God Reveals Mysteries in the Sanctuary Schedule In Type and Anti-Type

[Lysimachus]

I sure was hoping that this thread would finally bring closure to you Gibs, and that you would finally change your mind. It looks like no matter what is said, no matter how incontrovertible the math, you are determined to cling to your private interpretation concerning the calendar dates, and not accept inspiration.

It is truly sad that you are so stubborn about this Gibs. It's like nothing will move you. It is so sad that we have to be wasting our precious time with you on this.

What's amazing, however, is that even if you go by Spring and not Fall, as Johnnboy unequivocally demonstrated, it still lands in 34 A.D.

So whether you pick Fall or Spring, the 70 weeks it ends in 34 A.D. either way. (even though the Bible, math, and history show, that it is not Spring to Spring).

[Gibs]

Lys,

First authority is the Word of God, that is the solid ground to stand on as no man is perfect and we were given HIS WORD to be our guide.

If men would have been faithful to it and not wresting it EGW wouldn't have been needed.

Yes I've even heard the Jews even changed the month of Nisan to the fall but they have a problem as it then can't be "Abib", it isn't the month of the barely turning abib then.

Fault me for following the Bible but I am unmoved.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

Lys,

First authority is the Word of God, that is the solid ground to stand on as no man is perfect and we were given HIS WORD to be our guide.

If men would have been faithful to it and not wresting it EGW wouldn't have been needed.

Yes I've even heard the Jews even changed the month of Nisan to the fall but they have a problem as it then can't be "Abib", it isn't the month of the barely turning abib then.

Fault me for following the Bible but I am unmoved.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

First authority is the Word of God, but the Spirit of Prophecy never, and I mean never contradicts God's word.

You claim to be unmoved because you rely on the Bible, but as we have shown, that's not the issue at all. It's your interpretation of the Bible. It's your interpretation of the time tables mentioned in the Bible.

Pickle is relying just as much on the Bible, but he is rightly grappling with the mathematics. You don't ignore math when interpreting the Bible. If your interpretation of the Bible contradicts the math, it's not the Bible's fault, but your interpretation of those passages in question. Please get this.

The Bible must be in harmony with the math, and the math must be in harmony with the Bible.

[Gibs]

Lys,

You may have it as you see it but because I don't see your view doesn't mean it is I who don't have it right.

I leave you with it as I can see more dialogue will not do any change or understanding.

I hope we can agree on the Salvation issue as that is the all important one.

Bro. Gibs.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Pickle]

Well since God don't change the thing gone out from His mouth I will stick to the spring equinox as the beginning of the year. Yes the Jews changed it but God didn't, the spring equinox still comes around once a year on time and don't happen in the fall.

Originally that was the first month Nisan, Abib of the year and still is, man can't change it and God isn't going to.

Gibs,

What you wrote above is confusing, and it is difficult to understand what you are really trying to say.

Since Abib/Nisan is always called the 1st month, even in a fall-to-fall calendar when Tishri is the 1st month of the civil or regnal or agricultural year, what you write above appears to be true, except that the Jews didn't change anything since they still called Nisan the 1st month.

However, it's possible to interpret your words as claiming that Nehemiah wrongly changed the calendar when he had Kislev come before Nisan. Therefore I must ask, are you rejecting the book of Nehemiah as being inspired Scripture?

[Pickle]

First authority is the Word of God, that is the solid ground to stand on as no man is perfect and we were given HIS WORD to be our guide.

[Gibs]

Pickle I just recently read of that and don't know from who or what source as I wasn't interrested at the time, Nisan in the fall.

I knew Nisan was spring, first month so didn't pay no attention.

But no, the Sabbatical Land sabbaths are by the Jubilee calendar and dare not to ever lose out on the 7x7x7x7x7 for eternity. The first seventh yr of Adam on earth was a land sabbatical and every seventh since has been. The solar day calendar was before earth and so was the Jubilee calendar and earth was put in sync with the Heavenly long instituted time clocks. Also those two aren't the only ones the Eternal One has.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Guest DennisKean]

Johnnboy,

Please help me to understand how you see the verse:

Quote:

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

I would think that the year 457 BC would be counted from October or even November onward, and you seem to agree close enough, but this comment seems a little askew to me:

Quote:

So autumn 457 B.C.E. when the decree of Artaxerxes went “forth” would have been in the middle of the first year in the second week of years, near the end of the ceremonial cycle of the sacred year, but the year would have ended in the spring of 458 B.C.E.

I consider the passover to sit in the MIDST OF THE WEEK there. But perhaps that some years are counted beginning with the Passover. In fact the original Passover in Egypt starts the year with the beginning of months. That would be the time of the Exodus... Right?

So, that's fine with me... Anyway, it would appear that clarity is not in its 100% state here.

Maybe you can add something for more clarify. If not I guess that October through April are the months of hibernation, when people are aware of nothing??!!!!

But I can see how Spring, Summer and Fall can be used in prophetic allegory to designate a process from inception to completion. So that might be the idea here.

But I tend to think that beyond the Atonement day there was the Feast of Tabernacles, which implied the Saved people going out and camping elsewhere than their homes. And that stretches into November...

Dennis

[jasd]

Quote:

"The commandment to restore and build Jerusalem, as completed by the decree of Artaxerxes Longimanus (see Ezra 6:14; 7:1, 9, margin), went into effect in the autumn of B. C. 457. From this time four hundred and eighty-three years extend to the autumn of A. D. 27." (DA, 233)

"The commandment to restore and build Jerusalem, as completed by the decree of Artaxerxes Longimanus, went into effect in the autumn of 457 B.C. See Ezra 6:14; 7:1, 9. From this time four hundred and eighty-three years extend to the autumn of A.D. 27." (PK, 698)

"The 2300 days had been found to begin when the commandment of Artaxerxes for the restoration and building of Jerusalem went into effect, in the autumn of 457 B.C." (FLB, 208)

"That which led to this movement was the discovery that the decree of Artaxerxes for the restoration of Jerusalem, which formed the starting point for the period of the 2300 days, went into effect in the autumn of the year 457 B.C., and not at the beginning of the year, as had been formerly believed. Reckoning from the autumn of 457, the 2300 years terminate in the autumn of 1844." (GC, 398)

>>Do we have to learn, yet another painful lesson, that in the end, the prophet of the Lord is going to be found to be right?<<

Read and reread the given texts "(see Ezra 6:14; 7:1, 9)" in the quotes above -- and find it impossible to find any reference to "The commandment to restore and build Jerusalem". Wh'sup? Miscue? Wishful or mangled exposition? Dare I say, "ERROR"?

Incidentally, neither could I find any reference to other than the Temple/House of Gd in ANY of the three 'Decrees' being so assertively proffered...

>>I have an idea. Let's save ourselves the embarrassment, and start to admit, that although we may not be experts on the math, and that there may be some things we don't fully understand, that if we keep digging, once again, she's probably going to be proven to be right in the end.<<

Don't know from "embarrassment" or "right" -- but do know that she wrote a "####acious" amount of tracts, articles, books, etc. Hopefully, she received monie$ for them.

>>First authority is the Word of God, but the Spirit of Prophecy never, and I mean never contradicts God's word.<< [ed.jasd]

She did in the pull quotes above. BIG TIME contradiction -- unless the 'restoration and building of Jerusalem proper' aspects of the King Longimanus' decree (above) -- were in lacunae that the hoi polloi somehow missed.

Guard the skirts of your credibility.

[jasd]

QR frame:

Disabuse me wherein I err, but I seem to find that Biblically, the Shemitah begins with the first monthe Abib/Nisan -- and that the Tishri beginning for the Shemitah has its origins in the Babylonian Talmud.

Having read portions of the Talmud, I admit to finding such discombobulation that I come away form it Blep-Blep-Blepping. Moreover, did not the Autumnal reckoning of the year begin in Babylon and made its way to Judea in the Return?

Lastly, did not the COI enter into the land of Canaan on the 10th of Abib/Nisan? Should the Shemitah have begun in the Autumnal Tishri -- the Shemitah would have had to have defaulted (lost) half a year in the count.

[Guest DennisKean]

I know what you mean...

It is hard to talk with others. And it is much easier to talk at them.

Dennis

[phkrause]

Pickle I just recently read of that and don't know from who or what source as I wasn't interrested at the time, Nisan in the fall.

I knew Nisan was spring, first month so didn't pay no attention.

But no, the Sabbatical Land sabbaths are by the Jubilee calendar and dare not to ever lose out on the 7x7x7x7x7 for eternity. The first seventh yr of Adam on earth was a land sabbatical and every seventh since has been. The solar day calendar was before earth and so was the Jubilee calendar and earth was put in sync with the Heavenly long instituted time clocks. Also those two aren't the only ones the Eternal One has.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

This makes me wonder if you've ever seen a Jewish calendar!!!!! Because the month of Nissan goes from our month of March to April!!!!! So not sure where your getting your false info from?

[Lysimachus]

Pkrause,

Gibs thinks that the Jewish Calendar has been changed, you see. Even though he has not offered one shred of proof that such an occurrence has taken place. He reads certain texts in the Bible for which he then interprets as not supporting the Jewish Calendar, then concludes that the calendar must have been changed rather than questioning his interpretation of the texts in question.

So it's a lose lose. I was really hoping that having Pickle come in here, Gibs would finally concede, but regardless, he continues to assert that his interpretation of those texts support his calendar, and not ours, even though the math does not add up.

[phkrause]

Pkrause,

Gibs thinks that the Jewish Calendar has been changed, you see. Even though he has not offered one shred of proof that such an occurrence has taken place. He reads certain texts in the Bible for which he then interprets as not supporting the Jewish Calendar, then concludes that the calendar must have been changed rather than questioning his interpretation of the texts in question.

So it's a lose lose. I was really hoping that having Pickle come in here, Gibs would finally concede, but regardless, he continues to assert that his interpretation of those texts support his calendar, and not ours, even though the math does not add up.

[Gibs]

Lys,

You got me wrong, I for myself never believed the Jews changed Nisan to the fall, I had read some thought that.

But My thrust is the new year don't start in the fall but in Spring as God let them know. Why the change of starting a new yr. in the fall I do not know or care as it can't be and never has been and never will be because God don't change. If He did we couldn't trust Him.

I've noticed how you you and others pounced on Jasd and it is uncalled for. The guy just says things some different but he makes a lot of sense if you wouldn't be so hasty to discredit him.

Some of you here think you're the only ones with anything right, well you are not. You may be good at running of members.

It is fine to disagree but make our comebacks at least as nice as we would to our dog.

We don't need pouncers, we need more brotherly love with ones we don't agree with.

And no picky ones, I do not think the Jewish calendar has been changed.

I do say and will stand behind it, a new yr begins with the spring equinox, like it or not that you can not change me to your idea, you are not God or I'd pay attention. After all He is the one who said it does.

Let's act like Bros. not enemies.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Pickle]

Disabuse me wherein I err, but I seem to find that Biblically, the Shemitah begins with the first monthe Abib/Nisan -- and that the Tishri beginning for the Shemitah has its origins in the Babylonian Talmud.

[Pickle]

Read and reread the given texts "(see Ezra 6:14; 7:1, 9)" in the quotes above -- and find it impossible to find any reference to "The commandment to restore and build Jerusalem". Wh'sup? Miscue? Wishful or mangled exposition? Dare I say, "ERROR"?

Incidentally, neither could I find any reference to other than the Temple/House of Gd in ANY of the three 'Decrees' being so assertively proffered...

jasd, did you first look for an answer to your question before you concluded that Ellen White made an error? If not, then I think you erred. Often what at first appears to be a mistake is instead supported by an air-tight, irrefutable argument. If we never look for it, we tend to never find it.

For starters, note that Is. 44:28; 45:13 explicitly state that Cyrus would command the building of the city of Jerusalem. Therefore, anyone who says that Cyrus' decree did not command the building of Jerusalem (the primary justification for starting the 70 weeks with Artaxerxes' 20th year) is simply wrong.

(You wouldn't go so far as to say that Isaiah as well as Ellen White got it wrong, would you? If so, I think we can address that too.)

Secondly, we have to determine what about Jerusalem was to be restored. Is. 1:26 predicts that the judiciary would be restored, and of the three decrees, only the one of Artaxerxes' 7th year in Ezra 7 does that.

Thirdly, Dan. 9 itself points to the fact that the judiciary must be restored. Note that the Hebrew text twice in 9:25 says "restore and build." Note also that it singles out the street or plaza, and the wall or moat as being restored and built.

Why do some versions say wall while others say moat? The correct translation of the Hebrew word is in doubt, though the root word occurs twice in 9:26, 27 where it is rendered in the KJV as "determined," something referring to God's judgment.

Lastly, note that Joel 3:14 uses the same Hebrew word for wall or moat and translates it as "decision." In the valley of decision, the valley of "Jehoshaphat" ("Jehoshaphat" means "Jehovah has judged"), God judges the nations.

Therefore, we MUST look for a decree to restore and build the judiciary (wall/moat) and the place where judging takes place (street/plaza). The only one of the three decrees that could possibly be referred to is the decree of Artaxerxes' 7th year.

And thus Ellen White was correct after all.

[Lysimachus]

Lys,

You got me wrong, I for myself never believed the Jews changed Nisan to the fall, I had read some thought that.

But My thrust is the new year don't start in the fall but in Spring as God let them know. Why the change of starting a new yr. in the fall I do not know or care as it can't be and never has been and never will be because God don't change. If He did we couldn't trust Him.

Because Sabbaticals are not based on Spring to Spring, they are based on Fall to Fall. The 70 weeks were in alignment with Sabbaticals. See Leviticus 25:8,9. At the end of the seven sabbaths of years the trumpet of the jubilee sounds on the seventh month of the year, which was in the fall, not the spring. Is this so hard to understand Gibs?

If you need affirmation (from scripture!), once again, you may need to read the following article by our friend Mr. Pickle here:

http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/sabbatical-years.htm

[Pickle]

I do say and will stand behind it, a new yr begins with the spring equinox, like it or not that you can not change me to your idea, you are not God or I'd pay attention.

Consider well what you are saying here. Your mind is made up, and no biblical argument anyone presents will convince you? That is a very dangerous position to take.

If you didn't mean to come across that way, then consider that you did not state that you were open to consider any Bible verses that anyone might present.

You would like others to treat kindly those they disagree with. That is commendable, for that should always be. However, how we treat those we disagree with must include having a teachable spirit, where we are open to further enlightenment from the Scriptures, or the SoP. Kindness must be coupled with openness.

More than once I have given you an opportunity to address the harvest problem. If you can provide a sound answer for this biblical problem, then I will consider the possibility that the sabbatical years began in the spring. But if no one can provide an answer, then if the Bible really is our rule of faith and practice, the only possibility is for us all to agree that the sabbatical years began in the fall.

This is how the Sabbath Conferences of 1848 were conducted, correct? Strong minded individuals conceded when shown from Scripture that they were wrong, or, at times, when rebuked by visions. Why can't we do the same today?

[Lysimachus]

No disrespect toward Gibs or JASD, but they are both men well up in age (iirc). And like they say, it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks.

Hey, I get how hard it is. There are old ways of things I learned to do, and man was it hard for me to change, as once I get used to something I hate starting over again. So I can understand. But still, we have to make up our minds to overcome this problem, as difficult as it may be.

[jasd]

>>I've noticed how you you and others pounced on Jasd and it is uncalled for. The guy just says things some different but he makes a lot of sense if you wouldn't be so hasty to discredit him.

Some of you here think you're the only ones with anything right, well you are not.<<

Hey Gibs!--thanks, for trying to ameliorate what you perceive as "pouncing" on me. I assure you that though I would register that fact should someone of stature do so -- those doing any "pouncing" on me are noted only for the sympathy they elicit from me for their genuine silliness -- and for their lack of elegance and sophistication. Not everyone bothers to learn the fine points of enculturation.

I really don't mind their yukking it up. You know simple people do simple things. Anyway,

what I post can almost always be backed-up by a cogent reading of Writ -- and not all those superfluous notions; so my confidence level rises above... except that I enjoy vigoricity.

Thanks, again, but no problema.

[jasd]

Pardon me, but mea culpa, I jumped-in late. I'd not read any of the foregoing pages, as I thought -- ah sheesh, more of that imaginary type/anti-type stuff.

So, I obviously missed the posit that there were 6 harvests during the Shemitah cycle.

>>For barley and wheat, if sabbatical years started in the spring, they would only get 4 or 5 harvests every 7 years, never 6 harvests, since they planted these grains in the fall and reaped them in the spring. And thus, according to the Bible, sabbatical years MUST start in the fall.<< [ed.jasd]

Lev 25:20 And if ye shall say, What shall we eat the seventh year? behold we shall not sow, nor gather in our increase;

Lev 25:21 Then I will command my blessing upon you in the sixth year, and it shall bring forth fruit for three years.

Doesn't the fact that Leviticus 25:21 states that the increase to provide for three years address the fact that 5 harvests, rather than 6, are in view?--ipso facto, Spring Shemitah.

>>Back to the point at hand: Please either address the harvest problem, or concede the point that sabbatical years could not have commenced in the spring.<<

Isn't that why Gd provided for three years harvest in the sixth year?--and doesn't the fact that Gd provided for three years sustenance speak to a Spring Shemitah?

Speaking of "conceding" -- what of the half year lost to the Shemitah cycle should it have begun in the Fall when, in fact, the COI entered Canaanland in the Spring?

[Johnnboy]

Johnnboy,

Please help me to understand how you see the verse:

Quote:

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

I would think that the year 457 BC would be counted from October or even November onward, and you seem to agree close enough, but this comment seems a little askew to me:

Quote:

So autumn 457 B.C.E. when the decree of Artaxerxes went “forth” would have been in the middle of the first year in the second week of years, near the end of the ceremonial cycle of the sacred year, but the year would have ended in the spring of 458 B.C.E.

I consider the passover to sit in the MIDST OF THE WEEK there. But perhaps that some years are counted beginning with the Passover. In fact the original Passover in Egypt starts the year with the beginning of months. That would be the time of the Exodus... Right?

So, that's fine with me... Anyway, it would appear that clarity is not in its 100% state here.

Maybe you can add something for more clarify. If not I guess that October through April are the months of hibernation, when people are aware of nothing??!!!!

But I can see how Spring, Summer and Fall can be used in prophetic allegory to designate a process from inception to completion. So that might be the idea here.

But I tend to think that beyond the Atonement day there was the Feast of Tabernacles, which implied the Saved people going out and camping elsewhere than their homes. And that stretches into November...

Dennis

Brother Dennis Kean,

“Then, said the angel, "He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week [seven years]." For seven years after the Saviour entered on His ministry, the gospel was to be preached especially to the Jews; for three and a half years by Christ Himself; and afterward by the apostles. "In the midst of the week He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." Daniel 9:27. In the spring of A. D. 31, Christ the true sacrifice was offered on Calvary. Then the veil of the temple was rent in twain, showing that the sacredness and significance of the sacrificial service had departed. The time had come for the earthly sacrifice and oblation to cease.” Desire of Ages, 233

spring 27-spring 28 = 1 year

spring 28-spring 29 = 2 years

spring 29-spring 30 = 3 years

spring 30-spring 31 = 4 years

spring 31-spring 32 = 5 years

spring 32-spring 33 = 6 years

spring 33-spring 34 = 7 years

In the “midst of the week” means in the middle of the week of years or 7 years. Spring 31, when the Passover was fulfilled by the death of Christ, is 3 and ½ years from the year 27 C.E. 3 and ½ years remain of the week of years to 34 C.E.

My comment:

So autumn 457 B.C.E. when Artaxerxes' decree went “forth” would have been in the middle of the first year in the second week of years, near the end of the ceremonial cycle of the sacred year, but the year would have ended in the spring 458 B.C. E.

The annual ceremonial cycle of the Hebrew festivals began in the first month and ended near the end of the seventh month, therefore, the year, itself, continued with an eight month, ninth month, tenth month, eleventh month, twelfth month, and sometimes even a thirteenth month, before the next year began, but all the divinely-appointed ceremonies ended in the seventh month. (Seven indicates completeness and extending till the end of time.

“...seven--indicates completeness and is symbolic of the fact that the messages extend to the end of time...” 1 MR 372)

So this 7th month was just a little over half-way through the year, because the year did not end until the new moon after the next spring equinox. That is what I meant by saying that the decree “went forth” in the middle of the year. 457 B.C.E. was year 1 in a set of 7 years. These seven years were the second set of seven years in the count to 49 years, the year before the next Jubilee year.

Continuing the count of the Jubilee years brings us down to 27 C.E., when Christ declared the Jubilee on the 10th day of the 7th month of the Jubilee year, on the exact day specified in the type for the blowing of the Jubilee trumpet (Leviticus 25:8-10).

The entire year of 31 C.E. was the “middle” of a week of years. The Passover was to be observed on the 14th day of the first month each year. Yes, that was the time of the Exodus from Egypt.

Although there were no annual feasts to be observed after the 22nd day of the 7th month, there were still daily services, 7th day Sabbath services and the new moon services marking each new month, which continued on through the remaining months of the year until the new moon after the next spring equinox, which began the new year.

Yes, all of the annual festivals were a prophetic allegory continuing on into the beginning of November in some years for the last festival, the Feast of Tabernacles—living in leafy booths or shelters.

[Johnnboy]

Yes, Brother Gibs,

The first month of God's year was Abib or Nisan.

[jasd]

>>And like they say, it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks.<<

Exactamente! So, re your above post:

>>See Leviticus 25:8,9. At the end of the seven sabbaths of years the trumpet of the jubilee sounds on the seventh month of the year, which was in the fall, not the spring. Is this so hard to understand Gibs?<<

Umm, I don't know how to break this to you, but "Jubilee" is not in the Hebrew text. It is supplied. So, one cannot use Leviticus 25:9 to prove an Autumnal Shemitah.

>>But still, we have to make up our minds to overcome this problem, as difficult as it may be.<<

Can you renew your position and your mind?