Just what are we to overcome?

[jasd]

>>Job 1:22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly<<

Well and good - that though travailing, Job did not trespass Gd. It wasn't until later that Gd was obliged to chastise him.

However, what I proffered addressed the sort of "perfection" being dialogued in the preceding texts... and, as it concerned Job particularly.

Job 2:3 ...and still he holdeth fast his integrity, ...

[Gerr]

QR frame:

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Strong's perfect #8535 - tam

1) perfect, complete

a) complete, perfect

1) one who lacks nothing in physical strength, beauty, etc

sound, wholesome

1) an ordinary, quiet sort of person

c) complete, morally innocent, having integrity

1) one who is morally and ethically pure

Notice the distinct lack of the word 'sin'? Given that -- is Gd and Satan speaking of sin per se?--or of some such as moral integrity?

That -- we are able to obtain of our own effort -- of ourselves. Sinlessness is an accrual accounted to us by Jesus Christs' sacrifice -- not by anything of our own doing.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

[Gibs]

No to all who will not see we are to overcome. The fact remains we are given the advantage to overcome as He did and no excuses will suffice. You are refusing Him, refusing to hear me isn't the big thing. You are refusing Him and should not be offering excuses. Tell them to Him and then go read His Word and you will find His answer.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

No to all who will not see we are to overcome. The fact remains we are given the advantage to overcome as He did and no excuses will suffice. You are refusing Him, refusing to hear me isn't the big thing. You are refusing Him and should not be offering excuses. Tell them to Him and then go read His Word and you will find His answer.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Refusing Him? My friend, the first and last thing I do during my waking hours is to talk to God asking Him in my life, asking Him to abide with me and I in Him, and also many times in between. And you tell me I am refusing Him? What more can I do?

[Woody]

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

No to all who will not see we are to overcome. The fact remains we are given the advantage to overcome as He did and no excuses will suffice. You are refusing Him, refusing to hear me isn't the big thing. You are refusing Him and should not be offering excuses. Tell them to Him and then go read His Word and you will find His answer.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Refusing Him? My friend, the first and last thing I do during my waking hours is to talk to God asking Him in my life, asking Him to abide with me and I in Him, and also many times in between. And you tell me I am refusing Him? What more can I do?

Yes Gerry. ANd it is truly insulting for someone to come by judging and accusing one of this charge. God works with each of us differently. To have someone make such an accusation is simply foolish.

[Gibs]

Well I can only say this Gerry, you should stop saying you can't be an overcomer when He is dwelling within you, you then are empowered to do as He did when He walked this earth. Do you deny that? I don't and won't as I know it is the absolute truth.

You are just fighting tooth and nail to oppose that fact.

Gerry that is the Way He made for us, the reason He came in a man taking no power but what He gives to us to do the same. Yes there is a requirment on our part and you know what that is I'm sure. Broken of our spirit, fully surrendered to fully be of His will, our will given completely, nothing witheld, He must be the complete master of us.

" In order to be partakers of the divine nature, we must co-operate with God. Man is no passive being, to be saved in indolence. Let no one think that men and women are going to be taken to heaven without engaging in the struggle here below. We have a battle to fight, a victory to gain. God says to us, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." How?--"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Man works, and God works. Man is called upon to strain every muscle, and to exercise every faculty, in the struggle for immortality; but it is God who supplies the efficiency." {RH, April 28, 1910 par. 3}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Another, more accurate view:

Please turn to the book of Job. I have wrestled with the book of Job for a long time. I could not see why God allowed Job to be so badly mistreated, and to go through those terrible crises, without a purpose. To me, the purpose of simply proving that he was righteous was not good enough. It did not “jive” in terms of the character of God. Then one day, I was reading The Desire of Ages, and I found a statement there — I can’t remember the reference so you’ll have to look for it — where Ellen G. White said that the history of Job reveals to us, or tells us, that all calamities come from Satan but are allowed by God for a purpose. But she did not say what purpose it was.

So the only way for me to find out was for me to read, and study, and wrestle with the book of Job. And I spent some time with it. I discovered that Job had a problem. At first it was hard for me to accept it, because it was a complete contradiction to what I had understood concerning Job, but I want to expose you to it. You don’t have to believe it, but see the conclusion that I came to. Turn to Job chapter one. In the very first verse we are given a statement concerning Job. The second half of the first verse says:

... This man [Job] was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.

Then, in verse 8, the same thing is repeated, but this time in the context of God having a dialogue with Satan. God said to Satan, “Look at my man Job. He is perfect, he is upright, he hates evil, and he fears God”:

Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

And you remember what Satan said? “Yes, he does all this because you have built a hedge. You remove the protection and you will see, give him into my hands and you will see what he will do. He will deny You, he will reject you, he will turn his back on you.” Verses 9-11:

“Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

And so God said in verse 12a,

The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”

“You can have him. All that he has is in your power. But you can’t touch him, you can touch his possessions, you can touch what he has, but you can’t touch him, you can’t kill him.”

And so the first test comes, beginning in verse 13 and onwards, there are four calamities, verses 13-18:

One day when Job’s sons and daughters were feasting and drinking wine at the oldest brother’s house, a messenger came to Job and said, “The men were plowing and the donkeys were grazing nearby, and the Sabeans attacked and carried them off. They put the servants to the sword, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, “The fire of God fell from the sky and burned up the sheep and the servants, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, “The Chaldeans formed three raiding parties and swept down on your camels and carried them off. They put the servants to the sword, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

While he was still speaking, yet another messenger came and said, “Your sons and daughters were feasting and drinking wine at the oldest brother’s house, when suddenly a mighty wind swept in from the desert and struck the four corners of the house. It collapsed on them and they are dead, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

Now the four calamities that come to Job, what did Job do, after he went through these four calamities? Job rose up, he tore his robe, which is a typical custom in those days. He shaved his head, which is a typical sign of sorrow. He fell down upon the ground and worshipped and spoke (Verses 20-22):

At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship and said: “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked I will depart. The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; may the name of the Lord be praised.”

Then, in verse 22:

In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.

He did not turn his back to God. Now Job was a righteous person. Here is my question: was his righteousness the righteousness of works or was his righteousness the righteousness of faith? Well, let’s study it, and we will see the end result. I’m using Job because you will see a very close similarity to the Laodicean message.

God and Satan had a second dialogue in chapter two. Verse 3:

Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”

And Satan said, “Give me him — not his property or his belongings or his children — but I want him in my hands, let me touch him, and you will notice what he will do.” Verses 4-5:

“Skin for skin!” Satan replied. “A man will give all he has for his own life. But stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

And in verse 6 of chapter two the Lord said, “Satan, he is in your hand. The only thing you can’t do is kill him.” Verse 6:

The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life.”

And what did Satan do? He smote him with boils, terrible boils. Verses 7-8:

So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the top of his head. Then Job took a piece of broken pottery and scraped himself with it as he sat among the ashes.

And then comes Job’s wife in verse 9:

His wife said to him, “Are you still holding on to your integrity?”

Please notice: “Are you still holding on to your righteousness, to your integrity, to your honesty?”

His wife said to him, “Are you still holding on to your integrity? Curse God and die!”

Of course, he rebukes her. Verse 10a:

He replied, “You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?”

And then the last part of verse 10:

In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.

In a sense, Job passed both the tests. Now comes the three friends. And you will find the names of the three friends in verse 11: Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar. Now the arguments of these three friends — so called comforters — is typical of the Eastern mentality and is typical of human mentality. If you read their arguments all through this book — and their argument was wrong, it was not based on truth and, therefore, at the end of the book God rebukes them — they were saying that the reason he was suffering all these calamities plus the boils was because there was some secret sin in his life, that he was doing something behind the backs of the people, and that God was punishing him.

Now does God punish us like that? No, but that was the argument. But I want you to see how Job reacted in this dialogue, and this is important. I will only give you certain texts here and there because we are not able to go through the whole book in detail, but I would recommend that you study for yourselves. In chapter 6, after their arguments were presented and so on, Job responds in verse 24 and you will notice that Job defends his righteousness before his friends:

“Teach me, and I will be quiet; show me where I have been wrong.”

“Where have I gone wrong? Show me what is that sin of mine that you are accusing me of.” Verse 25:

“How painful are honest words! But what do your arguments prove?”

Verse 30:

“Is there any wickedness on my lips? Can my mouth not discern malice?”

What does Job do? He defends his righteousness. Let’s go on to chapter 10, and you will notice that Job is now defending his righteousness even before God. Job 10:2:

“I will say to God: Do not condemn me, but tell me what charges you have against me.”

“Come on God, even You, show me where I have gone wrong.” Look at verse 7:

“...though you know that I am not guilty...”

Verses 14-15:

If I sinned, you would be watching me and would not let my offense go unpunished. If I am guilty — woe to me! Even if I am innocent, I cannot lift my head, for I am full of shame and drowned in my affliction.

In other words, he’s defending himself. “Show me where I’m wrong, show me what my sin is.” Go to chapter 13. Job pleads with God to show him his sins. In fact, Job is so confident that he is sinless, look at verses 23-24:

How many wrongs and sins have I committed? Show me my offense and my sin. Why do you hide your face and consider me your enemy?

In other words, “These three ‘comforters’ are accusing me of some secret sin. God, show me where I’m wrong. I’d like to know.”

Was there a sin in Job’s life? The answer is no. Was there a problem? Yes, there was a problem, we shall see it in a moment. Chapter 16:15-17:

I have sewed sackcloth over my skin and buried my brow in the dust. My face is red with weeping, deep shadows ring my eyes; yet my hands have been free of violence and my prayer is pure.

Can you see what he’s doing? What is he defending? His self-righteousness. Turn to chapter 23 beginning with verse 10. Now all this time there’s an argument. These three friends are saying, “There is something wrong, he is defending himself.” And Job is saying, “Nothing doing! Let me turn to God and ask Him, let Him show me.” Job 23:10-13:

But he knows the way that I take; when he has tested me, I will come forth as gold. My feet have closely followed his steps; I have kept to his way without turning aside. I have not departed from the commands of his lips; I have treasured the words of his mouth more than my daily bread. But he stands alone, and who can oppose him? He does whatever he pleases.

In other words he’s saying, “I have not sinned, I have kept His commandments, I have held my integrity.” And he goes on. And then the three men come back at him. You need to keep on reading the whole chapter and book.

Then we come to chapter 31, which I recommend you read entirely. Here is the final argument of Job. In the KJV there is a subtitle, “Job’s solemn protestation of his integrity.” In other words, in this whole chapter Job strongly defends his self-righteousness, and insists that there is no sin in him. And then look at Job 32:1:

So these three men stopped answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.

Tell me, was his righteousness the righteousness of faith, or was it the righteousness of self? Now please, I would like to point out that Job was sincere, he was honest. But there was a problem, a problem that he did not realize; it was subconscious, he did not know. I will show you that in a moment.

After the arguments of the three friends — or comforters, as they are called — a fourth man stepped in. He must have been the youngest of the four because in Job 32:4 it says:

Now Elihu had waited before speaking to Job because they were older than he.

So he was the youngest, he was like Waggoner and Jones, he was a kid, an upstart according to them. And if you read Elihu’s argument you will notice that he is trying to convince Job that his problem is not sin, but self-righteousness. Elihu describes Job as saying in Job 34:5,10:

“Job says, ‘I am innocent, but God denies me justice.’

“So listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do evil, from the Almighty to do wrong.”

In other words, God is not punishing me for something that I have done wrong, God is not that kind of a Person. And he’s right there. But the question that we must ask is, “Why did God allow Job to go through this terrible experience?” I want to remind you of Hebrews 12:6,11:

...Because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son.

No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

Now look at Job 35:2, Elihu replies:

“Do you think this is just? You say, ‘I will be cleared by God.’”

[Note: Some translations read, “My righteousness is more than God’s.”]

Boy, Job’s self-righteousness is even undermining God’s righteousness. The argument goes on until we come to chapter 38. Now in this chapter, God steps in. All this time there has been an argument between Job and his friends, first the three friends and then the fourth friend, Elihu. But now God steps in. And I want you to notice: if you read chapter 38 to the end of the book, you will discover that God rebukes the three men for wrong theology. He says, “You are wrong to say that God punishes because you have done something bad.”

And you remember, Christ tried to correct the Jews of the same problem. The Jews believed that if you had leprosy, or you were sick, or you were maimed, or you were born blind, it was because of your sin, or maybe the sin of your parents. Remember, Jesus had to correct this many times in His earthly ministry. And God is correcting the three men. But we are not concerned about that, we are concerned about God’s dealing with Job. Job 38:1:

Then the Lord answered Job out of the storm. He said:

Now please don’t ask me how He answered by the whirlwind, but that’s something which was common in those days. God speaks to Job, and I want you to notice how Job responds. Did Job listen to God? The answer is yes. Did Job repent? The answer is yes. Now look at chapter 40:3-4:

Then Job answered the Lord: “I am unworthy — how can I reply to you? I put my hand over my mouth.”

At last Job admits that God is right, that he, Job, is sinful.

The work of the law is to do what? Stop every mouth. Romans 3:19:

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.

Has the law silenced your mouth?

I am unworthy — how can I reply to you?

“Yes, I answered those three comforters of mine, and I answered Elihu, but how can I answer back to You, God? You are right, I admit it.” Job 40:5:

“I spoke once, but I have no answer — twice, but I will say no more.”

God, you are always right. In other words, what God is pointing out in Job’s life is that there was a problem. That problem was going to hinder his eternal destiny; God had to correct it. He did it by this method, by going through this calamity. Now turn to chapter 42:1-3:

Then Job replied to the Lord: “I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted. You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?’ Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know.”

What was he uttering that he understood not? He was defending his self-righteousness. He did not know that his self-righteousness was filthy rags before God. But now God opens his eyes, and Job says, “I have now understood...things too wonderful for me.” Verses 4-5:

“You said, ‘Listen now, and I will speak; I will question you, and you shall answer me.’ My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you.”

In other words, “I heard about you before, but now I have direct knowledge from you.” Now listen to verse 6, and folks, this is the text that I want you to look at carefully:

“Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes.”

“God, you are right.” He’s repenting of his self-righteousness. He abhors himself. Have you and I reached that stage? That is why I said that repentance from self-righteousness is very painful, folks, because you have to swallow your pride. You have to swallow your pride as an individual, and we have to swallow our pride as a denomination. It’s hard, folks. It was hard for Job, but he realized that God was right. It was hard for Peter to repent about his own opinion. It is hard for us.

But you know the wonderful thing is this: after Job had repented, God said, “The lesson has been learnt, what shall I do?” Look at Job 42:12:

The Lord blessed the latter part of Job’s life more than the first.

“I will heap on you, Job, all the blessings now because you have learned your lesson.” And then you can read about all that God blessed him with (verses 12-16):

The Lord blessed the latter part of Job’s life more than the first. He had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen and a thousand donkeys. And he also had seven sons and three daughters. The first daughter he named Jemimah, the second Keziah and the third Keren-Happuch. Nowhere in all the land were there found women as beautiful as Job’s daughters, and their father granted them an inheritance along with their brothers. After this, Job lived a hundred and forty years; he saw his children and their children to the fourth generation.

God blessed him wonderfully. Did God enjoy putting Job through the crisis? No, there was something that had to be learnt and the only way was this method. So God put him through it, but when he had learnt it God blessed him. And the last verse (17) says:

And so he died, old and full of years.

[The Laodicean Message Christ’s urgent counsel to a lukewarm church in the last days - by J. Sequeira]

[Robert]

...you should stop saying you can't be an overcomer when He is dwelling within you, you then are empowered to do as He did when He walked this earth.

Are you living Christ's life of total self-denial? That's an over comer!

[Gibs]

It is true, all men have sinned except for Jesus. But this is the thing man is to overcome. It appears Job had reached the point desired of God and God knew he would not shrink back from it.

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job no doubt at one time committed sin, but it appears he was an overcomer and remained so all through the torture Satan put him through.

Jobs trial may have not been as intense as that of Jesus as we must realize, Satan knew if He couldn't get Jesus to sin the game was over for him.

What did Jesus overcome? Sin of course and all else of the world man is to overcome with His indwelling, for without it we would fail.

Jesus showed us what could be done with His Divine Nature in us. We are to walk uprightly as He did as we CAN have the same power to overcome as He did. We too can be perfect as Job was perfect and God will say the same of us and we will then be safe to take into His Kingdom.

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

it appears he was an overcomer and remained so all through the torture Satan put him through.

Then why did Job repent?

Clues:

Job 32:1 So these three men stopped answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. 2 But Elihu son of Barakel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, became very angry with Job for justifying himself rather than God

Job was justifying his righteousness before God and His law instead of God justifying Job.

In the judgement do you want to justify yourself before God's law or do you want Jesus to justify you by His perfect life. The latter, I hope, but not Job. He was blatantly being self-righteous.

After God talks with Job we see a different Job:

Job 40:3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said , 4 Behold, I am vile ; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth. 5 Once have I spoken ; but I will not answer : yea, twice; but I will proceed no further . ...Job 42:6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes

[troyjs]

Greetings,

It seems that some here are espousing the heresy of perfectionism, ie., that we can be holy this side of glorification. This heresy is quite easily refuted by the following verse:

1 John 1:

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

Also, the apostle Paul mentions the struggle of every believer in Romans 7 -- the struggle between the flesh and the Spirit:

Romans 7:

24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

What does Paul say in the next chapter? He says that we are more than conquerors:

Romans 8:37:

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

Remember, in chapter 7, Paul is talking of the struggle between doing what we know we should do, and doing sin. He asks, who can save me from this body of death? He answers,Jesus Christ has already saved us, and that even though we naturally commit sin, The Spirit is desiring to please God. In chapter 8, he says that we are more than conquerors.

Rather, the question of that which we overcoming, is the effects of sin. In Matthew, Jesus teaches us how we overcome:

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 I also say to you that you are [l] Peter, and upon this [m]rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

The 'This' which the church is built upon, is the same 'This' which was revealed to Peter. What was revealed to Peter? It is the gospel truth of Christ, being Son of the Living God. By faith in Christ, the gates of hell will not over power us. The term, 'Gates of Hell', is in regards to the power of sin and death over the fallen man. Faith in Jesus Christ is the rock upon which the church has overcome sin and death.

Even though we still sin, we have already overcome. We are more than conquerors.

Throughout John, we learn of the truth which the Spirit teaches, which sets a man free and gives him life:

John 3: Jesus speaks to Nicodemus of being born again, and that being born again is the work of the Spirit. By believing in Him, we have eternal life.

John 4: Jesus teaches the woman at the well about water which is ever-quenching, ie., the living water. Jesus says that if she asked for this living water, He would give it to her. When she asks for it, He reminds her of her sin of adultery, and then proceeds to teach her that He is the Christ.

In John 6: We learn that all who believe who Jesus is and what He has done, will not be cast out. Jesus teaches us that His words are Spirit and are Life. Jesus asks if his apostles will go away, and they respond that where else can they go, because Jesus has the words of eternal life, and they have come to believe that He is the Christ.

In John 8: Jesus testifies about Himself, and says that He is the light of the World -- and that whoever believes the truth concerning Him, is free. The truth will make you free.

John 10: Jesus teaches us that He is the Good shepherd. He teaches us that all those who hear His voice follow him, and that He has come to give them life. He then proceeds to teach His deity.

Between John 10 and 15, Jesus is anointed, which is the meaning of the term, 'Christ'.

John 15: Jesus teaches us about abiding in the vine. We are the branches, and every branch which bears good fruit abides in the vine. Jesus teaches us that the branches which the Father prunes, are the branches which bear good fruit. He then says that we will bear good fruit because we have been cleaned by His word.

In the end of the Gospel of John we learn that the words contained were given so that we may have life:

John 20:

30 Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

What Paul says we are conquerors over, is death and Hell. Through Jesus Christ, nothing can separate us from the Love of God. If we read that chapter of Romans in context, we understand that this love of God is not conditioned upon anything we do, but that it is solely upon the basis of God's grace:

Romans 8:

28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

The good things Paul speaks about, are not earthly blessings, but the eternal grace we receive from God, ie., predestination, justification, glorification. Even though we will suffer persecution, nothing can separate us from what God has already claimed victory over for us. We are more than conquerors -- we will live with Him forever, and nothing can change that. That is the victory of the Christian, through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The next verses:

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 Just as it is written,

“ For Your sake we are being put to death all day long;

We were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We continue to struggle with sin in our lives, just as Paul says, ant it says in 1 John -- but we can laugh in the devil's face and proclaim that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Martin Luther said:

When the devil declares that you deserve death and hell tell him this: "I admit that I deserve death and hell, what of it? For I know someone who has made satisfaction on my behalf -- His name is Jesus Christ -- Son of God -- where He is, there I shall be also!"

Watch this video for edification:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEM5fOHqs90

Kind regards

ThoroughlyFurnished.blogspot.com

[Samie]

Hi troyjs;

Does this verse not say we are already holy?

Quote:

NIV Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

[Gibs]

troyjs, Yes perfect that is as He expects and as He said Job was. That is possible for all who will have His Divine Nature in them, He is offering it, it is free to the broken of their spirit surrendered to do the will of Our Master whose right it is.

Samie,

The NIV I believe is misleading, take a scrutiny of the KJV version,

Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Santification is a process of surrender and dedication, consecration.

Man has his part to do and does all he can to vie from it.

Isa 30:21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.

Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

"few there be that find it". Yes the reason is Satan has beguiled men into a wide downhill road that leads not up to the City of God but to his pit to die with him. He wants all the company he can muster out of mankind.

"Christ in you the hope of Glory"

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

It is true that Job vindicated himself before his friends who did not understand his humiliation and suffering and in that he did not err. But he did not seek to vindicate himself before God as the following statement clearly shows:

"Job was not understood by his friends. He flings back upon them their reproaches. He shows them that if they are defending God by avowing their faith in Him and their consciousness of sin, he has a more deep and thorough knowledge of it than they ever had. 'Miserable comforters are ye all,' is the answer he makes to their criticism and censures. 'I also,' says Job, 'could speak as you do; if your soul were in my soul's stead, I could heap up words against you, and shake mine head at you.' But he declares that he would not do this. 'I,' he says, 'would strengthen you with my mouth, and the moving of my lips should assuage your grief...

"Some shortsighted, short experienced friends cannot, with their narrow vision, appreciate the feelings of one who has been in close harmony with the soul of Christ in connection with the salvation of others. His motives are misunderstood and his actions misconstrued by those who would be his friends, until, like Job, he sends forth the earnest prayer: Save me from my friends. God takes the case of Job in hand Himself. His patience has been severely taxed; but when God speaks, all his pettish feelings are changed. The self-justification which he felt was necessary to withstand the condemnation of his friends is not necessary toward God." Testimonies, Vol.3,509.

"Job's professed friends were miserable comforters making his case more bitter and unbearable, and Job was not guilty as they supposed." Testimonies to Ministers,350.

sky

[skyblue888]

Job did not suffer for being self-righteous but for being righteous. The Lord allowed the enemy to bring much suffering upon him because he was a righteous man. He is a type of those who shall live righteously in these last days and who shall be persecuted for righteousness' sake.

"There is wickedness in our world, but all the suffering is not the result of a perverted course of life. Job is brought distinctly before us a a man whom the Lord allowed Satan to afflict. The enemy stripped him of all he possessed; his family ties were broken; his children were taken from him. For a time his body was covered with loathsome sores, and he suffered greatly. His friends came to comfort him, but they tried to to make him see that he was responsible, by his sinful course, for his afflictions. But he defended himself, and denied the charge, declaring, Miserable comforters are you all. By seeking to make him guilty before God, and derserving of His punishment, they brought a grievous test upon him, and represented God in a false light; but Job did not swerve from his loyalty, and God rewarded His faithful servant." EGW, Bible Commentary, Vol.3,1140.

That says it all, does it not?

sky

[skyblue888]

And the prophet Ezekiel mentions Job among the righteous with Noah and Daniel.

Ezekiel 14:14.

sky

[Gibs]

Right on Sky,

Also God said Job was perfect, so he satisfied Gods requirment for a man and that is heartening as we know He has made a special way of help and strength for us, By FAITH His Divine Nature can be ours.

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

Yes, as it is written, "It is the privilege of every believer in Christ to possess Christ's nature, a nature FAR ABOVE that which Adam forfeited by transgression." EGW, The Upward Look,18.

What nature is this! The divine nature, far above that which Adam forfeited by transgression!

This is, indeed, food for thought!

And how do we become partakers of Christ's nature which is far above that which Adam possessed in the garden of Eden?

"Christ places His own MERITS upon man and thus elevates him in the scales of moral value with God." Our Father Cares, 121.

He places His own merits upon those who daily come to Him just as they are, sinful, helpless, dependent, believing from the heart that the merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in their behalf and they also believe that it is their privilege to claim them as their own.

"Unless he makes it his life business to behold the uplifted Saviour (crucified Saviour) and to accept the MERITS which it is his PRIVILEGE to claim, the sinner can no more be saved than Peter could walk upon the water unless he kept his eyes fixed steadily upon Jesus." T.M.93.

In other words, the sinner cannot become a partaker of Christ's nature, a nature far above that which Adam forfeited by transgression, and overcome as Jesus overcame, unless he makes it his life business to accept and claim the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour.

sky

[Woody]

Quote:

It seems that some here are espousing the heresy of perfectionism, ie., that we can be holy this side of glorification. This heresy is quite easily refuted by the following verse:

1 John 1:

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

Excellent

[skyblue888]

It has already been made clear that those who become holy in Christ this side of Heaven will be the last to make any boastful claim of being without sin. On the contrary these will always confess themselves erring, helpless, condemned sinners. sky

[Gerr]

If that is the case, how then can anyone claim that sinless perfection is achievable? On the one hand, you (?) and Gibs are claiming it an be done, then on the other hand, you can't claim to have achieved it. That's total nonsense!!! If one claims that something is achievable, then to make the claim believable, one should be able to provide examples!!!

[skyblue888]

It is achievable but those who achieve it will be the last ones to boast about it because they won't be conscious of it any more than a healthy man calls the attention of every one he meets to his soundness of body.

The Bible mentions Noah, Job, Daniel and others, Enoc, who perfected a Christian character in their generations.

But before the great controversy is over, the Lord will have such a people (in the minority of course) from every nation, tongue, and people.

sky

[Gerr]

Where the KJV uses "perfect", the major translations like the NASB, NIV, NRSV, ESV, used "blameless". 8549 &#1514;&#1468;&#1464;&#1502;&#1460;&#1497;&#1501; [tamiym /taw·meem/] adj. From 8552; TWOT 2522d; GK 9459; 91 occurrences; AV translates as “without blemish” 44 times, “perfect” 18 times, “upright” eight times, “without spot” six times, “uprightly” four times, “whole” four times, “sincerely” twice, “complete” once, “full” once, and translated miscellaneously three times. 1 complete, whole, entire, sound. 1A complete, whole, entire. 1B whole, sound, healthful. 1C complete, entire (of time). 1D sound, wholesome, unimpaired, innocent, having integrity. 1E what is complete or entirely in accord with truth and fact (neuter adj/subst).

Strong, J. (1996). The exhaustive concordance of the Bible : Showing every word of the text of the common English version of the canonical books, and every occurrence of each word in regular order. (electronic ed.). Ontario: Woodside Bible Fellowship.

Furthermore, is this righteousness something they achieved? Or is the Bible talking about the righteousness that was reckoned to them? You have already agreed that a copy can never have the perfection of the original.

[skyblue888]

It is both imputed and imparted.

"The righteousness by which we are justified is imputed; the righteousness by which we are sanctified is imparted. The first is our title to Heaven, the second is our fitness for Heaven." Review & Herald, June 4,1895.

"Righteousness (imparted) is right doing." C.O.L.312.

"Righteousness (imparted) is obedience to the law." F.W.101.

"Their righteousness is from Me, saith the Lord." Isaiah 54:17.

So the righteousness which the law demands is not something that is achieved by us but by Christ through the Spirit as it is written, "It is God who works in you both to will and to do His good pleasure." Phil.2:13.

That is the righteousness of God, and none of our own, to be sure, is it not?

When God is allowed to work both to will and to do His good pleasure in and through us, it will be a perfect work.

Gerry, you know these passages of Scriptures.

sky