions without unanimity of the text in question based on "enough" writers throughout history.

Reading Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers is a must if one wants to understand Church History, and the various prophetic interpetations of Holy Writ. We would do well to not ignore the Godly voices of the past.

Also, a principle of interpretation is that BEFORE we come to a conclusion based on what we read in the Bible, it needs to not only be submitted to other brethren for evaluation, but one must also trace the annals of history to find out if any others thought the same of this power. If we fail to get support on all accounts, and from enough brethren, the interpretation is probably false.

We cannot rely on our own human judgment exclusively.

[Lysimachus]

POST REFORMATION SCHOLARS ON DANIEL 8 AND THE LITTLE HORN:

Quote:

THOMAS HARTWELL HORNE's (1780-1862) Introduction to the Critical Study and Knowledge of the Holy Scriptures (first published in 1818), after "17 years' prayerful, solitary, persistent, and not infrequently midnight labour," went through ten editions in Britain and was reprinted in America in 1827. Home gives the old standard interpretations of Daniel—the four kingdoms, the kingdom of the Messiah, the various lists of the ten horn—kingdoms following Rome; and the pope as the Little Horn of Daniel 7, the Willful King, and the Man of Sin. He diverges on the Little Horn of Daniel 8 as Roman temporal power, taking away the Jewish Temple and polity. By implication, though not by actual statement, he makes the 2300 year-days cover the long desolation of the Jewish Temple after the Roman destruction of the sanctuary. He reckons the 70 weeks from the seventh year of Artaxerxes (the precise date not given) to the cross, in A.D. 33. He looks for the restoration of the Jews and the destruction of Antichrist (the Papacy) at the beginning of the millennium. He has little on the interpretation of Revelation. Papal Rome is the beast and Antichrist, but the book in general applies "to the progressive church of Christ," and the "kingdom" is spiritual, the triumph of true religion (Thomas Hartwell Home, Introduction to . . . the Holy Scriptures, vol. 4, pp. 188-192, 486, 492.) {1954 LEF, PFF4 128.1}

Quote:

"Talib" (William Cuninghame), writing in 1807 and onward, holds that the 1260 years of the papal Little Horn are already expired. These he dates from Justinian to the French Revolution, and then dates the 2300 years from the time of the vision of Daniel. In 1808 he asserts the "exceeding great" horn of Daniel 8 to be Rome, not Mohammedanism, since the Mohammedan power did not take away the "daily sacrifice. "In the January, 1810, issue, Cuninghame gives further reasons why the 1260 years obviously begin with Justinian, in connection with the emperor's recognition of the pope as head of all the holy churches 6 {1954 LEF, PFF4 141.2}

Quote:

Robert Reid (1781-1844), Reformed Presbyterian Pastor:

Daniel 8, Reid holds, "proves to a demonstration, that the last end of the indignation is fast approaching, and so near at hand, that the man of middle age may live to see it; and that before this generation shall pass away, the sanctuary shall be cleansed." (Robert Reid, The Seven Last Plagues; or, The Vials of the Wrath of God, preface, p. 45.) In this prophecy, beginning with Persia, is described he same great spiritual apostasy, Roman and Protestant—the exceeding great horn being identical with the Little Horn of Daniel 7, the power of Daniel 11:31 ff., and both beasts of Revelation 13. Reid then declares his belief that the sanctuary will be cleansed "about the year 1850. (Ibid., pp. xiv, 45-51, 68, 147.) {1954 LEF, PFF4 245.1}

More from WILLIAM CUNINGHAME, Esquire (1776-1849) (Pastor of a Congregational Church and Expositor)

Quote:

Moreover, he (Cunninghame) holds that the little horn of Daniel 8 took away the daily sacrifice. But, he continues, "the daily sacrifice of the Eastern churches was taken away nearly a century before the appearance of Mahomed, and the abomination of desolation placed in them by the acts of the Roman emperors, in establishing the spiritual authority of the papal little horn and the idolatrous veneration of the virgin Mary and the saints." (William Cuninghame, The Scheme of Prophetic Arrangement of the Rev. Edward Irving and Mr. Frere, p. 70. (Title page reproduced on p. 278.)) {1946 LEF, PFF3 377.1}

So there you have it Gerry!

Adventists were not alone.

This helpful?

[Lysimachus]

As far as "current" scholars, I doubt there are any.

Remember, there is so much mega apostasy by now, very very few expositors today hold to the truth.

Remember, there is always somebody that has to discover a new light "first", at some point.

I believe the ideological prophetic principles that made Adventism are a conglomerate and compilation of orthodox reformation theology. It is the compilation of all the solid truths discovered by our reformers of old. It is the very BEST of Protestant Goodness. In a nutshell, Adventism is the embodiment of the historic, rooted, and Biblical principles of Protestantism, and helps to provide the finishing touches for which the reformation failed to complete.

Adventism is not based on any single reformer or expositor, but all the truths scattered all over by different writers, and compiled together. :)

[Gibs]

You people are followers of men, follow the Word, read and understand the truth of it. All of Dan. chapter 8 falls after 1844, it is a vision for the time of the end Daniel is told. Don't that register anything? 1844 wasn't the time of the end but the beginning time of the end. We been in the time of the end now 168 yrs. which with God is a short time, but the consummation is at the doors and how many know it. It is not many years away now. You may just be able to count them on one hands fingers and not many have 6 fingers!

Da 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Da 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation:

for at the time appointed the end shall be.

The word "indignation" used there is a tough one, it is the "last end of God's furious frothing wrath with sin"!

za`am zah'-am

from 2194; strictly froth at the mouth, i.e. (figuratively) fury (especially of God's displeasure with sin):--angry, indignation, rage.

It's wake up time Historic SDA's.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

Gibs,

The purpose of this thread is not to prove from the Bible what the Little Horn of Daniel 8 is. Please respect Gerry's wishes. This thread is about providing outside, post-reformation authors who also believed the Little Horn of Daniel 8 was Rome or the Papacy. This thread is not about debating as to whether it is true or not.

Time to start opening the history books and finding out what other great men have taught.

[phkrause]

Gibs,

The purpose of this thread is not to prove from the Bible what the Little Horn of Daniel 8 is. Please respect Gerry's wishes. This thread is about providing outside, post-reformation authors who also believed the Little Horn of Daniel 8 was Rome or the Papacy. This thread is not about debating as to whether it is true or not.

Time to start opening the history books and finding out what other great men have taught.

Excellent point Lysimachus. Some are just blinded by there personal agenda's. This is not saying that Gibs has an agenda, but some times it does seem that way. Sorry Gibs but this is my opinion, not a judgement.

[Lysimachus]

You people are followers of men, follow the Word, read and understand the truth of it. All of Dan. chapter 8 falls after 1844, it is a vision for the time of the end Daniel is told. Don't that register anything? 1844 wasn't the time of the end but the beginning time of the end. We been in the time of the end now 168 yrs. which with God is a short time, but the consummation is at the doors and how many know it. It is not many years away now. You may just be able to count them on one hands fingers and not many have 6 fingers!

Da 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

Da 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation:

for at the time appointed the end shall be.

The word "indignation" used there is a tough one, it is the "last end of God's furious frothing wrath with sin"!

za`am zah'-am

from 2194; strictly froth at the mouth, i.e. (figuratively) fury (especially of God's displeasure with sin):--angry, indignation, rage.

It's wake up time Historic SDA's.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

The "vision" in Daniel 8:17 is "chazon". Notice that the "chazon" already began with the Ram (Persia). Are you suggesting that Persia is still yet future?

Of course not.

The NIV renders it thus:

Daniel 8:

17 As he came near the place where I was standing, I was terrified and fell prostrate. “Son of man,” he said to me, “understand that the vision concerns the time of the end.”

19 He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end.

The texts are not actually saying that the "chazon" takes place in the time of the end, rather, the great apocalyptic issues which begin STRETCH to the time of the end, because the things that happen in the time of the end are the "acme" reaching point. It's not saying that all those events transpire in the very end, rather, the events that transpire reach to the time of judgment that commences in 1844.

It makes no sense to say that the 2300 days stretch from 457 B.C. to 1844, then suddenly say that the Little Horn is only in the future. That is inconsistent, because the "mareh" of the 2300 days is PART of the "chazon". It does not say that the Little Horn appears only on the scene after the 2300 days. The Little Horn's trampling has everything to do with trampling God's people during the 2300 year time frame.

[Gibs]

Lys,

The players are all after 1844, Dan didn't have our exact names down here, but it isn't hard to figure who the player is. The time of the end began at 1844 so get em in the time frame after that. Surely you can see that.

The problem is none want to think for themselves and take anothers word for it you happen to hold in esteem. Hold the Word in esteem, forget the men.

It's plain and simple, the vision is for the time of the end and what date have you figured it to be? Come on now, the date 1844 begins the time of the end, period.

End of Ball Game. I will come back no more. A Go, Go as you like.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[cheddar]

Good point. Like others of the opposing viewpoint don’t have an agenda.

Historicism is the biggest agenda I’ve ever seen and so unbiblical. They have so many versions of the daily being removed and abomination of desolation. Talk about confusion and they want to pass that nonsense off as truth – please!

It’s obvious that the vision is for the time of the end because the daily has not been taken away yet. Only Satan’s impersonation of Christ could cause the daily to be taken away. Why would anyone pray to Jesus in heaven and follow him by faith into the sanctuary when he’s here on earth performing signs and wonders and calling fire down out of heaven.

God gave the vision of Satan’s impersonation to Ellen White but historicists refuse to see it. They want to make the pope into something bigger than ‘the father of lies’.

[Lysimachus]

Lys,

The players are all after 1844, Dan didn't have our exact names down here, but it isn't hard to figure who the player is. The time of the end began at 1844 so get em in the time frame after that. Surely you can see that.

The problem is none want to think for themselves and take anothers word for it you happen to hold in esteem. Hold the Word in esteem, forget the men.

It's plain and simple, the vision is for the time of the end and what date have you figured it to be? Come on now, the date 1844 begins the time of the end, period.

End of Ball Game. I will come back no more. A Go, Go as you like.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

You've got the actions of the Little Horn being manifested in Daniel 8:9-13, before the 2300 years are even mentioned, yet you place the actions of this Little Horn AFTER the 2300 years are ended?

I'm reading the passage for myself, and the context is very clear. Anyone who has no predilections whatsoever can see it. The language is as plain as day. The Little Horn exercises itself during the 2300 years as well as after at the very end.

To place the Little Horn of Daniel 8 exclusively in the future is to deny the horizontal attacks of the Roman Empire toward the South, toward the East, and toward the Pleasant Land in verse 9.

The vertical attack against heaven matches the Papacy during the Dark Ages with 100% precision, as it usurped the High Priestly ministry of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary by instituting an earthly mediatorial system to obscure and "block" the knowledge of Christ's heavenly ministration from the minds of the people.

[phkrause]

Good point. Like others of the opposing viewpoint don’t have an agenda.

Historicism is the biggest agenda I’ve ever seen and so unbiblical. They have so many versions of the daily being removed and abomination of desolation. Talk about confusion and they want to pass that nonsense off as truth – please!

It’s obvious that the vision is for the time of the end because the daily has not been taken away yet. Only Satan’s impersonation of Christ could cause the daily to be taken away. Why would anyone pray to Jesus in heaven and follow him by faith into the sanctuary when he’s here on earth performing signs and wonders and calling fire down out of heaven.

God gave the vision of Satan’s impersonation to Ellen White but historicists refuse to see it. They want to make the pope into something bigger than ‘the father of lies’.

So tell me what is the Daily in your opinion? Is it not the sacrificial system the Jews had? Which was fulfilled when Jesus died? Or are you actually saying that the Jews are still sacrificing? Well I can personally tell you they are not! The reason for that is, that they don't have the temple anymore. Without the temple, a minor detail in your book it seems, in Jerusalem there is no "daily" anymore. They are waiting for the temple to be rebuilt. Do you think that will happen? I don't! So when the Romans destroyed the temple in AD 70 the Jews stopped sacrificing. Which really has no bearing on anything anyway. The Daily was finished when Jesus died on the cross. The Jewish sacrificial system pointed to Jesus being the Lamb. So in my reading of the Daily it was finished at the crucifiction of Jesus. Or do you have another plain an simple alternative?

[BobRyan]

The little horn of Daniel 8 is the same as the little horn of Daniel 7.

The problem in Daniel 8 is the same as the problem in Daniel 7.

The solution in Daniel 8 is the same as the solution in Daniel 7.

The only difference is that Daniel 8 is "a drill down" that focuses in on that solution in terms of the timeline, and focuses more on the details of the problem when it comes to the agenda of the Little horn.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gibs]

No way, The little horn in Dan 8: can't happen untill after the time of the end starts, don't we all know, 1844?

Da 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

That is the whole of the chapter 8: vision, there is no doubt about it. The time of the end begins 1844 so the little horn here in chap. 8: is still to come.

Sure I know who it is, you all should too. Who else after reading this do you dream it could be?

Da 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

"stars" are angels.

Da 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Yes he will come personating Jesus Christ!

Da 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

The ultimate transgression, read,

Mr 13:14 ¶ But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

I submit, that will be when Christ stands up, it is enough!

That's different is it not? I know most will rail back and not consider the truth of what is stated but that is your own loss.

I move on.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[12tribes]

and why does the Bible say 12tribes?

I have already shown some Bible But, I will post again.

Daniel 8:9-11

(9) And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

(10) And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

(11) Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Notice that verse 10 refers to the little horn as it, while verse 11 refers to the little horn as he, signifying a change

Daniel 8:8-9

(8) Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

(9) And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

The little horn comes out of the 4 winds. The last thing mentioned in verse 8 is the 4 winds then the 1st thing verse 9 says is out of one of them meaning the previous thing mentioned which was the 4 winds. So the little horn comes out of the 4 winds

[Gerr]

thanks!

[Gerr]

The problem is none want to think for themselves and take anothers word for it you happen to hold in esteem. Hold the Word in esteem, forget the men.

Look, Gibs, that's an insult whether you meant it or not. It's not that I don't think for myself. I am just curious if there are opposing views out there that agree with us.

[Gerr]

The little horn of Daniel 8 is the same as the little horn of Daniel 7.

Bob

Not quite!!!

[Gibs]

Gerry,

Many do not and will not think things out for themselves. And for sure the little horn of Dan 8: is not the same player as of chap 7:.

The text of the verses tell one who it is, it can be but one, it is so plain.

There is but one "player" that can meet the following criteria. He is the one to magnify himself to "the prince of the host", comes personating Christ, very near future now!

Da 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Da 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

Da 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Da 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Samie]

...

508 was a precursor to 538. 538 is when The Great Tribulation kicked in, and 1798 the second tribulation ended.