Just what are we to overcome?

[Woody]

[skyblue888]

Yes, Woody, "Christ in you the hope of Glory" and that is how it is. It is the blessed and Only Way. That is His Way and there is no other. Here is a great read from the pen of inspiration, please take time to read it,

" Man through sin has been severed from the life of God. His soul is palsied through the machinations of Satan, the author of sin. Of himself he is incapable of sensing sin, incapable of appreciating and appropriating the divine nature. Were it brought within his reach there is nothing in it that his natural heart would desire it. The bewitching power of Satan is upon him. All the ingenious subterfuges the devil can suggest are presented to his mind to prevent every good impulse. Every faculty and power given him of God has been used as a weapon against the divine Benefactor. So, although He loves him, God cannot safely impart to him the gifts and blessings He desires to bestow. {1SM 340.2}

But God will not be defeated by Satan. He sent His Son into the world, that through His taking the human form and nature, humanity and divinity combined in Him would elevate man in the scale of moral value with God. {1SM 340.3}

There is no other way for man's salvation. "Without me," says Christ, "ye can do nothing" (John 15:5). Through Christ, and Christ alone, the springs of life can vitalize man's nature, transform his tastes, and set his affections flowing toward heaven. Through the union of the divine with the human nature Christ could enlighten the understanding and infuse His life-giving properties through the soul dead in trespasses and sins. {1SM 341.1}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Now this is truly spiritual manna from heaven.

But this spiritual manna is no more appreciated by the professed people of God today than the physical manna was by the Isrealites in the wilderness of sin.

sky

[Gerr]

Yes siree, that is exactly what he does in us. However He does forgive each time we would come before that when sincere sorrow is had for our sin and we ask and then He works to have you fall and be broken on Him. This is the step most refuse to take that He can be the Master in you. Our spirit and will must be broken and we are then totally willing to do His will. He wants to dwell in us but we must ready the heart.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

The moment true faith in the merits of the costly atoning sacrifice is exercised, claiming Christ as a personal Saviour, that moment the sinner is justified before God, because he is pardoned.--MS 46, 1891 {3SM 195.2

White, E. G. (1980; 2002). Selected Messages From the Writings of Ellen G. White, Book 3; Selected Messages, Book 3 (195). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

[Gibs]

Yes Gerry for the sins and shortcomings already committed. You then are to do something about continuing in sin. Sining and confessing, sining, confessing, then you die with some sin you didn't get around yet to confessing or cop happened and some didn't get confessed before it closed.

Get the door closed on continuing in sin is the only safe way and man He has made it possible for the weakest saint. Like Paul said, Chief of Sinners. Well Paul had to move over, I beat him out you see. But hear Paul on this sin business.

Being DEAD to sin,

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Ro 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Ro 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Ro 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

To continue in our sining is a very dangerous way to go, and there is no need, every provision is made that all may be overcomers and no excuse will be valid on judgment day, believe me.

4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

Yes Gerry for the sins and shortcomings already committed. You then are to do something about continuing in sin. Sining and confessing, sining, confessing, then you die with some sin you didn't get around yet to confessing or cop happened and some didn't get confessed before it closed.

So, Jesus took care of my past sins, but now I'm to take care of my present ones?

And the safest time to die is right at the moment you come out of the water of baptism?

[cheddar]

Yes Gerry for the sins and shortcomings already committed. You then are to do something about continuing in sin. Sining and confessing, sining, confessing, then you die with some sin you didn't get around yet to confessing or cop happened and some didn't get confessed before it closed.

What nonsense!

The old covenant is alive and well. All false religion is built around this. Man's desperate attempt at making himself righteous.

This is why the Sabbath/Sunday controversy will be the final test.

A sabbath keeper is someone who has entered God’s rest and a sunday keeper is someone who refuses to rest and is climbing up to heaven some other way.

You may keep the sabbath outwardly but inwardly you are a sunday keeper at heart and would definitely fail the final test. Your strong, stubborn will-power would be snapped like a twig when Satan is released from the bottomless pit.

[skyblue888]

I posted this in the other thread and if u dont mind I will post it here also because it is pertinent to this discussion.

Gerry, do we need to be taught the first principles of the Gospel again? All of us should know that we are declared and made righteous the moment we come to God just as we are, sinful, helpless, dependent, accepting Christ as our personal Saviour. We accept Him as a personal Saviour by appropriating the merits of His shed blood to ourselves for "He is our propitiation through faith in His blood." Rom.3:25. " "The only faith that will benefit us is that which embraces Him as a personal Saviour: which appropriates His merits to ourselves." D.A.347.

Your statement fits in here very well:

``The moment true faith in the merits of the costly atoning sacrifice is exercised, claiming Christ as a personal Saviour, that moment the sinner is justified before God, because he is pardoned.--MS 46, 1891 {3SM 195.2

At this point of time we are holy and blameless and without reproach, because we have become one with Him. That, to my understanding, is the new birth. If following this experience one should happen to die he would die in the Lord, holy, righteous, and blameless but without having the full corn of His character in the ear. The full corn of His character will be developed in the ear during the latter rain and loud cry. Mark 4:26-29.

So the moment one is born again, He becomes righteous in Christ and God receives him as though he had never sinned.

This is a given. All should understand that.

Now the question is, How do we remain righteous, holy, without blame in the Lord? The Bible answer is:

"As you have received Him, so walk ye in Him." Col.2:6.

"He that says he abides in Him, ought himself to walk as He walked." 1 John 2:6.

This is the work of sanctification

"Unless he makes it his life business to behold the uplifted Saviour and to accept the merits which it is his privilege to claim, the sinner can no more be saved than Peter could walk upon the water unless he kept his eyes fixed steadily upon Jesus." T.M.93.

It is not natural for a man to walk upon the water just as it is not natural for a man to walk the Christian walk. It is a miracle, always.

We are not discussing your life or my life or the life of somebody else here but the way to live the Christian life.

"Teach me Thy way O Lord."

If we are truly born again and walk as He walked it will show in the manner we treat others for one cannot have the love of God in his heart and hate his brother.

Is that not the answer? We receive Him by faith, by appropriating His merits to ourselves and we walk with Him and in Him by faith, by continuing to appropriate His merits to ourselves, feeding upon His word.

We must never stop believing that it is not only possible to walk as Jesus walked but that God expects it from His children.

Because if we stop believing this we make God a liar.

"He that believeth not God hath made Him a liar." 1 John 5:10.

Even if my life is nothing but a failure in the last 30 years I will not stop believing that it is possible in this life to live a life in harmony with the law of God. The 144,000 are the people who will demonstrate this once and for all, as Jesus did. Then the end will come.

sky

[Robert]

I don't believe it ALL happened at the cross. Romans 5 says that if we are saved by his death we are MUCH MORE by His life. I believe in overcoming, too, and that it will be complete and perfect. What perfection MEANS is for God to decide.

His life refers to His obedience to God's law in our humanity.

While we do experience a new direction, we are nonetheless falling short of God's agape love. Therefore salvation is entirely based on what Christ did in our corporate humanity 2000 years ago. If not then salvation is partly by what Christ did 2000 years ago and partially what He does in the believer. This is a subtle form of legalism.

[Robert]

Job did not suffer for being self-righteous but for being righteous.

This is false statement. Job repented...that means before he considered his righteousness "vile" in comparison to the righteousness of God that Job was being self-righteous.

[Robert]

Quote:

they (Job's 3 friends) tried to to make him see that he was responsible, by his sinful course, for his afflictions. But he defended himself, and denied the charge, declaring, Miserable comforters are you all. By seeking to make him guilty before God, and derserving of His punishment, they brought a grievous test upon him, and represented God in a false light; but Job did not swerve from his loyalty, and God rewarded His faithful servant." EGW, Bible Commentary, Vol.3,1140.

This is fine to use EGW, but ultimately we must go with the Bible record. Ellen White never claimed to have the final word. In fact she claimed only to have a glimmer of the light that was yet to come. Defend your position by the Bible and the Bible only.

Tell you what...start another post. Name it Job. This is Gerry's post here....

[Gibs]

Like you stated in the post above the last one you made Robert, is the fact of what God saw of Job,

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

For sure a mere man on this earth can not equal the Father in heaven in His Sphere as our sphere is darkness to it.

But it sure does appear we are to be in this our dark sphere to walk as Jesus did as one of us as the example of what He expects here in this sphere.

I see He made it possible for us to do that so do we have an excuse for falling short? I think not.

Ro 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

If Satan could have proven that Jesus had an advantage over us in the battle with evil, he would have been the victor in the great controversy.

sky

[Gerr]

If Satan could have proven that Jesus had an advantage over us in the battle with evil, he would have been the victor in the great controversy.

sky

Jesus had no advantage over Adam. He was the second Adam, not the second Gerry or second Skyblue. You don't think Jesus had an advantage over you? If not, why did He have to die for you?

Jesus was born holy; I was born with sin imprinted in my whole being. You don't consider that an advantage? He had godly parents; I had a mean father. That's not an advantage?

[Woody]

I really have to wonder about those how believe it is possible in this life to live a life in harmony with the law of God. Are they really being honest with themselves and God?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

Yes Gerry for the sins and shortcomings already committed. You then are to do something about continuing in sin. Sining and confessing, sining, confessing, then you die with some sin you didn't get around yet to confessing or cop happened and some didn't get confessed before it closed.

So, Jesus took care of my past sins, but now I'm to take care of my present ones?

And the safest time to die is right at the moment you come out of the water of baptism?

Wow!!! What a belief system.

[Woody]

Quote:

What nonsense!

The old covenant is alive and well. All false religion is built around this. Man's desperate attempt at making himself righteous.

This is why the Sabbath/Sunday controversy will be the final test.

A sabbath keeper is someone who has entered God’s rest and a sunday keeper is someone who refuses to rest and is climbing up to heaven some other way.

You may keep the sabbath outwardly but inwardly you are a sunday keeper at heart and would definitely fail the final test. Your strong, stubborn will-power would be snapped like a twig when Satan is released from the bottomless pit.

Yes, in the end days - this will be the choice method of deception for the Devil. And I fear that many will get caught up in it. :(

[Gibs]

Gerry, Woody and all,

No Jesus did not have any advantage over us, as a matter of fact we have an advantage over what He had.

He did not take any power to overcome, sin, Satan, evil and the world but what is freely ours. We take it by faith, "Christ in You" is that power.

Now you ask how could it be we have an advantage. It is this way, Satan and his angels see Christ dwelling in you that man cannot and know they are defeated foes if and they know if you will stay with Him. Sure they will try you but not the intensity Christ had to bear with the same power.

Be a victorious overcomer, it is easy rewarding and is expected. A solid must.

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

So what happens to he that didn't overcome, well you have your answer!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

Quote:

A solid must.

That is the oldest heresy known to mankind.

For sure it's not a 'must' - rather it is musty.

[Gerr]

Gerry, Woody and all,

No Jesus did not have any advantage over us, as a matter of fact we have an advantage over what He had.

He did not take any power to overcome, sin, Satan, evil and the world but what is freely ours. We take it by faith, "Christ in You" is that power.

HIS righteousness, HIS merits, HIS goodness, HIS perfect obedience, are deposited into my bank account BECAUSE I cannot and can never attain for myself.

Quote:

Now you ask how could it be we have an advantage. It is this way, Satan and his angels see Christ dwelling in you that man cannot and know they are defeated foes if and they know if you will stay with Him. Sure they will try you but not the intensity Christ had to bear with the same power.

Be a victorious overcomer, it is easy rewarding and is expected. A solid must.

I believe in overcoming, but I do not believe that the victory to be won is where you think it is.

If you think being born normal is not an advantage, tell that to a cocaine or heroin baby.

Quote:

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

"This is the victory that overcomes the world - our faith." 1 Jn 5:4 ESV.

‎ESV ‎‎Re 12:11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.

[Robert]

"This is the victory that overcomes the world - our faith." 1 Jn 5:4 ESV.

[Gibs]

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. KJV

Born again, a new creature in Him, dead of the old man of sin. Now with full faith that He in us we are now equal to overcoming all our shortcomings of the past.

Then we with Paul,

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Ro 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Ro 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Ro 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. ( That is DEAD to sin )

The coveted Victory comes from "Christ in You the Hope of Glory!"

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Ro 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. ( That is DEAD to sin )

But you are not dead.

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ (my humanity died in Christ) and I no longer live (the old man is dead by faith), but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the flesh (our fallen lives), I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!

[Gibs]

Robert, I am glad you posted from Gal 2:, really several verses all together is a great understanding on this,

a 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Ga 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Ga 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

Ga 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Ga 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Another great explanation by Paul on being a new man building not back on what once was in us.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

When we quote scripture (especially letters to specific people or a specific people group), we must make sure we quote it in context of the issue being addressed. Peter even warns us about using scripture out of context:

"15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness." (2 Peter 3:14-18).

I am not pointing any fingers here - I am guilty of looking for scriptures to prove my own points rather than learning from the Holy Spirit.

Besides "wrest, as they do also the other scriptures", I think how we view God puts the tone onto the scriptures we read. For example, if we view God as vengeful and angry, we infer from His Word that it is spoken in vengeance and anger. If we view God as a loving and merciful Father, we infer that His word is spoken in love and mercy.

In the case of Galatians, let's look at the background and the context of this letter. A sect of Jewish Christian "legalists" -(maybe former Pharisees?) were trying to persuade the Gentile Galatian Christians, that if they were not circumcised, they could not be saved (i.e., if they were Christians, they still needed to adhere to the Law to be saved). We have seen what it says in Gal 2: 16-21 in the previous post. Let's read what Paul says further on in Galatians:

"You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?" (Gal. 3:1-4)

And further:

"2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he IS OBLIGATED TO KEEP THE WHOLE LAW. 4 YOU WHO ARE TRYING TO BE JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW HAVE BEEN ALIENATED FROM CHRIST; YOU HAVE FALLEN AWAY FROM GRACE. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. (Gal. 5:2-6)

From the context of the whole book of Galatians, I understand that Paul is trying to turn them away from the Law and back towards grace. If I understand correctly, Paul was concerned that the Galatians were backsliding by returning to strict adherence to the law.

There are some verses in Hebrews that are also used as scare tactics to convince us that at baptism, all our past sins are for forgiven; but woe be to those who sin after they are baptized!

"4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. (Heb. 3:4 - 6)"

and:

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Heb. 10:26-31)

Pretty scary stuff, huh? However, if we take these verses in the context of who they were written to and why they were written, they are not so scary. Hebrews was obviously written to Jewish Christians who - for thousands of years - were taught that they had to adhere to the whole law; and offer sacrifices to atone for their sins. It was a stretch for them to understand that their sacrifices were no longer necessary - that Christ was the one true and perfect sacrifice who had atone for all their sins - past, present, and future. There were likely other legalistic Jews (Christian and non-Christian) that were trying to persuade them that they were still required to fulfill all of the requirements on the old covenant. Without further quoting massive amounts of Hebrews (you can check it out for yourselves), the writer was telling them that if they quit relying on grace provided by the True and Perfect sacrifice in the new and better covenant, and returned to the old covenant,, they were rejecting the grace of Christ and His salvation, and could look forward to judgement under the old covenant rules.

Let us hold fast to our faith in the True and Perfect sacrifice for salvation; and not return to that which has been declared obsolete.

[Gibs]

JoeMoe, though the statements I posted from Galatians is Apropos for all, as is Romans, Paul is preaching the same reasoning here, in both cases it is Christ and faith in His strength to walk in newness of life. The old sining man must die and be raised a new overcoming creature in Him. That is the gist of it.

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Ro 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Ro 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Ro 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Ro 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Yes there is something for each to do and it is not works but surrender, broken of our will, pride, spirit and self that He is the total master of our life. Then He can dwell in the temple of your mind and heart and be your strength and stay. The old Man Killed, Broken and now willing to do for His New Master.

That dear friends is not what is happening in so many trying Christians today. They refuse to be broken on Him the Rock. This is what is keeping them from being victorious as He is not the master yet. Kill the old rebellious man and He will be the New Fruitful Master of your life.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.