When gays are gifted...

[doug yowell]

Doug, You say that "the HOly Spirit makes it clear that He gives no spiritual gifts to practicing homosexuals". Please give me a bible reference.

[doug yowell]

Honestly, truly honestly, I do not understand why sexual persuasion is such a truly sore spot for SDA's.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Honestly, truly honestly, I do not understand why sexual persuasion is such a truly sore spot for SDA's.

Sure you do, you just don't believe in the Source that informs us.

[JoeMo]

Doug,

I have neither the time nor the desire to answer your very well documented post at the same level of detail that you used. I admire EmptyCross for his heart-felt response; but my job and evening appointments this week prevent me from being able to put forth the same level of effort - especially if you are requiring me to "proof-text" every single one of my statements. My experience with other conservatives on this site over the past several months is that I am wasting my time trying to proof-text my positions; because all it does is point out what appears to be contradicions in scripture; and gets me accused of twisting God's word. Suffice it to say that the God I put my faith in is more interested in a relationship with people rather than character perfection. I have seen God give powerful gifts to gay people. I have seen God turn gays into heterosexuals. I have seen Him NOT turn gays into heterosexuals. I have seen gays reconcile their sexuality with God rather than be consumed with guilt and condemnation 24/7. I have seen churches that reach out to GLBT's to address their spiritual needs, whether or not they "change their ways". I will never prove to people like you that it's a good thing; so I will just report what I see. You go ahead and believe what you believe based on your study and spiritual experiences; and I will do the same.

Blessings,

JoeMo

[doug yowell]

Thank you,Joe, I believe you and EC have clearly stated your cases. We have a different way of understanding God's Word, EC is convinced that it's inconsistent and contradictory to goodness,you see a Biblical understanding where personal experience seems to conflict with that which is clearly stated in the Bible making it difficult to reconcile your explanation with Biblical statements. You believe that God is more interested in "relationships" than in character perfection. A simple question to you; why does He have to choose one over the other? According to the One Who knew God best,"...true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit AND in truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him." All of us were born with a proclivity to sin. Homosexual practices, along with pride, adultery, murder,ect... are classified by our Creator as sin. God condemns no one for their natural bent to sin but commands all men everywhere to repent of those practices both in action and in attitude. Usually faithful David committed murder and adultery (and more) and God said of his actions,"you have given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme..."Shouldn't this call also extend naturally to those continually practicing that which God finds abominable? And shouldn't the offender show some sort of real remorse and affinity with their Savior's concerns? Shouldn't that be a necessary requirement for a good healthy "relationship"? And what good father is more concerned with having a "relationship" with his son than with his son becoming a man of stellar character? My understanding of Scripture demands that sin be repented of (in spirit and in truth)or it will become the god which one will love and serve.This principle does not exclude the adulterer, the thief, the proud,the disobedient child, or the homosexual.

[JoeMo]

doug,

Your questions and opinions are indeed serious and get to the heart of God's message to us. I also read that many people's faith was credited to them as righteousness. We have gays, lesbians, and even transexuals in our congregation. Many had been out of the church for years because of the cruel rebuke, judgement, and condemnation they had received at other churches. Why they came to our church, I have no idea. But one difference they have pointed out to us is that we treat them with respect and love rather than judgement and derision. One (formerly) gay man is now married to a woman in our church; and they seem to have a wonderful relationship. He is still tempted, but remains faithful to his wife. A woman who came to our church as a lesbian now says she is no longer even tempted. Her "change was not due to us beating her up with scripture and SoP; it just "happened" because she feels the love at our church; and likes to be with us. She is the only lesbian attending right now, so she has no one to be tempted by. There are others who have not completely given up their lifstyles yet; but as long as they are working together with God, I have faith that they can change! We have precedent in our own congregation! Even if they don't change; who are we to condemn them? Personally speaking, I may not be gay; but I have been through some pretty dark and sinful phases in my life; and I have no right to judge anyone about anything. I do pray that God will reveal Himself to them as powerfully as He has revealed Himself to me My first spiritual gifts came to me while I was still actively practicing known sin; and it was that gifting that motivated my repentance. When people truly experience God's love and power wash over them like a waterfall, they will change!

[CoAspen]

[Gibs]

There is one thing that must be understood, sin must be called by it's right name or who do you think He will hold accountable for not when the opportunity was presented. Gays have gifts of trade and certain abilities to make a living yes but when it comes to God giving to one in open sin His gifts of the Spirit it is not the case and cannot be.

Yes they can be welcomed to come in the church for the preaching and lessons, but must not be taken in as members or ordained elders etc. It they will put away their sin and show they have been coverted away from it they are not to be called a gay or lesbian unless they fall back into the old wallowing.

Some from EGW on the subject of sin and our duty,

And Joshua said unto Achan, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the Lord God of Israel, and make confession unto him; and tell me now what thou hast done; hide it not from me. Joshua 7:19. {SD 214.1}

The history of Achan teaches the solemn lesson that for one man's sin the displeasure of God will rest upon a people or a nation till the transgression is searched out and punished. Sin is corrupting in its nature. One man infected with its deadly leprosy may communicate the taint to thousands. . . . Many dare not condemn iniquity, lest they shall thereby sacrifice position or popularity. And by some it is considered uncharitable to rebuke sin. The servant of God . . . is under the most solemn obligation to present the Word of God, without fear or favor. He must call sin by its right name. . . . {SD 214.2}

The love of God will never lead to the belittling of sin; it will never cover or excuse an unconfessed wrong. Achan learned too late that God's law, like its Author, is unchanging. It has to do with all our acts and thoughts and feelings. It follows us, and reaches every secret spring of action. By indulgence in sin, men are led to lightly regard the law of God. Many conceal their transgressions from their fellow men, and flatter themselves that God will not be strict to mark iniquity. But His law is the great standard of right, and with it every act of life must be compared in that day when God shall bring every work into judgment with every secret thing, whether it be good or evil. Purity of heart will lead to purity of life. All excuses for sin are vain. Who can plead for the sinner when God testifies against him? {SD 214.3}

The greatest want of the world is the want of men,--men who will not be bought or sold; men who in their inmost souls are true and honest; men who do not fear to call sin by its right name; men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole; men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.

{SD 214.4}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Stan]

Thanks JoeMo

[Woody]

Quote:

There is one thing that must be understood, sin must be called by it's right name

What a shame to have this stated - just after JoeMo's inspiring testimony.

[JoeMo]

Woody and Stan,

Thanks for your support!

Gibs,

We don't consider "membership" or "leadership" as elected offices in our church. People naturally rise (or don't rise) to leadership in our church. If it is obvious that God's anointing is upon them, they will naturally rise to leadership in our church. It is the anointing of God that determines leadership in our church; not some popularity contest. We are a very small (40-60 people) congregation; and the congregation can recognize God's anointing (or lack thereof) on people.

[Woody]

[Gibs]

JoeMo, Can any rise and be leaders in your church that are not liberal? Just wondering.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[CoAspen]

An uncalled for snide remark!!

[John317]

What happens if God gives gifts to gays...

Of course gays are gifted, or have talents, just as other people have them. But the question is, does a person's simply having gifts mean they should be a member or a leader in the church?

[John317]

I have a question for you then Gordon. Lets say that you have a gay person, that lives and actively gay life style, that has a great love for your God. He/she shares their love with others, brings people to worship Christ. Are they then not using their gift to glorify God? Does the fact that they have sex with someone of the same gender make the way they use that gift any less glorifying to God?

Question: Does Satan also ever lead people to join a church or religious group? The Bible's answer is a clear yes.

The point is that we need to have an objective way of determining right from wrong and not go by whether someone claims to love God. Even antichrist powers claim to speak for, and love, God. 1 John 3: 7:

"Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous."

The Bible is the objective truth about good and evil, and it teaches that certain kinds of behaviors are sinful.

[M. T. Cross]

John, being as I don't believe in Satan as some kind of ultimate evil I really can't answer your question. But lets say, for arguments sake that the Devil led someone to the SDA church. Would that lessen what they would learn there?

I know there are a portion of people here that think that the devil led me to my religious beliefs. You would base that on Biblical knowledge. Which causes me to think that Biblical truth is highly subjective.

Bottom line to my personal reasoning is this. Your church has its beliefs. I don't have to agree with them, you don't have to agree with my beliefs. But I completely respect your religions beliefs - until it hurts someone. Discrimination hurts people. Be it over race, gender, or sexual orientation. When a belief causes pain and belittles people then I have a very hard time accepting it as having spiritual truth to it.

[John317]

Just because someone is gay doesn't mean they are actively participating in a gay lifestyle...

This is true.

Originally Posted By: JoeMo

I do not reject the theory that people can't help the way they are wired. Some will say that people "decide" to be gay. I disagree. Who would decide to be ostracized, hated, rejected, and marginalized their whole life while exposing themselves to an enhanced risk to the nastiest of STDs? Only someone who is "wired" that way.

This is an oversimplification, JoeMo. People have all kinds of motives, many of which are very strange and ugly.

There are young people who are capable of going either way, and for them, it's a choice whether they will eventually be "gay" or "straight." If they're encouraged to practice homosexuality, then that is most likely what they will do.

I've personally known a good number of men who deliberately chose to practice homosexuality after they reached adulthood. I'm not suggesting that this is typical of gay people, but it does happen.

Some people get started in homosexual practices because of experiences they have in the military or in prison. They do make choices. Often the feelings and desires follow the choices and the behavior.

I do generally agree with you about the "wiring," though. All I am saying is that the "wiring" doesn't explain all homosexual behavior. There are various types of gay people and many different reasons why people have sex with members of their own gender.

[John317]

John, being as I don't believe in Satan as some kind of ultimate evil I really can't answer your question. But lets say, for arguments sake that the Devil led someone to the SDA church. Would that lessen what they would learn there?

No, because they often go on to eventually betray Satan and become servants of God.

All I'm saying is that the fact that someone is in the church and claims to love God and introduces people to Jesus is no solid evidence that they are doing God's will or that they should be accepted as a leader or even be baptized. We should get the standards from the Bible.

Let's take the example of a gay man who's a member of the church but yet is living as another's man sex partner. He may have the appearance of a good Seventh-day Adventist. He may even have the gift of preaching. (I knew quite a few gifted preachers who were practicing gays.) But what does he preach? Does he preach the true gospel? Or a counterfeit?

And what affect does his open practice of sin have on the other members of the church? Does it teach people to respect and obey God's commandments? Are people learning from him to accept and proclaim the Three Angels' Messages?

[John317]

Many had been out of the church for years because of the cruel rebuke, judgement, and condemnation they had received at other churches. Why they came to our church, I have no idea. But one difference they have pointed out to us is that we treat them with respect and love rather than judgement and derision.

All gay people ought to be treated with the same respect and love as heterosexuals. The finger-pointing, ridiculing, name-calling, and other ways of showing disrespect has no place especially among SDAs.

Yet there's a difference between condemning sin and loving the sinner. Condemning sin doesn't necessitate the denigration of the person committing the sin. I don't expect anyone to love the practice of homosexuality, but I do expect people to show respect and thoughtfulness toward others, including gays.

[Gibs]

Satan has a very strong hold on a gay person. Very, very few ever break through and escape the horrible web he has them in. More and more young people before they get out of high school now are turning out to be gay or lesbian. This lifestyle in many places and ways is encouraged rather than the liability of having a baby and increasing the population. It is touted as a way of population control but God is put aside for the sophistries of men.

The following verses are akin to this subject,

2Ti 3:1 ¶ This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

And Paul goes on further.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Gibs - You asked if people could rise to leadership in our church if they were not liberal. I'm sure you understand that liberal is a relative term. Someone that you may consider to be liberal, I may consider to be quite conservative. But the answer is yes - relatively conservative people do rise to leadership in our church. We recognize the difference between unity and uniformity. As long as a person spiritual goals and basic beliefs are in accordance with the churches statement of faith, their spiritual gifts can bring them recognition as leaders (be they teachers, evalngelists, pastors,praise leaders etc.) Naturally, one of the qualifications of being a leader is to be a good example; so people who have obvious open sin in their lives (e.g., show up at church functions drunk or high, people who flaunt any sexual sins, or people who initiate strife above and beyond the usual debates that happen in classes)will not rise to leadership.

That being said, their relationship with Christ and their spiritual gifts are what qualify them for leadership - not their popularity within the church body or the amount of money they contribute.

BTW - not everyone in our church is as liberal as I am; and some make me look VERY conservative. But we all have one goal in mind - to bring the Kingdom of God to earth (specifically Denver); and that our church may be a "ground zero" for revival among people of all faiths to expedite and expand God's Kingdom.

[JoeMo]

John and Gibs,

Just from my own personal experience; I have to say that people are wired to be gay/lesbian or heterosexual. having been an Olympic-class hippie in my younger years, I had alot of friends that were gay, lesbian or bisexual. I saw pornographic (and real-life) gay activity (a long time ago). I was never desensitized to it; It always made my skin crawl. It is the same with all of my hetersosexual friends. I can't think of a single heterosexual person I used to hang out with in my "other life" that said "I think I'll try the gay lifestyle for a while just to see what it's like". In my experience, people are either gay/bi or they're not. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen; I'm saying I've never seen it.

Since I became a charismatic Christian, I have seen people turn away from the gay lifestyle. Only they know if they have truly been miraculously changed; but from my viewpoint, they have.

I hope this is not TMI.

[Gibs]

JoeMo,

For me to ever believe one is born lesbian or gay I can not. It is the most terrible fierce hold that Satan could ever get on a person. Pastor Butch Paugh has a fellow whose life and health were destroyed by the gay lifestyle and what it got him into. He gives his testimony for about an hr of how it was and the fact of how finally he has been set free, but Satan took his toll on him and now he is a witness against it and knows only Jesus Christ can wrest one free. He does not believe he was born that way and I do not either. Some pick it up almost as babes and they are the deepest into Satan's hold.

It is a very evil Satanic practice and the young should be schooled to not get caught in that awful web.

I was in the service with one for awhile and he was terrible to be around, he had no sex partners there and was fiercly "hungry" for a partner but found none among us and he almost went wild. Satan had this man and very bad, stomach wrenching. Finally they did give him a discharge of not being compatible or something of that nature.

When the Spirit of God is fully lifted from men we'll be surrounded with this as this and other evil traits "will come out of the woodwork".

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[doug yowell]

I also read that many people's faith was credited to them as righteousness. We have gays, lesbians, and even transexuals in our congregation. Many had been out of the church for years because of the cruel rebuke, judgement, and condemnation they had received at other churches. Why they came to our church, I have no idea. But one difference they have pointed out to us is that we treat them with respect and love rather than judgement and derision. One (formerly) gay man is now married to a woman in our church; and they seem to have a wonderful relationship. He is still tempted, but remains faithful to his wife. A woman who came to our church as a lesbian now says she is no longer even tempted. Her "change was not due to us beating her up with scripture and SoP; it just "happened" because she feels the love at our church; and likes to be with us. She is the only lesbian attending right now, so she has no one to be tempted by.