God Reveals Mysteries in the Sanctuary Schedule In Type and Anti-Type

[Johnnboy]

Brother Pickle,

You can be sure that God's calendar is very consistent in that all the years begin at the same time that He specified for the beginning of the year, the Sabbatical year and the Jubilee year, as well. Every year on God's calendar, whether the first year, the seventh year, the 49th year or the Jubilee year, they all begin on the first month of the sacred year. They begin with the new moon on or after the spring equinox.

The references in Nehemiah are mentioning the Hebrew months in relation to the Babylonian year. Artaxerxes, the Babylonian king, would not be using God's year to reckon the years of his reign, therefore, Nehemiah, who was a Hebrew working in the Babylonian court, used the names of the Hebrews months, as they related to the number of years of the Babylonian king's reign which were counted according to the Babylonian calendar.

In the Babylonian year an intercalary month, a 13th month, was added in certain years causing this 13th month to extend their year into the month, Nisan, in some years.

Nehemiah 1:1 mentions the month Chisleu, which was the ninth month of the Hebrew year corresponding to December, and Nehemiah 2:1 mentions the first month of the next Hebrew year, Nisan, which could have still been the 20th year.

Although we are only told in the Bible that it was the 20th year of Artaxerxes' reign. He may not have begun his reign on day 1 of the first Babylonian month. For example, if he began his reign in September, he would continue in his first year through the next July or August, until the next September, when he would begin the second year of his reign.

For another example, take a look at your own birthday. Say you are 20 years old in the month of July and you continue to be in your 20th year even in the month of May of the following year.

These texts would not prove that there was a fall to fall calendar year.

As I stated above, the Sabbatical year begins at the same time of any of the years. There is no problem about the Hebrew harvest, if one just takes what is stated in the texts. There were essentially two harvests each year. The first harvest, after the wave sheaf offering, from the sowing of grain the previous fall, and the second harvest in the seventh month, from the planting in the spring of that year.

From the following text, the feast of ingathering was to be observed “in the end of the year.”--which was considered the end of the annual festivals.

“And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of ingathering, [which is] in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labours out of the field.”

Exodus 23:16

“And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.” Exodus 34:22. Some Bible versions translate “the year's end” as the end of the year's harvest.

God's promise was:

“And if ye shall say, What shall we eat the seventh year? behold, we shall not sow, nor gather in our increase: “Then I will command my blessing upon you in the sixth year, and it shall bring forth fruit for three years. And ye shall sow the eighth year, and eat [yet] of old fruit until the ninth year; until her fruits come in ye shall eat [of] the old store.” Leviticus 25:20-22

“Every seventh year special provision was made for the poor. The sabbatical year, as it was called, began at the end of the harvest. At the seedtime, which followed the ingathering, the people were not to sow; they should not dress the vineyard in the spring; and they must expect neither harvest nor vintage. Of that which the land produced spontaneously they might eat while fresh, but they were not to lay up any portion of it in their storehouses. The yield of this year was to be free for the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and even for the creatures of the field.” Exodus 23:10, 11; Leviticus 25:5.

“But if the land ordinarily produced only enough to supply the wants of the people, how were they to subsist during the year when no crops were gathered? For this the promise of God made ample provision. "I will command My blessing upon you in the sixth year," He said, "and it shall bring forth fruit for three years. And ye shall sow the eighth year, and eat yet of old fruit until the ninth year; until her fruits come in ye shall eat of the old store." Leviticus 25:21, 22. Patriarchs and Prophets, 531

“The observance of the sabbatical year was to be a benefit to both the land and the people. The soil, lying untilled for one season, would afterward produce more plentifully.” Patriarchs and Prophets, 532

Brother Marcos,

As you can see whenever the end of the 70th weeks is mentioned in the Spirit of Prophecy, the word “autumn” is not mentioned with it? Because it did not end in the autumn, it ended in the spring, just before the first day of the first month, which is between March 20th and April 20th .

We need to watch that we do not confuse the “Jubilee year” with the event of the “Jubilee” which is to be announced on a special day of that year. Specifically stated, the Jubilee trumpet was to be blown on the 10th day of the 7th month, not the 1st day of the 1st month of that year, nor the last day of the last month of that year, but only on one day of that year. That is why Jesus blew the Jubilee trumpet on the 10th day of 7th month of that Jubilee year, when He declared the Jubilee, by reading the Jubilee prophecy of Isaiah 61:1, 2, on the Sabbath Day of Atonement of that Jubilee year and then stated, “This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.”

“Few realize the full meaning of the words that Christ spoke when, in the synagogue at Nazareth, He announced Himself as the Anointed One.” Acts of the Apostles, 416

[phkrause]

Johnnboy excellent post

[Pickle]

Doesn't the fact that Leviticus 25:21 states that the increase to provide for three years address the fact that 5 harvests, rather than 6, are in view?--ipso facto, Spring Shemitah.

[Pickle]

spring 27-spring 28 = 1 year

spring 28-spring 29 = 2 years

spring 29-spring 30 = 3 years

spring 30-spring 31 = 4 years

spring 31-spring 32 = 5 years

spring 32-spring 33 = 6 years

spring 33-spring 34 = 7 years

In the “midst of the week” means in the middle of the week of years or 7 years. Spring 31, when the Passover was fulfilled by the death of Christ, is 3 and ½ years from the year 27 C.E. 3 and ½ years remain of the week of years to 34 C.E.

[Gibs]

Some verses on the subject,

Le 25:10 And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubile unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family.

Le 25:11 A jubile shall that fiftieth year be unto you: ye shall not sow, neither reap that which groweth of itself in it, nor gather the grapes in it of thy vine undressed.

Le 25:12 For it is the jubile; it shall be holy unto you: ye shall eat the increase thereof out of the field.

Le 25:13 In the year of this jubile ye shall return every man unto his possession.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Lysimachus]

Johnnboy,

The Spirit of Prophecy does not have to mention "Autumn of 34 A.D." for it to be implied. She clearly states "Autumn of 457 B.C." (not Spring as you assert), and "Autumn of 27 A.D.". Exactly 7 years from Autumn 27 A.D. would be Autumn 34 A.D. (not Spring 34 A.D.), and she unequivocally states: " "The one week--seven years--ended in A. D. 34." (DA 233) [exact quote from her]. She would have had to say "6 1/2 years" in order to meet your criteria.

If you end the 70th week in the Spring of 34 A.D. and not Fall, then Christ's crucifixion cannot be rightly identified as being in the "middle" of the week if being in the Spring of 31 A.D. as you agree.

Spring 27 - Spring 31 = 4 years (not 3 1/2)

Spring 31 - Spring 34 = 3 years (not 3 1/2)

Thus, in order for it to be exactly 7 years, and Christ's death in the middle of the week to be Spring, the 7 years must commence in Autumn of 27 A.D. and END in the Autumn of 34 A.D. The math doesn't lie.

I find it most unusual how you rely on the Spirit of Prophecy so much, yet her very words contradict what you are teaching. This is not in alignment with the SOP.

Both you and Gibs appear to be off on your own tangents, neither agreeing, but both wrong, and both out of step with the SOP, the Pioneers, and the scholars.

Is this not called "private interpretation"?

What is it going to take for us to speak with one voice? We won't have much impact on the Dispensational world when we go out to preach the Three Angel's Messages if we are all talking something different.

All because some of us choose to be stubborn and not come into line. And then the evangelical world laughs at us, and says, "see, not even you guys can agree!". Well I say let's AGREE.

[Guest DennisKean]

The future of the Adventist movement depends on the youth and I am more and more convinced of that. I know that it is often said that old men have experience, but fresh ideas and advancement definitely require fresh minds.

16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.

17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

I've had the pleasure of meeting a few young men via this forum in the last few days and recognize how much more astute a fresh mind is to deal with research. God bless our young people. Entrenchment is the death of reason. New wine definitely bursts the old bottles. When confidence switches from reliance on reason to reliance on traditional views, it is time to take up golfing and growing flowers.

Dennis

[Gibs]

Lys,

Spring to spring and you will not have any trouble, anyway I sure don't and from JohnBoy he don't seem to either. You just cannot move anything a bit of the Jubilee calendar. It marches on in perfect timing and man cannot change it, and God will not for we know He never does. The Jubilee calandar is one of God's Great Time clocks runing from all eternity past into all eternity future and perfectly never misses a beat of accuracy. You can trust it as it is accurate.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

DL,

Just a question on young men vs old men.

If the council and leading of each generation of the young is superior to the council and leadiing of the older then why is it waxing worse all the time and not better.?

The wisdom of the old who have seen purer days I do believe need to be heard. However even if it were more fully, I doubt the propagation of evil would but continue but not so fast and ugly.

You see each generation of young are melded into a more perverse generation each time and don't see that it is more evil than the before one as the old do.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Guest DennisKean]

Gibs,

You have confirmed my comments herewith, though you attempted to do otherwise. In saying what you did, you made no distinction between Wisdom and ability to perceive novel ideas. You lump everything into this bag of "Older is by default better", not realizing the implications. The fact is this. Young folks comprehend ideas by osmosis, more than by verbal communication. And in effect every generation assimilates the ideas aggregated by aged men in far less time. This is an uncontested point. The reason is that a young mind has a flexibility which older folks cannot maintain forever. Some can go further, but once you start to rely on the idea that you are older, therefore wiser, that idea is analogous to Rheumatoid Arthritis of the mind! Self doubt and review of former impressions is the very tissue responsible for flexibility of thought. Readiness to accede to proper reasoning is the very evidence of a good working mind. Tenacity is not.

But older folks too often relax in their older age and inevitably nurse themselves to sleep with the idea that age has brought them wisdom. This impression is what makes it hard to advance. I have told you in that other forum already that you prefer entrenchment to reason and you took it adversely. But that has been demonstrated here with unparalleled clarity, Gibs. Ignoring what others say, as they attempt to reason with you, is analogous to doing what the ostrish does by burying its head in the sand. In fact it hurts or at least frustrates others to be told that in spite of excellent reasoning and impressive eloquence, they are wrong.

You need to first recognize what others are saying and then show the very moment where the fork of the road is and why you went the other way. Marcos, Pickle and others have done that with a great effort, eloquence on their part to bring, I dare say, stunning clarity to you and you did not recognize their kind effort of doing so.

I, however, having had an encounter with you in a different forum blew my fuse at Jasd and went over the line from the frustration. Well, I was wrong, I should have been patient, and I apologize to Jasd for my comments, herewith. But be it known that irrational reasons for entrenchment is upsetting in a forum where rationale is the currency of the engagement.

Now, as regards young people being the decline of society, you need to consider that someone else might contend that it is the old people who hold back advancement by cashing in on undeserved credits of age and thus place the blame on the elderly.

But I would not make sweeping comments of that sort about people of any age groups other than what the Savior has advanced with the two verses I supplied in my former post. Blame is blame and too often it comes from emotional reactions, so please rethink your punitive imputations of the younger generation. In fact to my great joy I have just met a few brilliant young people who have restored my confidence in God's unfailing words. "New wine must be poured into New bottles." God knows what happens to man in the various stages of his age. That is an incontrovertible point if you believe in God. Refresh your humility and test yourself, before you decide to offer tenacity as a currency of rationale.

Dennis

[Guest DennisKean]

Gibs,

Hyperboles dramatize and solidify a properly formed argument. They do nothing for one which has failed.

Dennis

[Lysimachus]

Thank you Dennis for the outstanding clarity revolving the differences in reasoning and wisdom between young and old.

Every old person was young at one point. Many of the conclusions they reach in their old age are usually built on top of the reasoning they exercised in their younger age, but in-turn was built on gleaned data from the old before them (and those old were once young too). Our attainment in knowledge is usually far greater in old age, but many times there is the tendency to add "elements", in an attempt to "expand" that knowledge, only end up adding fallacious features that cripple our original simple understanding. This can happen easily when we get bored of old knowledge, and naturally desire something new and sensational to add a "twist" to what we learned previously. But often times, we're better off just leaving things as they were--because we may very well just be ruining it.

I may be young, but my nose is buried in scores and scores of books much older than Gibs. In fact, my positions reflect hundreds of people FAR older than Gibs--so old in fact, they have been dead for 120+ years.

Thus, so far, from my own reasoning and logic, I find that these great pioneers reflected sound reason and judgment in their understanding. Why, after all, the entire Adventist Church was founded on mostly young people! And all these young people eventually became old. Had it not been for the brilliant minds of these young pioneers, there never would have been an "old Adventist". Maybe an "old Presbyterian".

Perhaps I'm not making sense, but just thought I'd express some of my current sentiments on the matter. :)

[Lysimachus]

I will agree with Gibs, however, on the degenerate generation existing today.

But this mainly due to the fact that:

#1. They do not study.

#2. They are not encouraged to study like they should.

Those young people that do finish the work will be ones who studied, prayed, and agonized like never before. These are the kinds of young people we will be relying on in the very end to get the job done.

[Guest DennisKean]

Marcos,

EGW, bless her soul has made some impressive comments about flexibility of mind and humility.

Quote:

The more satisfied anyone is with himself, and his present knowledge, the less earnestly and humbly will he seek to be guided into all truth. The less of the Holy Spirit of God he has, the more self-satisfied and complacent he will feel. He will not search earnestly and with the deepest interest to know more of truth. But unless he keeps pace with the Leader, who is guiding into all truth, he will be left behind, belated, blinded, confused, because he is not walking in the light. . . . The word of God is to be the man of our counsel. . . . All heaven is looking upon the remnant people of God, to see if they will make truth alone their shield and buckler. Unless the truth is presented as it is in Jesus, and is planted in the heart by the power of the Spirit of God, even ministers will be found drifting away from Christ, away from piety, away from religious principle. They will become blind leaders of the blind.--Ms 14, 1886, pp. 1, 5, 6, 8-11. ("Christian Integrity in the Ministry," 1886.)

Her batting average was rather high. But not all old men have stiffened up with RA. I know many who maintain their humility and self doubt and who find themselves able to continue progressing with amazing flexibility of mind.

So, my comment was not an all sweeping comment. It is just that many give up. But it is up to each man to give up flexibility at any point in time. There are young people I meet on forums, occasionally who know everything. It is hilarious, but they know everything there is to know.

Ah, life is so hard sometimes... But you are correct about the age of those folks. EGW was rather young in 1844 and she, as well as many others have made a stunning contribution. Look at Daniel and his friends. As we age we must keep up self doubt, no matter how we may be impressed with self. That is the the solution to staying young and supple. Humble pie is all around us. But it is better to avoid it if at all possible.

Cheers,

Dennis

[Guest DennisKean]

Marcos,

Excellent point you made on "Aggregate knowledge". It is a pivotal issue for those who search out tradition as their seat of comfort. Many people think themselves as knowledgeable, pious and religious because they have sought and found the body of beliefs which define the group they belong to. And they tenaciously hang on to these values as if those aggregated values are the holy grail. They place their trust in the wisdom of those who passed before them and question only those who oppose their little kingdom of comfort and acceptance.

For those individuals there is a sobering advice from EGW!

Quote:

A brother asked, "Sister White, do you think we must understand the truth for ourselves? Why can we not take the truths that others have gathered together, and believe them because they have investigated the subjects, and then we shall be free to go on without the taxing of the powers of the mind in the investigation of all these subjects? Do you not think that these men who have brought out the truth in the past were inspired of God?"

I dare not say they were not led of God, for Christ leads into all truth; but when it comes to inspiration in the fullest sense of the word, I answer, No. I believe that God has given them a work to do, but if they are not fully consecrated to God at all times, they will weave self and their peculiar traits of character into what they are doing, and will put their mold upon the work, and fashion men in religious experience after their own pattern. It is dangerous for us to make flesh our arm. We should lean upon the arm of Infinite Power. God has been revealing this to us for years. We must have living faith in our hearts and reach out for larger knowledge and more advanced light. Review and Herald, March 25, 1890.

I respect this wonderful lady for some of her wonderful insights. God gave her a clarity of mind which is so very impressive.

[Lysimachus]

Good stuff Dennis! =]

[doug yowell]

Thus, so far, from my own reasoning and logic, I find that these great pioneers reflected sound reason and judgment in their understanding. Why, after all, the entire Adventist Church was founded on mostly young people! And all these young people eventually became old. Had it not been for the brilliant minds of these young pioneers, there never would have been an "old Adventist".

And where did these brilliant young minds get these great powers of reason and logic? And did they learn thru osmosis? The younger minds had to wrestle with the conflicting conclusions of the previous generations who had themselves already done most of the footwork. It should not be forgotten that the two deepest revelations of the mysteries of God came to two of the oldest disciples of God who had faithfully walked with Him up until the last years of their lives.Intellectual brilliance is Biblically arrived at by a lifetime (be it 15 years or 75 years)of obedience to what has been revealed not merely by what one thinks they have discovered.One of the weaknesses of today's generation is that they often believe that an increase in knowledge makes them more spiritually mature. And so they/we continue on the same attitudes of the past generations.

[Guest DennisKean]

Quote:

And where did these brilliant young minds get these great powers of reason and logic? And did they learn thru osmosis?

It depends how you mean it, saying "thru osmosis." If you mean to alter the meaning I implied, then No. If you mean the means of young minds to catch on effortlessly, because their minds do not have to weed through the fears, egos and apprehensions of the older folks, then YES!

Quote:

The younger minds had to wrestle with the conflicting conclusions of the previous generations who had themselves already done most of the footwork.

Are you sure? What led you to that conclusion??? Most of the time young ones skip that step and take a shortcut. The shortcut is that they can take advantage of the generalizations of the older folk and skip the brain busting. But because they do not have to rework everything from scratch, more energy can be devoted to testing the generalizations of the older generation. So, there is no way to take away the advantage of the younger folk. An empty database can operate at ferocious speed, whereas a huge database simply cannot. This is elementary in data processing.

Quote:

It should not be forgotten that the two deepest revelations of the mysteries of God came to two of the oldest disciples of God who had faithfully walked with Him up until the last years of their lives.Intellectual brilliance is Biblically arrived at by a lifetime (be it 15 years or 75 years)of obedience to what has been revealed not merely by what one thinks they have discovered.One of the weaknesses of today's generation is that they often believe that an increase in knowledge makes them more spiritually mature. And so they/we continue on the same attitudes of the past generations.

I detect that you may be seeking to circumvent the idea that "New wine must be poured in New bottles." But I do not think that the Savior meant to embarrass the older folks with that comment. It is just common experience that older folk tend to gravitate toward entrenchment because of much knowledge. Those who do not are far better off.

Also, wisdom is not what is at play, here. It is no news that young people are easier to teach. The point was to be aware that assumptions like "I'm older and I can process things better and faster" may not be correct. That just does not follow. Young minds can process faster because they have fewer predispositions.

There are older folk who can maintain great flexibility. But the body does get old at some point and there are consequences. But wisdom is different from brilliance. And young people need humble older folk who are wise. Entrenchment is the problem and no matter what age, reprocessing is important. I am an old man too. And we thank God for the younger people. Young people are our hope and those who are wise will know how to make use of their skills. Their advantage needs to be recognized. I can only wish to be able to dump all the luggage I carry with age, so I can rev up the engine. But the throttle and choke are backfiring too much...

[Guest DennisKean]

Quote:

I will agree with Gibs, however, on the degenerate generation existing today.

Marcos,

What we see today is the age of superlatives. There are very bad young people and some very good young people. Knowledge has expanded and it is a furious age where things are reaching extremes in all directions. It is a scary time where generalizations other than those God supplies to us are suspicious any more. None of us have seen these extremes before. And it is a frightening time where our minds can no longer assess sober rationalizations about global causes. But compare it to the Dark Ages and see how it pans out.

The Bible too is critical against a category of people, but it does not place the blame on a particular age group. Young people are not at fault. If there is a group that the Bible isolates it is those who are in power and the rich! Without fail and in all situations God puts a finger on those who wield power and wealth. Here are examples:

Quote:

Isa 2:7 Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither is there any end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses, neither is there any end of their chariots:

8 Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:

9 And the mean man boweth down, and the great man humbleth himself: therefore forgive them not.

10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty.

11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

And again:

Quote:

Isa 10: 33 Behold, the Lord, the LORD of hosts, shall lop the bough with terror: and the high ones of stature shall be hewn down, and the haughty shall be humbled.

And again:

Quote:

Isa 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

And yet again:

Quote:

Mat_19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat_19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

It is pretty consistent...

And no, old people are not the ones to blame either. God knows we all need wisdom.

Dennis

[Gibs]

Here is just a little scripture read on the subject,

1Ki 12:8 But he forsook the counsel of the old men, which they had given him, and consulted with the young men that were grown up with him, and which stood before him:

1Ki 12:9 And he said unto them, What counsel give ye that we may answer this people, who have spoken to me, saying, Make the yoke which thy father did put upon us lighter?

1Ki 12:10 And the young men that were grown up with him spake unto him, saying, Thus shalt thou speak unto this people that spake unto thee, saying, Thy father made our yoke heavy, but make thou it lighter unto us; thus shalt thou say unto them, My little finger shall be thicker than my father's loins.

1Ki 12:11 And now whereas my father did lade you with a heavy yoke, I will add to your yoke: my father hath chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.

1Ki 12:12 So Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam the third day, as the king had appointed, saying, Come to me again the third day.

1Ki 12:13 And the king answered the people roughly, and forsook the old men's counsel that they gave him;

1Ki 12:14 And spake to them after the counsel of the young men, saying, My father made your yoke heavy, and I will add to your yoke: my father also chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.

1Ki 12:15 Wherefore the king hearkened not unto the people; for the cause was from the LORD, that he might perform his saying, which the LORD spake by Ahijah the Shilonite unto Jeroboam the son of Nebat.

1Ki 12:16 ¶ So when all Israel saw that the king hearkened not unto them, the people answered the king, saying, What portion have we in David? neither have we inheritance in the son of Jesse: to your tents, O Israel: now see to thine own house, David. So Israel departed unto their tents.

1Ki 12:17 But as for the children of Israel which dwelt in the cities of Judah, Rehoboam reigned over them.

1Ki 12:18 Then king Rehoboam sent Adoram, who was over the tribute; and all Israel stoned him with stones, that he died. Therefore king Rehoboam made speed to get him up to his chariot, to flee to Jerusalem.

1Ki 12:19 So Israel rebelled against the house of David unto this day.

Ec 2:13 Then I saw that wisdom excelleth folly, as far as light excelleth darkness.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Guest DennisKean]

How did I know that you would pull that one on me, Gibs??? But I'm an older man too! See!

So take that Bible passage and put it next to what the Savior said about new bottles and give me your rationale.

The point here is not older versus younger, Gibs. I see your comments against young people as sweeping and slanderous. The point, however, is ENTRENCHMENT. You are tenacious with the intent of wanting to have EVERYTHING your way in spite of reason. That is the point. And you are hurting yourself. Yet you have good things to share with others about Jubilees and other. You just don't represent them well in the heat of a debate.

But please let's agree to disagree, my friend. We are too far off target and nothing really valuable is being said here. I'm out of this sub-thread!

Dennis

[Gibs]

DK,

I just thought you would like to level the playing field by reading those scriptures is all.

I wonder if Jesus was not talking about old men vs young at all.

Well I too believe that it is not the most important topic but I do believe you are off base when you want to downgrade the older men as you will find as you grow older you also are growing in wisdom and understanding. The closer one is to God and asked him for it there is nothing else He would rather give.

EGW said "agitate, agitate" and I thought that was what you were a doing to get some back and forth comments.

We are to be humble, malleable and teachable in His the Potters hands from whom all wisdom flows.

We all should gain a greater see of His Wisdom each day, growing in Him.

His Blessings,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Guest DennisKean]

I know those Scriptures intimately well, Gibs. I was cognizant of them as I was responding to you. In fact I anticipated that you would misuse them on me as I was responding to you, and you did!

As regards what the Savior was talking about, I believe that He was talking about people who have become accustomed to seeing things one way and not wanting to see things any other way, Gibs.

Next point: I was not downgrading old men, just those who are entrenched, be they young or old. It just so happens that most young people have not lived long enough to reach entrenchment. See how that works? I thought that I made that fairly clear.

Well, agitating is great, but it is better to get to know people before one stomps the foot. Everyone thinks that they have the ultimate truth. So, dialogue is a good way to accomplish the goal of agitation.

Let's let this sub-thread lapse, Gibs and seek for better things to talk about. I'm going to make an effort to avoid this type of exchange. There are better topics.

[Gibs]

Let this thread go back to Johnboy's original topic,

"GOD REVEALS MYSTERIES IN THE SANCTUARY SCHEDULE IN TYPE & ANTI-TYPE"

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

Read and reread the given texts "(see Ezra 6:14; 7:1, 9)" in the quotes above -- and find it impossible to find any reference to "The commandment to restore and build Jerusalem". Wh'sup? Miscue? Wishful or mangled exposition? Dare I say, "ERROR"?

Incidentally, neither could I find any reference to other than the Temple/House of Gd in ANY of the three 'Decrees' being so assertively proffered...

>>jasd, did you first look for an answer to your question before you concluded that Ellen White made an error?<<

My answer is in hand before I post.

>>If not, then I think you erred. Often what at first appears to be a mistake is instead supported by an air-tight, irrefutable argument. If we never look for it, we tend to never find it.<<

Okay, I see that you may be attempting to give credence to the premature expositing of the book of Daniel. Have I perceived wrongly? Anyway, have I mentioned that those who did so, did so when knowledge was pitifully lacking with most people living and dying within a 20 mile radius of where they were born? Those facts fly in the face of the words of Gd to seal the book of Daniel -- "until ... many shall run to and fro and knowledge shal be increased" -- confluently.

>>For starters, note that Is. 44:28;<<

Is 44:22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.

Notice, that the chapter has Messianic overtones...

Is 44:28 That saith of Cyrus, [He is] my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.

And that the book of Isaiah is written in Hebrew and that the 'translated' "Cyrus" is actually Kow Resh in Hebrew; meaning; ‘pierced head’ (Kaf-Vav – pierced and Rosh-Shin meaning head)... Who in Writ comes to mind when ‘pierced head’ is mentioned?--umm, 'a crown of thorns' comes to mind? Still thematically Messianic, yes? Moreover,

is it not the one whose head was pierced who is the Shephard? Messianic, yes? Kinda like some of the Psalms with their interpolated Messianic themes, yes?

>>45:13 explicitly state that Cyrus would command the building of the city of Jerusalem. Therefore, anyone who says that Cyrus' decree did not command the building of Jerusalem (the primary justification for starting the 70 weeks with Artaxerxes' 20th year) is simply wrong.<<

Is 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, [even] my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

Is 45:13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

Did you notice that the prior verses re "Cyrus" speaks in the first person?--whereas, verse 13 speak in the second person?--and its antecedent is "man" of verse 12?--and not "Cyrus". (read my above re the written Hebrew...)

Otherwise, should the Hebrew Kow Resh in the above mentioned texts have actually been meant to be translated as Kiros/Cyrus, and the .Orgist believes that the relevant texts prophesy Kiros/Cyrus' "building of Jerusalem" -- then, ought he or she to have dated the terminus a quo for Daniel 9:25 at the time that Cyrus issued his decree re the Temple -- that is, ca 539/538 BC -- for that [building of City Jerusalem] is what Daniel 9:25 requires.

One is unable, for the reason that the actual decree of Cyrus neglected to mention Jerusalem the City proper? It appears rather hubristice and outrageous to me that a composite 'Tripartite decree' encompassing a period of near a hundred years is proffered -- rather than one which actually met the requirements (of ch 9 vs 25) and given to Nehemiah in 445/44 BC.