Just what are we to overcome?

[skyblue888]

What I would add to the above few posts is,

It is a sad mistake to work to belittle the fact a man must take hold and do a part even though small in comparison to His indwelling in us. He must work out His Salvation with fear and trembling.

Php 2:12 ¶ Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Here is direct commentary on Phil.2:12,13:

"'Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.' Phil.2:12,13. God does not bid you fear that He will fail to fulfill His promises, that His patience will weary, or His compassion be found wanting. Fear lest your will shall not be held in subjection to Christ's will, lest your heriditary and cultivated traits of character shall control your life. 'It is God which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.' FEAR lest self shall interpose between your soul and the great Master Worker. FEAR lest self-will shall mar the high purpose that through you God desires to accomplish. FEAR to trust in your own strength, fear to withdraw your hand from the hand of Christ and attempt to walk life's pathway without His abiding presence." C.O.L.161.

Now what does it mean to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling?

sky

_______

[Gibs]

Sky,

That is a wonderful quote and testimony, it makes my heart to sing Him praises.

He takes away any fear that we might have cherished, faith in Him as our strength bannishes all fear.

He really has made the WAY easy enough for all to take hold of and have His Salvation.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[troyjs]

Samie,

Remember that it is in reference to all those born of God:

For whatever is born of God overcomes the world;

There is noone who is not born of God, who does not overcome the world. What is it that has overcome the world? The answer is following:

and this is the victory that has overcome the world-- our faith.

This victory has overcome the world.

You proceed to talk of what overcoming means, and that is important. What does that have to do though, with the explicit statement of God in His word, that those born of God have overcome, by faith?

Remember, Paul in Romans 7 teaches us that he struggles with sin, yet in the very next chapter, says that we are more than conquerors through Him. Christ conquerored for us.

Sky,

You have not responded to my presentation of 1 John 1:

5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

I ask you, if you were to question someone who had become perfect, whether or not there was sin in them, would they be lying if they said no?

kind regards

[skyblue888]

This question has already been answered again and again.

"Are you in Christ? Not if you do not acknowledge yourselves erring, helpless, condemned sinner." EGW, 1893 General Conference Bulletin, p.178.

This is the spirit of the Gospel.

The apostle Paul walked with Christ for thirty years and at the end of his life he did not boast of being without sin but he confessed himself to be the chief of sinners because he knew that without Christ he was capable of the worse sins.

So the righteous are the last to boast of their being without sin.

sky

[skyblue888]

Sky,

That is a wonderful quote and testimony, it makes my heart to sing Him praises.

He takes away any fear that we might have cherished, faith in Him as our strength bannishes all fear.

He really has made the WAY easy enough for all to take hold of and have His Salvation.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Thanks Gibs. I knew you would love that.

sky

[troyjs]

Sky,

You did not respond to the text of Scripture that I quoted.

Please respond to 1 John, where the man who claims to be without sin is a liar.

kind regards

[Gibs]

troyjs,

Sky will tell you the same as I when he gets here, no man is without sin, exception Jesus, but that is not the crux of the matter being discussed.

We are to overcome our sinning as He did without any at all. We are enabled by partaking of His Divine Nature and you have His power to do it.

The problem lies in the fact so many will not fall on the Rock and be broken of their spirit, pride self and will. It takes FULL repentance and SURRENDER, the old man must die and be totally subject unto Him to be the Master in you.

Then and only then can He impart to you His Divine Nature which each of us must have if we want to walk them streets of gold.

Sky will state some more I am sure to help others understand, there is 12 tribes of us and explanations from different ones on the same page helps others to understand and see.

Troyjs, 1 John also says,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

There is a work for us to do - and that is to BELIEVE that Jesus' death and resurrection completed the work of salvation for all who believe. Our work is an exercise of faith, not sin management.

We must BELIEVE that Jesus is the complete and perfect sacrifice for our sins.

We must BELIEVE that His grace gives us the power to overcome. One of the most sobering and disturbing thoughts I have from Scripture is that, as a believer, I am no longer a slave to sin - that I sin voluntarily. It breaks my heart to know that I sometimes voluntarily dishonor my Redeemer by misrepresenting Him by my sins of commission or omission; rejecting His power to overcome.

We must BELIEVE that when we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from our unrighteousness

We must BELIEVE that God sees believers as perfect and sinless because we are covered with the robe of Christ's righteousness which has been washed clean by the blood of the Lamb.

Some of you think this is a cop-out. Believe me, it is not easy to sustain the level of faith that God desires. Why would the God of all creation give a hoot about poor wretched sinful broken me? Because of love. Why would He not just "uncreate" me when I falter? Because of love. Why would He risk the destruction of His creation by allowing sin to continue? Because of love.

Do I believe in "once saved always saved"? Absolutely not! I can quit believing in His mercy,love and grace. I can quit responding to His gentle encouragement to become more like His Son. I can reject His grace and power to overcome; and try to do it all by myself. I can reject the concept that His grace is enough, and return to trying to earn my own salvation. When I am surrounded by a world of non-believers and performance-based believers, the temptation is always there.

So please, don't for one minute think that I am saying I don't have a work to do. My work is to keep my eyes on His goodness and grace rather than on my sins. My work is to not despair in my own brokeness, focusing on my history of sinfulness and rebellion. My work is to focus on learning God's destiny for me; and partnering with Him to make that destiny a reality. If you think that is easy then call me lazy. Frankly (and with no offense meant), I am much more concerned about what God thinks of me than what my brothers and sisters think of me, because He looks at my heart much more than my actions.

[skyblue888]

"Man's part is to lay hold by faith of the merits of Christ, and co-operate with the divine agencies in forming a righteous character, so that God may save the sinner, and yet be just and His righteous law vindicated." Fundamentals of Christian Education, 430.

What is our part? To lay hold by faith of the merits of Christ and this is our life business. See T.M.93 where we are told just that, that this is our life business. As we do this we are joined to Christ, to the Head, and through the Spirit He works in and through us and thus we are enabled to co-operate with the divine agencies to form a Christian character.

When this is our experience the Lord will finish the work in the church and in the world and then the end will come.

"We shall come in repentance and contrition with a despairing sense of our own finite weakness and learn that we must daily apply to the merits of the blood of Christ that we may become vessels fit for the Master's use." Faith & Works,86.

This is the message in a nut-shell.

JoeMo, I can agree with your last post, mostly. Yes we are saved by grace but we must show how this great grace (Acts 4:33) is obtained which is by faith in the merits of Christ, by appropriating His merits to ourselves, and we do this by claiming them as it is our privilege to do so and it is our only hope for time and eternity.

Thus we read, "The only faith that will benefit us is that which embraces Him as a personal Saviour: which appropriates His merits to ourselves." D.A.347.

Then we are in a position to receive all the blessings of the covenant of grace.

sky

[skyblue888]

troyjs,

Sky will tell you the same as I when he gets here, no man is without sin, exception Jesus, but that is not the crux of the matter being discussed.

We are to overcome our sinning as He did without any at all. We are enabled by partaking of His Divine Nature and you have His power to do it.

The problem lies in the fact so many will not fall on the Rock and be broken of their spirit, pride self and will. It takes FULL repentance and SURRENDER, the old man must die and be totally subject unto Him to be the Master in you.

Then and only then can He impart to you His Divine Nature which each of us must have if we want to walk them streets of gold.

Sky will state some more I am sure to help others understand, there is 12 tribes of us and explanations from different ones on the same page helps others to understand and see.

Troyjs, 1 John also says,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Yes, of course, one who is righteous (which does not mean that he cannot fall, though it is possible to not fall) will never claim to be without sin even if he were overcoming as Jesus overcame. The apostle Paul is a perfect example of that. He lived a life of victory and yet at the end of his life he confessed himself to be the chief of sinners. Not that he was sinning but he knew that without Christ he was capable of the worse sins. But for the grace of God...

The aim of the Christian is to attain to perfection of character in sinful flesh this side of Heaven. If we want to be among the 144,000 this is our goal but like we have said, it is not accomplished by our own power but by the power of Christ, by becoming partakers of His divine nature through faith in His all-sufficient merits.

sky

[JoeMo]

Phillip once asked Jesus to "show us the Father". Jesus responded by saying "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father". (John 14:8-9). If I BELIEVE that Jesus is indeed the represntation of the Father, what do I see?

I see a loving and compassionate Father; not an angry and vengeful one.

I see a Father who cares about me and everything that I care about, not an aloof and distant "boss" who cares more about my performance than my personal well being.

I see a Father who is jealous FOR me - wanting to protect me from all who whould do me harm - not a possesive controlling mate who tries to take me out every time I consiously or unconsiously take my eyes off of Him - even for a moment.

I see an all-powerful independent God who rules the universe; and is confident in our relationship; not one who is "needy" and "cries" every time I do not meet His standards.

I see a Father in whose lap I may climb any time I need comfort, forgiveness, or encouragement - where I can lean my head against His chest and listen to His heart beat for little old me! (That thought makes me cry).

How could I purposely hurt Him? How could I not be disappointed when I don't live up to His standards? Yet, He never gives up on me. He disciplines me (because He loves me); and He pulls me back onto His lap. Any effort I put into my relationship with Him is because I love and trust Him - not because I'm afraid of Him or because I am His "slave". Does that make sense?

[skyblue888]

Yes, brother, of course, it makes a lot of sense what you just said. This is the God of Jesus Christ. We can praise Him all the day long for that. We can all rejoice that we have such a God.

Just one more thing, you wrote, "I see a Father who cares about me and everything that I care about, not an aloof and distant "boss" who cares more about my performance than my personal well being."

Please allow me to state that it is not our performance that God wants but His own, as it is written, "His righteousness accomplishes everything." Faith & Works,27.

Just another way of saying that "it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure." Phil.2:13.

Those who think they can perform without the divinity of Christ will miss the boat. In other words, "If divine power does not combine with human effort, I would not give a straw for all that the greatest man could do. The Holy Spirit is wanting in our work." 1 S.M.411.

In other words, "Separate humanity from divinity, and you can can try to work out your own righteousness (own performance) from now until Christ comes, and it will be nothing but a failure." Faith & Works,71.

Another way of saying that "Without love, such love as dwelt in the heart of Christ, we can never be numbered with the family of Heaven." C.O.L.159.

Is this not the "straight testimony" to the Laodicean church and to all the world.

sky :)

[Gibs]

If we truly have love it will fulfil the commandments. With true love in us those commandments also become the transcript of our character as they are of His. Obedience then is not any chore at all for him who truly has love and love for Him who is not only LOVE but is also the TRUTH and the WAY!

His love must be in us, not the love so described by the world. So when He stated "if you love me keep my commandment". If His Love is in you, you don't even need to know by reading them to keep them. Like and old saying, "It comes naturally".

"To know Him is to Love Him!" Now we read, 1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

No the way He has made is not galling at all. Men have cobbled another way that leads men from seeing how it is. They leave out the part a man must play or do which is nothing but full repentance, surrender dying of the old man and falling broken of our will, pride and self and allowing Him now to be the only Master of our life. The rest of that part left out is we now have His indwelling and He enables us to walk just as He did, totally victorious.

That's the rest of the story that is happily left out but that left out part is a sad story because the captive is still held captive with sin.

Mount up against the foe with Him dwelling within and the battle is won you staying faithful.

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

[skyblue888]

And the repentance and the dying to self is not our work. We can only consent for Christ to accomplish the work. See C.O.L.158.

The command, "Repent" is a promise in Christ.

sky

[JoeMo]

I don't know ...

Sometimes it sounds like Law-keeping can be reduced to a checklist:

Did I worship false gods....................NO

Did I worship statues of Mary/saints?.......NO

Did I take Lord's name in vain?..........Not on purpose

Did I keep Sabbath?......Dunno (Watched weather on TV & rode bike 20 miles; and thought about NBA finals in church)

Did I honor parents??......N/A (both dead)

etc., etc, etc.

I know I'm being facecious here (no offense intended), but giving one's self to God and utilizing His grace and power for forgiveness and overcoming is so much more than keeping a list of submission to "thou shalt nots".

What about the church and law-keeping? Is it OK to talk about the church budget and building program during announcements on Sabbath? Is it OK to exchange American script ($$$) for Adventist script (meal ticket) on Friday afternoon so you can exchange it for Sabbath lunch at Camp Meeting? Why is it a "sin" for my wife to cook lunch for 4 people on Sabbath; but OK for her to cook lunch for 40 at an after-church pot-luck? Why is it OK to serve more sugary dessert (aka Adventist alcohol) than "veggie" entree at a chuch pot-luck and wash it down with Coke and Dr.Pepper; but not OK to serve grilled chicken, cheese burgers and coffee?

Gibs-

What part of the story did I "happily" leave out in my previous 2 posts post that makes them so "sad"?

[skyblue888]

There were a lot of wrong things being done in the Jewish church in the days of Christ especially at the highest levels:

"At the time of the first advent of Christ to our world, the men who composed the Sanhedrin exercised their authority in controlling men according to their will. Thus the souls of men whom Christ had given His life to free from bondage of Satan were brought under bondage to him in another way." T.M.361.

But Jesus did not go out of His way to denounce this lording it over God's heritage. He went about doing good and teaching the truth and by the truth that He taught the wrongs were exposed for what they were. If the truth had been accepted there would have been a revival and a reformation the like of which had never been seen in the world until that time.

It is the same today. We are repeating their history.

"The high-handed power that has been developed, as though position has made men gods makes me afraid and ought to cause fear. It is a curse wherever and by whomsoever it is exercised. This lording it over God's heritage will create such a disgust of man's jurisdiction that a state of insubordination will result." Ibid.

This order of things has been with us for more than a century.

So for years and years we have been expecting a revival and a reformation. We need to pray for this more than ever before. If those in authority refuse the light the Lord will raise up men who will give the people the message for this time.

"'I have set before you an open door, and no man can shut it.' Even if all the leading men should refuse light and truth, that door will still remain open. The Lord will raise up men who will give the people the message for this time." T.M.107.

sky

[Gibs]

JM,

Why the overcoming part of our salvation. You must know this was a very much writen of topic by EGW. It was a battle to get them out of the ditch of leagalism to just get up on that narrow way and not go off into the ditch of liberalism.

Here's a strong one from her.

" Parents, are you teaching your children to overcome? Are you seeking to check the tide of evil that threatens to overwhelm our land? Mothers, are you doing your work as educators? Are you teaching your children in their childhood habits of self-control and temperance? Do not wait till passion holds them in its iron bands, but now take them to God, teach them that Jesus loves them, that Heaven has claims upon them. In their youth put their hands into the hands of Christ, that He may lead them up. Mothers, rouse to your moral responsibility, and work for your children as those who must give an account. We must do something to stop the tide of evil, that the children and youth may not be swept down to perdition. We must be overcomers, and must teach our children to overcome. {Te 282.1}

"In the wilderness of temptation, Christ passed over the ground where Adam fell. He began the work where the ruin began, and on the point of appetite He overcame the power of the evil one in our behalf. Satan left the field a vanquished foe, and no one is excused from entering the battle on the Lord's side, for there is no reason why man may not be an overcomer if he trusts in Christ. "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne." {Te 282.2}

On the things you mentioned doing on Sabbath, for me it has gotten too liberal. I believe we should eat lightly on Sabbath of things we prepared on "preparation" day. When His Spirit in you makes you think if it is right or not it may not be, needs to be considered carefully. We are not to go overboard but are to show our reverance of any thing we do in His Holy Day and Time He comes to tabernacle with us. Care must be exercised to keep the time a Holy Time as He has set it apart sanctified unto Himself. We should cherish that tabernacle Time with Him.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

"In the wilderness of temptation, Christ passed over the ground where Adam fell. He began the work where the ruin began, and on the point of appetite HE OVERCAME THE POWER OF THE EVIL ONE ON OUR BEHALF" {Te 282.2} - Quoted by Gibs

Exactly. That's what I've been saying all along.

I still want to know what part of the story did I "happily" leave out in my previous posts post that makes them so "sad"?

[skyblue888]

JoeMo, do I understand you to say that the sentence "He overcame the power of the evil one in our behalf," to mean that since He did it for us we don't have to do it?

sky

[Gibs]

JM,

Why didn't ya finish the one little paragraph quote, You stopped too quick, read it all and discern it,

This is the paragraph you began to quote,

"In the wilderness of temptation, Christ passed over the ground where Adam fell. He began the work where the ruin began, and on the point of appetite He overcame the power of the evil one in our behalf. Satan left the field a vanquished foe, and no one is excused from entering the battle on the Lord's side, for there is no reason why man may not be an overcomer if he trusts in Christ. "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne." {Te 282.2}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Sky,

It may be a fine point, but are you implying that us doing what every human (besides Jesus) before us - tens of billions of people - have failed to do (Romans 3:10-12), we must do? Either Christ's perfect life, agonizing death, and glorious resurrection is enough or it's not. What say you? Besides - I didn't say that - EGW did. Overcoming is our privilege through the power of His grace and our witness, not our duty.

[JoeMo]

Gibs,

You're correct; I am guilty of not using your whole quote. I apologize for misrepresenting your statement. We are required to fight the battle; but in partnership with Christ - not by ourselves. Where is our faith if we do not fight the war in partnership with our King?

The gospel is defined as the good news. So .... the good news is that Christ's life, death and resurrection is not sufficient. He did not overcome on my behalf. My faith is not sufficient. I still have to earn my salvation. I have to overcome every single sin in my life and obey perfectly before the end of probation, or I will suffer the same fate as the unbeliever or consciously rebellious and evil people; and be thrown in the lake of fire. Furthermore, I won't even know if I've been "good enough" until Christ comes; and I need to worry my entire life whether or not I'm good enough or whether or not my probation has run out. That's good news? It doesn't sound that great to me. I don't get it. I'm either lost, I misunderstand you, or you are wrong.

[troyjs]

Sky and Gibs,

The text says that the ones who have already overcome, are the same ones who would be lying if they said that they did not sin. Even though I sin, I have already overcome. It seems that you believe you have not overcome, unless you are free from sin.

sky, it does not merely say that we should not claim to be without sin, but rather that if we ever did so, we would be lying.

If we ever became perfect, it would not be a lie to say that we are without sin. Paul in Romans 7 did not say that he has the capacity to sin, but rather that he does sin -- present tense:

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.

All those who walk in the light, and all those who have overcome, would be telling a lie if they said they were without sin. The truth therefore, must be because there is still in them which they must ask forgiveness for.

1 John 1:

5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

kind regards

ThoroughlyFurnished.blogspot.com

[JoeMo]

Sky and Gibs,

In my prayers tonight, God has impressed me that I am in disobedience to Him by trying to defend Him and myself by debating this subject with you guys. He said He is big enough to defend Himself. He impressed me that I am rejecting His grace and His Spirit with my frustration and attitude. I confess my sin to you and to Him. So, I'm signing off of this thread. Though I anxiously await your responses, I will not be responding any longer to this specific thread. We'll probably talk on other threads in the future. Good night and God bless.

JoeMo

[Gerr]

If we truly have love it will fulfil the commandments. With true love in us those commandments also become the transcript of our character as they are of His. Obedience then is not any chore at all for him who truly has love and love for Him who is not only LOVE but is also the TRUTH and the WAY!

Here again, because I do not measure up to God's perfection, you are assuming I don't have true love! Do I lack true love for my wife because at times I get frustrated and get cross with her? Does a child lack true love for his/her parents because he/she accidentally spills milk on the floor? Is a toddler learning to walk disobedient because he/she stumbles while responding to the call of the parent?