Just what are we to overcome?

June 19, 2012

If one ever attained perfection this side of glorification, then that person could truthfully say that he is without sin.

Rather, God's word tells us that a person claiming to be without sin, is telling a lie. Why would it be a lie for a sinless person to say that he is without sin? --- Simply, because he is not telling the truth.

Rather, the truth is that he is a sinner, but if he confesses his sin, God is faithful and just to forgive him his sins, and cleanse him from all unrighteousness.

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In regards to the Passage in Hebrews, remember the distinction between sanctification and justification -- this was one of the issues of the reformation.

We have been set apart for God, and are holy in His sight -- justified.

Remember that Paul in Romans tells us that 'blessed is the man whom the Lord does not impute his sin'? God justifies the ungodly. It is in this sense that we are holy:

However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

But people are counted as righteous, not because of their work, but because of their faith in God who forgives sinners.

And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

However, to someone who does not work, but simply believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

But to the one who does not labor, but believes only in The One who justifies sinners, is his faith accounted for righteousness.

However, when people don't work but believe God, the one who approves ungodly people, their faith is regarded as God's approval.

But to him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

American King James Version

But to him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

American Standard Version

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.

Douay-Rheims Bible

But to him that worketh not, yet believeth in him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reputed to justice, according to the purpose of the grace of God.

Darby Bible Translation

but to him who does not work, but believes on him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.

English Revised Version

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.

Webster's Bible Translation

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Weymouth New Testament

whereas in the case of a man who pleads no actions of his own, but simply believes in Him who declares the ungodly free from guilt, his faith is placed to his credit as righteousness.

World English Bible

But to him who doesn't work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.

Young's Literal Translation

and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned -- to righteousness:

Blessed is the man, whom the Lord does not impute sin:

Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

Yes, what joy for those whose record the LORD has cleared of sin."

blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

"BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

What about Hebrews:

For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

We see then, that in one sense we have been made perfect by His sacrifice. In another sense, we are still being made holy, are sanctified -- set apart for Him.

The term, 'are sanctified', speaks of the perfect present tense of believers, and is the life of all believers. It is in contrast to the past perfect reality of 'having been made perfect'. For those who are not as familiar with greek grammar, the NIV expresses it the easiest to understand:

because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

There are those who don't like the NIV though, because it contradicts their preconceived beliefs. However, the Greek confirms the reading. Nevertheless, it is agreed that what makes us perfect, is the sacrifice of Christ, and that alone. How does Christ's righteousness make us perfect?

Romans 5:

Therefore, having been justified by faith, [a] we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only this, but [c]we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; [d]though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified [e] by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved [f] by His life. 11 And not only this, [g]but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 for [h]until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

15 But [j]the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression [k]resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions [l]resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

18 So then as through one transgression [m]there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness [n]there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20 [o] The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

We see then, that by His death, or if we want to use the words of Hebrews, by His sacrifice, we are righteous, or we have been made perfect. How is this justification received? Verse 1 -- we are justified by faith.

Lest I be charged with eisegesis, remember the context of Hebrews. The writer is contrasting the Old Covenant ritual sacrifices which symbolised their atonement for sin, with the one perfect sacrifice of Christ. The repititive nature of those sacrifices was to show that they were unable to atone for sin. The blood of bulls and goats was worthless. Rather, they pointed to the promised Messiah, who would take away the sins of the world. Christ did this once and for all, in His sacrifice on the cross. Therefore, by that one sacrifice, we have been made perfect. The context of 'perfection' here, is in the context of the atonement, and peace with God. We have peace with God, the God who justifies the ungodly, through the perfect sacrifice of His Son.

Do we agree that Paul considered himself one of these persons who has been made perfect by the sacrifice of Christ? If so, then the fact that Paul continued to sin, as is evidenced in Romans 7, is proof positive that the sinner who has been made perfect by Christ's sacrifice, by the God who justifies the ungldoy, the One who does not impute sin, continues to struggle with sin in this life.

Paul rejoiced at having received the justification and these atoning benefits of the sacrifice of Christ, even though he continued to struggle with sin. In this regard, he did not lie by telling us that he was sinless. Rather, he told us the truth, that he was still a sinner, but a sinner saved by grace.

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How is it though, that there some who are called holy and righteous?

Interestingly, God not only calls our Old Testament believers righteous, but He also calls Old Testament sinful nations as holy:

I have commanded my holy ones; I have summoned my warriors to carry out my wrath--those who rejoice in my triumph.

I, the LORD, have dedicated these soldiers for this task. Yes, I have called mighty warriors to express my anger, and they will rejoice when I am exalted."

I myself have commanded my consecrated ones, and have summoned my mighty men to execute my anger, my proudly exulting ones.

I have commanded My consecrated ones, I have even called My mighty warriors, My proudly exulting ones, To execute My anger.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)

I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness.

Who is it that God is calling sanctified, consecrated, holy? It is the Medes and Persians.

We must remember then, that we must learn from the context, what God means when He uses the term, 'righteous', holy', sanctified'. If we ignore the context, then we will engage in eisegesis.

Let us consider Job and Noah:

Noah -- Genesis 6:9

Job -- Job 1:1

The Hebrew terms used in these passages do not mean sinlessness. Rather, the Hebrew word is 'tarn', which refers to completeness, not sinless perfection. When applied to man, it would refer to a complete man with moral integrity (see Brown, Driver, Briggs Hebrew Lexicon for details). Also, we see that Noah offered sacrifices (Genesis 8:20) as did Job, for it was his “regular custom” (Job 1:5). Why would these men sacrifice if they did not know of their own sin?

Infact, if we allow us to learn what the meanings of the terms are from Scripture, and not import our ideas upon Scripture, we can learn a lot, and not force the Bible to contradict itself. The term, 'tarn', which is translated 'perfect', does not denote a state of sinless perfection. Infact, nowhere in the Bible does the word refer to a man's sinless perfection. What reason therefore, is to think that it means this in regards to Noah and Job? Let us not read into the text, anything which is not taught therein. Furthermore, these men of God made sacrifices to God. Moreover, Job was presumptuous in God's sight -- seeking an audience from the Almighty:

In Job 3, he curses the day he was born, instead of giving thanks to the Almighty.

In Job 10, he despairs.

In Job 14, he refers to his sin and iniquity:

13 “Oh that You would hide me in [j]Sheol,

That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You,

That You would set a limit for me and remember me!

14 “If a man dies, will he live again?

All the days of my struggle I will wait

Until my change comes.

15 “You will call, and I will answer You;

You will long for the work of Your hands.

16 “For now You number my steps,

You do not observe my sin.

17 “My transgression is sealed up in a bag,

And You [k]wrap up my iniquity.

In Job 23, he wants to argue with God.

In Job 42, after God rebukes Job, he repents:

Therefore I retract,

And I repent in dust and ashes.”

Also, Noah sinned by getting drunk and being immodest in nudity.

Genesis 9:

20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:

21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

-----------------------------

Therefore, we can believe with Paul, that there is none that is righteous, we can agree with John that every man who claims to be without sin, is a liar.

Romans 3:10:

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

kind regards

ThoroughlyFurnished.blogspot.com

June 19, 2012

...
Samie,

The NIV I believe is misleading, take a scrutiny of the KJV version,

...

June 19, 2012

Samie, the one who belong to Christ, have already overcome, ie., are already overcomers:

1 John 5:4

For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world-- our faith.

Through faith in Him, He has overcome death and hell for us.

You yourself said that those who have faith in Him, are already made perfect through His sacrifice. It is Christ's work which makes us presentable to the Father, not our work of overcoming.

1 John 4:4

You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.

Remember, we have already been made clean through His word, and those the vinedresser prunes will bear good fruit.

kind regards

ThoroughlyFurnished.blogspot.com

June 19, 2012

Samie, the one who belong to Christ, have already overcome, ie., are already overcomers:

1 John 5:4

For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world-- our faith.

...

The verse you quoted does not say what you are saying. Because if it does then you were already an overcomer before you belong to Christ.

Can you become an overcomer, that is win a fight, without even fighting? You know, you can't. Overcoming the world means there is a battle to be fought and won. This is why, only those who have overcome will not be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5).

June 19, 2012

If there is a teaching that the enemy hates it is the teaching that sin can be perfectly overcome in this life as Jesus overcame it. In other words, according to him, it is impossible to reproduce the image of Jesus in this world. Satan knows that as soon as God has a people on the face of this earth, from all nations, who are overcoming as Jesus overcame, it will be the end of the great controversy as far as this world is concerned and he will be the loser.

For the holy angels and the other worlds the great controversy ended at the cross but for humankind the controversy will not end until God through the 144,000 (symbolic number) shall prove that it is possible, in this life, through God's great grace (Acts 4:33), which is exceedingly abundant with faith and love that are in Christ Jesus, (1 Tim.1:14) to overcome as He overcame.

God will have such a people but in the meantime Satan is fighting tooth and nail to prevent this from happening and sadly he has been successful but we have the sure Word of prophecy which declares that God will have such a people before probation closes.

"In Christ dwelt on the fullness of the Godhead bodily. This is why, although He was tempted in all points like as we are, he stood before the world, from His first entrance into it, untainted by corruption, though surrounded by it. Are we not also to become partakers of that fullness, and is it not thus and thus only that we can overcome as He overcame?" EGW, 7 B.C.907.

I understand that during the latter rain and loud cry God's faithful people will grow up into Christ by partaking of that fullness (Eph.3:19; 5:18; 1 T 353) and thus they will become more than conquerors. (Rom.8:37) They will overcome as Jesus overcame and thus they will be strengthened to pass the great final test (death decree) and be prepared to go through the time of Jacob's trouble and be translated without seeing death. They could not be translated without seeing death unless they were without fault before God! (Rev.14:5)

During the latter rain and loud cry God's faithful people may make mistakes and even fall (T.M.300 bottom of page) but Jesus will still be in the sanctuary above to receive their confessions but at the close of probation they will receive the final seal and they will be strengthened to live without fault during the time of Jacob's trouble as they will be without an Intercessor for the ministry of Christ in the sanctuary above will have come to an end.

This, I believe, is the unadulterated advent message.

The 144,000 will constitute the remnant people.

sky

June 19, 2012

If there is a teaching that the enemy hates it is the teaching that sin can be perfectly overcome in this life as Jesus overcame it. In other words, according to him, it is impossible to reproduce the image of Jesus in this world. Satan knows that as soon as God has a people on the face of this earth, from all nations, who are overcoming as Jesus overcame, it will be the end of the great controversy as far as this world is concerned and he will be the loser.

For the holy angels and the other worlds the great controversy ended at the cross but for humankind the controversy will not end until God through the 144,000 (symbolic number) shall prove that it is possible, in this life, through God's great grace (Acts 4:33), which is exceedingly abundant with faith and love that are in Christ Jesus, (1 Tim.1:14) to overcome as He overcame.

God will have such a people but in the meantime Satan is fighting tooth and nail to prevent this from happening and sadly he has been successful but we have the sure Word of prophecy which declares that God will have such a people before probation closes.

"In Christ dwelt on the fullness of the Godhead bodily. This is why, although He was tempted in all points like as we are, he stood before the world, from His first entrance into it, untainted by corruption, though surrounded by it. Are we not also to become partakers of that fullness, and is it not thus and thus only that we can overcome as He overcame?" EGW, 7 B.C.907.

I understand that during the latter rain and loud cry God's faithful people will grow up into Christ by partaking of that fullness (Eph.3:19; 5:18; 1 T 353) and thus they will become more than conquerors. (Rom.8:37) They will overcome as Jesus overcame and thus they will be strengthened to pass the great final test (death decree) and be prepared to go through the time of Jacob's trouble and be translated without seeing death. They could not be translated without seeing death unless they were without fault before God! (Rev.14:5)

During the latter rain and loud cry God's faithful people may make mistakes and even fall (T.M.300 bottom of page) but Jesus will still be in the sanctuary above to receive their confessions but at the close of probation they will receive the final seal and they will be strengthened to live without fault during the time of Jacob's trouble as they will be without an Intercessor for the ministry of Christ in the sanctuary above will have come to an end.

This, I believe, is the unadulterated advent message.

The 144,000 will constitute the remnant people.

sky

And let us not forget that none can partake of the latter rain unless they have received the former rain which means that none will receive the latter rain unless they are now living up to the light that they have.

"He will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain." Jer.5:24; Joel 2:23.

"The latter rain, ripening earth's harvest, represents the spiritual grace that prepares the church for the coming of the Son of man. But unless the former rain has fallen, there will be no life; the green blade will not spring up. Unless the early showers have done their work, the latter rain can bring no seed to perfection...

There is to be 'first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the earn.' There must be a constant development of Christian virtue, a constant advancement in Christian experience. This we should seek with intensity of desire, that we may adorn the doctrine of Christ our Saviour...

Many have in a great measure failed to receive the former rain. They have not obtained all the benefits that God has thus provided for them. They expect that the lack will be supplied by the latter rain. When the richest abundance of grace shall be bestowed, they intend to open their hearts to receive it. They are making a terrible mistake. The work that God has begun in the human heart in giving His light and knowledge must be continually going forward. Every individual must realize his own necessity. The heart must be emptied of every defilement and cleansed for the indwelling of the Spirit...

Only those who are living up to the light they have will receive greater light. Unless we are daily advancing in the exemplification of the active Christian virtues, we shall not recognize the manifestations of the Holy Spirit in the latter rain. It may be falling on hearts all around us, but we shall not discern or receive it." T.M.506-7.

sky

June 19, 2012

Samie,

Thank you so much for those scriptures stating that we are already sanctified - passive recipients of sanctification through Christ's sacrifice. Your personal commentary was well thought out, as well. I was blessed - well done! I have often struggled with understanding that. You greatly helped my understanding. I may actually use those passages to stimulate discussion in a Sabbath School class that I teach.

Be Blessed,

JoeMo

June 19, 2012

Already sanctified!!!

JoeMo, If you believe that we are already sanctified, it would be like those who believe in once saved, always saved.

Even then we would not be sanctified because the doctrine of once saved always saved means that we are saved in sin and that can never be.

There are too many people in adventism today who have lost sight of the pure, unadulterated message of the third angel.

sky

June 19, 2012

Yes, I thought so, too, that there are a couple of senses of sanctification in the Bible- that of being sanctified and that of already been sanctified (ongoing process).

Hebrews 10:10 and 14 both use the sense of having been sanctified by Jesus' death on the cross. There is also the verse that talks about the unbelieving husband being sanctified by the believing wife.

The word might be bigger than we give it credit for. Not negating what is being said here on either side of the discussion. What I'm saying is that it may incorporate both views presented.

June 19, 2012

Yes, I thought so, too, that there are a couple of senses of sanctification in the Bible- that of being sanctified and that of already been sanctified (ongoing process).

Hebrews 10:10 and 14 both use the sense of having been sanctified by Jesus' death on the cross. There is also the verse that talks about the unbelieving husband being sanctified by the believing wife.

The word might be bigger than we give it credit for. Not negating what is being said here on either side of the discussion. What I'm saying is that it may incorporate both views presented.

Nice way to pull it all together Gail. And I agree.

June 19, 2012

If Woody agrees with you Gail, I hear all kinds of warming bells.

said with no offense intended hehe

sky

June 19, 2012

LOL

June 19, 2012

Gail,

In answer to those santified by Jesus on the cross and by the believing wife it all happens by the awakening of why did Jesus die, it brought the onlooker to repentance and conversion. The believing wife by her righteous example awakened the unbelieving husband to him repenting and conversion.

If that isn't the case Jesus is crossing himself when he states,

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

In actuality those then that don't overcome WILL be hurt of the second death.

We must get away from this false idea that there is nothing for a man to do for his salvation.

Man must put his miniscule shoulder to the wheel with His, Jesus's great indwelling shoulder and nothing is impossible, even our overcoming our sinnings.

To deny that is to deny Him the power in you to be the victorious overcomer He requires!

Pick up your faith on this and know you can with Him to power you. As this following verse states,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

June 19, 2012

Just being diplomatic... but seriously I have thought about this and understand at this point that there's a bigger understanding of sanctified than Jesus' holiness being worked out in us. Just like many Biblical themes have become larger the more I look into them.

To God's glory- they all leave me in awe something fierce and draw me to want to reach out and know more!

June 19, 2012

LOL

lol

June 19, 2012

"That He may establish the second, by which we are sanctified, through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all... bor by one offering He has perfected for ever them that are sanctified..." Heb.10:10,12.

This is simply telling us that all, from Adam to the last believer upon the earth, who have and are trusting in the merits of Christ's sacrifice for their acceptance with God are both justified and sanctified.

"The sinner is justified through the merits of Jesus." EGW

"We are to be transformed through the merits of Jesus." EGW

The sinner must therefore appropriate the merits of Jesus to himself by faith, by laying hold upon them, by claiming them continually.

The death of Christ upon the cross ratified the Everlasting Covenant that God the Father had made with His Son, that He would accept all who would come to Him trusting wholly in the merits of the crucified and risen Saviour.

In other words, the sinner must continually look to Christ and accept His merits which it is his privilege to claim on a daily basis if he is to be justified and sanctified at all for the intercession of Christ in the sanctuary above is that of pleading His divine merits before the Father in our behalf, claiming the gift of the Spirit that He may pour it upon us.

Right?

sky

June 19, 2012

I don't believe it ALL happened at the cross. Romans 5 says that if we are saved by his death we are MUCH MORE by His life. I believe in overcoming, too, and that it will be complete and perfect. What perfection MEANS is for God to decide.

What it means to me is that salvation is another one of those concepts that is way too big for me to grasp fully, its potential and possibilities.

By resting in His merits, that is where the power comes from. Not saying it's not hard. Some of us don't like to rest or surrender or grasp by faith just what He's done.

There is some wrestling to be done. Our prayer closet is a good place for wrestling. There are times when we have a cup that we would rather God take away, like Jesus did in Gethsemane. But in the end, like Jacob, we simply hang on and say, "I'm not moving until You bless me."

June 19, 2012

Okay I understand what you are saying Gail. But what if Jesus had not come out of the grave? He had to be raised from the grave and ascend up on High to plead the merits of His sacricife before the Father in our behalf or even His death upon the cross would have been to no avail.

Agree?

sky :)

June 19, 2012

Although none of us can claim a sinless state, what we do with our sins (and temptations for that matter) makes the difference.

When you slip, do you look for the hand that will lift you back up? Are you like the child that falls and looks around for its father to help you?

I still think that if your focus is on your or others' sins or performance, you're not looking up. Do your self reflection with He who knows your insides, your heart. When you fall and you become aware of it, lift UP your sight.

June 19, 2012

Okay I understand what you are saying Gail. But what if Jesus had not come out of the grave? He had to be raised from the grave and ascend up on High to plead the merits of His sacricife before the Father in our behalf or even His death upon the cross would have been to no avail.

Agree?

sky

Yep. Salvation is that, too, because our hope is also in His resurrection, too. Without that we are men most miserable.

June 19, 2012

Okay

But I will dare say that if after His resurrection He had ascended up on High but refused to plead the merits of His sacrifice in our behalf, there still would be no hope for anyone. But we know that ever since He ascended up on High He faithfully has been pleading His merits in our behalf and even then there is still no hope for us unless we daily present our helpless case before God trusting wholly in the merits of Christ's shed blood.

sky

June 19, 2012

Yes- it takes all of what He did and it takes a person to accept it. Not just by lip service by it has to be believed and accepted into the heart.

Some know their helplessness more than others. Sometimes I think that those who have not known utter depravity would have a harder time discerning their need. But it is by beholding that we become changed. That, and claiming Christ's merits for US personally and by learning of Him in His word. There is power in all of that together.

Like I said, I see it as a package that gets better the more one gets into it.

June 19, 2012

Right on Gail.

sky :)

June 19, 2012

Right On Gail.

June 19, 2012

What I would add to the above few posts is,

It is a sad mistake to work to belittle the fact a man must take hold and do a part even though small in comparison to His indwelling in us. He must work out His Salvation with fear and trembling.

Php 2:12 ¶ Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

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