Just what are we to overcome?

[JoeMo]

Quote by Gibs:

"Yes there is something for each to do and it is not works but surrender, broken of our will, pride, spirit and self that He is the total master of our life."

I think I agree with that - who'd of thunk?. We do need to put aside self-will, self-pride, and self-spirit, and "self". Once we quit believing in ourselves and our own ability to overcome, and embrace Christ's victory and righteousness as our own - believing that he is the Author and Finisher of our faith - we are adopted members of the Family.

Once we are in the Family, we are no longer servants, but adopted as sons; and joint heirs with our BIg Brother and our King Jesus. Like earthly sons, we might "break" the Father's rules sometimes; but hey - we're sons! The Father loves us unconditionally; and gladly forgives us. In fact, I think He already forgave us when Jesus died for us; and when we fully understand and embrace that, we are truly saved. He no longer holds our sins against us! That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Isn't God grand?

Blessings,

JoeMo

[Gibs]

JoeMoe, But I'm sorry to have to tell you it is not that way, that is the story propagated by false teachers for itching ears that don't want to do anything at all.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

After saying that Paul states,

2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

Then Ellen speaks up,

"We have no hesitancy in telling you that in order to obtain the immortal inheritance and the eternal substance, you must be overcomers in this probationary life. Everything that blots and stains the soul must be removed, must be cleansed from the heart. We must know what it means to be a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruptions that are in the world through lust. Are you willing to wage war against the lusts of the flesh? Are you ready to battle against the enemy of God and man? Satan is determined to enslave every soul if he can; for he is playing a desperate game to win the souls of men from Christ and eternal life. Will you permit him to steal from you the graces of the Spirit of God, and plant in you his own corrupt nature? or will you accept the great provision of salvation, and through the merits of the Infinite Sacrifice made in your behalf, become a partaker of the divine nature? God has given his only-begotten Son, that through his shame, suffering, and death, you might have glory, honor, and immortality. Are you not willing to lay hold on the gracious hope set before you in the gospel? Is it humiliating to seek to win a crown of immortal glory?" {ST, June 15, 1891 par. 4}

What the modern church is holding as the saving gospel is not it at all. It does not teach people how to be victorious over sin and all who will, will get into His Kingdom. Those who don't will be raised in the second resurrection.

Why? Because you will be raised as when you died, a commiting sin sinner or one who has overcome it.

You must know the truth of it and you just got it. It will not be any other way. Sorry my way is so blunt, but I am not a prolific explainer or writer.

Cease holding to that fable of men, listen to the Holy Word of Him who made the one and only narrow way that FEW will find and follow.

Pick up His Divine Nature and you have the Way in you to empower you over all your shortcomings IF YOU WILL, but it is up to you, will you SURRENDER ALL AND BE BROKEN?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

Thanks JoeMoe, That's exactly the way it is. Thanks for sharing with us.

I feel so bad for those who don't get it and feel that they can somehow work their way to Heaven. It just ain't goin' to happen.

[JoeMo]

Quoted by Gibs:

2Ti 4:3-4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

I guess my question is what is "sound doctrine" - salvation based solely on the works of Jesus, or salvation based on our works? What is "truth" - that our righteousness is as filthy rags and only our trust in the righteousness of Jesus can bring us salvation (true humility), or that our good works can please the Father enough for us to earn our salvation(pride)? In both questions, I'll choose answer number one. Even if we say that we are saved by our works empowered by God's grace, we are saying that our salvation is based on our works! We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. Period. I have to agree with Woody; that being saved by our works (with or without grace) just ain't gonna happen.

No need to quote Romans 6 to me again - I understand what it says. I believe in overcoming sin as a BENEFIT of salvation; not a REQUIREMENT.

BTW, quoting EGW to me is usually meaningless. I don't believe she was infallible any more than I believe the Pope is infallible. That probably makes me a "Badventist".

I don't expect to "convince" anyone that I'm right and they are wrong. I can only testify to my own experience. I have a closer communion with God now (more of my prayers are answered and I see more "miracles") than I did when I was trying to "earn" my salvation. Salvation is a gift from God. As soon as we try to earn our salvation, it ceases to be a gift; and becomes a wage we expect in return for our works.

Be blessed!

[Gibs]

Well JoeMoe, Woody, I'll make a parable.

You are caught out on a rock on a raging rising rapidly river and I have a crane that I have tethered to a bridge just long enough to reach from your saving rock perch to the shore, and place it down for you to get to the safe shore. But you say no!, I am saved from the torrents of the river right here. Well I plead with you many minutes and you will not get on the bridge and get to the safe shore. Twenty seconds on the bridge and you would be safe. You yell get the bridge out of my face and all at once the raging water tumbles your safe haven rock and you are gone.

Jesus is the one extending to you that bridge to escape and power to do it. You have no excuse and no one does. That Bridge is "His Divine Nature" in you and you must reach out and take it, it doesn't cost you no works, it is He that works in you but you must let him in and cooperate to overcome the river of evil we are in.

You die continuing in sin and you will be resurrected in the second resurrection.

You may escape that in this life and He will give you the Power, it is your choice.

Fall on Him and be broken, allow Him to be the Total Master in you and He will take up His abode in you, but not until you are broken.

Look at it this way. You must know that had Jesus taken any power than we can have Satan would have had a legitimate complaint. Satan tried to get Him to use the Deity vested in Him, but Jesus did not. If He had of reached within and did so the plan of salvation would have been lost.

His Divine Nature in you is the same power He had to overcome the Devil and all.

No! We have no excuse to go and keep continuing in sim! None! You really do have an advantage over what Jesus had as now the evil angels and Satan can see Jesus dwelling in you and know it is useless to overcome you as they have been soundly defeated by Him.

You will not have any excuse to Him I am very, very sure.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

You're right - Jesus is the "crane" that saves me. If I say "no thanks - I can work this out by myself", I'm doomed.

If I slip and fall again sometime in the future, the "crane" will still be there. In fact, it's already got me "hooked" 24/7! But hey - that's just me. My revelation may not be your revelation. We both agree - God is good!

Be Blessed,

JoeMo

[Gibs]

Yes His "crane" will save you from continuing in sin that you may be saved! Why refuse it?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

JoeMo, the doctrine of a sin-pardoning Saviour is the hope of the church. For who could be saved if that was not so? But the aim of the Gospel of Christ is that we shall attain to Christian perfection. This is clearly taught in the Bible in many places and also in the SoP. That's all we are saying. Truly the Lord has made the way to Christian perfection in Christ plain and clear. It is just as simple as ABC.

sky

[JoeMo]

If we are "in Christ", aren't we already perfect in His eyes? I vote YES!

[Gibs]

Yes "IF" we are in Christ. To know Him is to Love Him and "IF" we Truly Love Him we do His entire will. It is proven when we keep His Commandments as they are our love to do them. Those commandments are the expression of our love also as it is His.

It is TRUE LOVE that fulfills them and obedience is now natural.

Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Yes "IF" we are in Christ. To know Him is to Love Him and "IF" we Truly Love Him we do His entire will.

Okay then, Christ lived a life that was entirely according to His Father's will. Live His life!

“The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.” Those who follow him must share his poverty. “If any man will come after me,” he declares, “let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.” “So shall ye be my disciples.” [RH 7-4-1912]

If you lived Christ's life of self-denial then, in this world, you would be without. You would never think of yourself, but others. No time would be spend on your own personal ambition because that's lust & coveting.

[Robert]

Here's commandment keeping:

Paul states that "the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'"

Please note that the law doesn't require self-love, you already love yourself. The law requires that you take that love of self and redirect it to your neighbors, even you enemies. Hence your ambition in life is to live to serve them. As EGW states,

You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth. [DA 439]

If you aren't doing this you are not living the Father's will. You are falling short of God's love and therefore you are a law breaker.

[skyblue888]

In other words, "Without love, such love as dwelt in the heart of Christ, we can never be numbered with the family of Heaven." C.O.L.159.

This statement in itself shows that we need to have this love shed abroad in our hearts by faith in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour and this is exactly the case as Rom.5:5 says, "The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which is given unto us."

If that love is in our hearts, it is the same love that was in the heart of Christ and it will produce in us the same character and accomplish the same works as it did in Him.

This is what the Lord has been waiting to see in His people. When that love dwells in His people, He will be able to finish the work and cut it short in righteousness for righteousness is love and love is the light and the life of God. See Rom.9:28; M.B.18

sky

[Samie]

If we are "in Christ", aren't we already perfect in His eyes? I vote YES!

[skyblue888]

So many discordant voices but it is to be expected for the Lord is about to do a work upon the earth that will make the ears tingle.

sky

[Samie]

So many discordant voices but it is to be expected for the Lord is about to do a work upon the earth that will make the ears tingle.

sky

[skyblue888]

The SoP teaches exactly that. It is a teacher of righteouness, magnifying the Word and making it honorable.

sky

[cheddar]

The SoP teaches exactly that. It is a teacher of righteouness, magnifying the Word and making it honorable.

sky

The SoP prior to 1888 was a teacher of legalism. I can't count the number of times EGW used the words - work, effort and 'we must do'. I like the books she wrote at the end of her life not the beginning.

[Gibs]

I do not believe that EGW ever taught legalism. Today what is called legalism is just a ploy to stay in extreme liberalism.

We are ever to know we are to be overcomers and she taught that solidly all her life. How we are to come about that is not in any way "legalism". The "new age theology" that has come in of being saved in sin instead of being saved from sin is a false gospel that is not the gospel of the kingdom as it will get noone into the kingdom.

"Christ in you the hope of Glory" is your hope and empowering to walk that narrow way and overcome as He overcome. A non overcomer will take part in the second death!,

Jesus said it, I BELIEVE IT!

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[cheddar]

You wouldn’t, especially since you’ve bought into the works gospel hook, line and sinker.

Every Christian I’ve ever known or read about has gone thru a growing cycle. Why wouldn’t EGW be any different? Young christians are usually very legalistic and after time finally understand that salvation cannot be bought or worked for and become more faith minded.

You have such a shallow view of sin and forgiveness. It goes a lot deeper that my good deeds out weighing my bad deeds. You’re the one spewing out a false legalistic gospel.

Salvation is a FREE gift. What part of free don’t you understand?

[JoeMo]

Everyone on here appear to be good people. We all love God, love our faith, and are loyal to our spiritual commitment. Let me ask a few questions:

Were your earthly fathers good supportive people? (In general, I assume the answer to be "Yes"; although I'm sure there are some exceptions.).

Did you ever stray from your father's rules and expectations? (I assume the answer is yes.)

Did your father ever discipline you for it? (Again, I assume the answer is yes)

Did he kick you out of the family for straying from his rules and expectations? (For the most part, I assume the answer is no.)

When you sought his forgiveness, did he forgive you - even if it was the 3rd or 10th time you were "busted"? (I assume that, in general, the answer is yes.)

I also assume that none of our earthly father's was perfect (mine wasn't); yet, for the most part, he loved us unconditionally. Mine did - and I wasn't exactly a model son from age 18 - 25.

Now, think of your heavenly Father - who is good and perfect and more loving than is humanly possible. Imagine the best, most ideal earthly father you can possibly imagine in your wildest dreams. Our heavenly Father is WAY better than that!Because of our brokenness and imperfection, it is impossible to even imagine how awesome our heavenly Father is - His love, mercy, and kindness exceed our wildest imagination!

In most families, the reason kids are "out of the family" is because, in their rebellion against authority, they remove themselves. I personally have a son who has done so. My heart aches for him to return - bad habits and all - just so we can be a family again! How much more so does our heavenly Father want His rebellious children to return to the family - bad habits and all! I firmly believe that, if we love our Heavenly Father and don't willfully and spitefully leave the Family, He will never kick us out. Even if we do leave - as did the prodigal son - He will gladly take us back - bad habits and all - if we return Home. Once we return home, He will help and encourage us to be sons and daughter He can be proud of. All we have to do is overcome our willful self-pride, love Him back, and participate in the Family. I don't want a Father I have to constantly be afraid of. I don't want to be in a Family where love is conditional. I want to be in One that is close, loving and secure. That's how I think my heavenly Father's family is. And I have One awesome big Brother who is "chomping at the bit" to help me along the way; and show me how to trust in and please my Daddy!

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

The SoP teaches exactly that. It is a teacher of righteouness, magnifying the Word and making it honorable.

sky

Prior to 1888 the SoP was a teacher of legalism. I can't count the number of times EGW used the words - work, effort and 'we must do'. I like the books she wrote at the end of her life not the beginning.

Not just prior to 1888 but after as well. Simply because in her writings, Mrs. White presents both the old covenant terms and the new covenant terms, whether before or after 1888.

The old covenant plays an important part in the plan of salvation. For example, take the children of Israel at Sinai. After the law was spoken, they said: "All that the Lord has said,we will do." But they never did it. They were filled with good intentions and put forth every effort to obey that law but they were doomed to fail from the word go because under those terms it is covenant with death. But it does serve its purpose which is to show us that the letter of the law kills when we try to obey it through our own best efforts. 2 Cor.3:5-7.

In other words, the purpose of the old covenant teaches us that it is not enough to be convinced that the moral law of ten commandments is good and holy and just and that we must obey it. This covenant makes us like the Pharisees of old. It is a covenant with death. "The Letter kills." Its purpose is to lead us to Christ that we may receive the Spirit of the law by which alone the law can be fulfilled. In the new covenant the ten commandments become "the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus." Rom.8:2.

Thus, in the new covenant every command is a promise. The sinner comes to God just as he is, sinful, helpless, dependent, trusting wholly in the merits of Christ's sacrifice for his acceptance with God. Then every commandment of the law becomes the voice of God from Heaven speaking to his soul in promise. Thus he enters into rest. He ceases from his own efforts to obey the law. Now the Spirit of Christ works in him both to will and to do His good pleasure, fulfilling every jot and tittle of the law. This is what it means to be clothed with the robe of Christ's righteousness which accomplishes everything.

Abraham experienced the new covenant and all who exercise this faith which is the only true faith are His descendants, not according to the flesh, for the flesh profits nothing, but according to the promise.

So in the Bible as well as in the SoP we come across the terms of the old covenant and that of the new. It is for us to discern which is spoken of.

sky

[skyblue888]

At Sinai, the Jews heard the voice of God as He spoke the ten commandments. They were to trust in the merits of a Saviour to come and to receive the ten commandments as the voice of God from Heaven speaking to the soul in promise. But they didn't. They clung to the letter of the law. They still do today.

What about us?

Are we trusting in the all-sufficient merits of a Saviour who has already come and who is pleading them before the Father in our behalf and are we receiving the ten commandments as His voice from Heaven speaking to the soul in promise?

sky

"The law of ten precepts of the greatest love ever presented to man is the voice of God from Heaven speaking to the soul in promise." EGW B.C. Vol.1,1005.

In other words: "The words I SPEAK unto you, they are Spirit and they are Life." John 6:63.

[Gibs]

You wouldn’t, especially since you’ve bought into the works gospel hook, line and sinker.

Every Christian I’ve ever known or read about has gone thru a growing cycle. Why wouldn’t EGW be any different? Young christians are usually very legalistic and after time finally understand that salvation cannot be bought or worked for and become more faith minded.

You have such a shallow view of sin and forgiveness. It goes a lot deeper that my good deeds out weighing my bad deeds. You’re the one spewing out a false legalistic gospel.

Salvation is a FREE gift. What part of free don’t you understand?

It sure is free, but you must appropriate what He gives you to meet His requirements. He wasn't just whistling Dixie when He stated, Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Now if you truly have love, you keep them all, you prove you do not if you are not keeping them and find they are galling to you. If you truly love Him, then those commandments are your love to do as is His.

You will not be saved while still committing sin. Your master is the devil and you prove it by doing his will over the one you claim you love and prove you don't love Him but love sin more.

I have no hesitancy in telling you this as you are given every advantage to do it as He did. Hear EGW, or is her council here legalistic.

We have no hesitancy in telling you that in order to obtain the immortal inheritance and the eternal substance, you must be overcomers in this probationary life. Everything that blots and stains the soul must be removed, must be cleansed from the heart. We must know what it means to be a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruptions that are in the world through lust. Are you willing to wage war against the lusts of the flesh? Are you ready to battle against the enemy of God and man? Satan is determined to enslave every soul if he can; for he is playing a desperate game to win the souls of men from Christ and eternal life. Will you permit him to steal from you the graces of the Spirit of God, and plant in you his own corrupt nature? or will you accept the great provision of salvation, and through the merits of the Infinite Sacrifice made in your behalf, become a partaker of the divine nature? God has given His only-begotten Son, that through His shame, suffering, and death, you might have glory, honor, and immortality.--Signs of the Times, June 15, 1891. {TDG 175.2}

Still a legalist in mid 1891, you better start a thinking Bros. Time is too short to be fooling around standing with the Devil that it is impossible to obey God. Of yourself, yes, but Christ in You and all things are possible but you must fall on Him and be broken and few will do it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gail]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

The SoP teaches exactly that. It is a teacher of righteouness, magnifying the Word and making it honorable.

The SoP prior to 1888 was a teacher of legalism. I can't count the number of times EGW used the words - work, effort and 'we must do'. I like the books she wrote at the end of her life not the beginning.

Something else to consider-

In EGW's day, people generally had a sense of honorable living and the Biblical definition of right and wrong. Living took a certain portion of human effort and that was accepted as the norm. Self-denial and sacrifice was accepted as a virtue. If you can get a hold of stories for children around the turn of the 19th century you'll see quickly that nobility in character was instilled at an early age.

Not so much today Stories of sacrifice for another or virtuous living often make the news!

My point- what we see as a philosophy laced with legalism may not have been considered such back then.

But, yes, I do also REALLY like her later work, too. :)