When gays are gifted...

[M. T. Cross]

Lest we get into a Leviticus discussion John, let me make a couple of points here. Yes that is pointing out that either a Hebrew leader or your God thinks gay sex is bad. Fair enough. But a great many abominations are named in Leviticus. How do we know that the abomination of Sodom was sexual? Was the city named after the act or was the act named after the city because people assume thats what the abomination was?

[John317]

So most are saying that God does not give gift's to those who have not reached perfection.

I haven't seen anyone on this discussion who is saying a person must be perfect before God will give him/her gifts. There are many gifted people who aren't even converted. Being perfect has nothing to do with God's giving gifts.

[Robert]

[John317]

.... a great many abominations are named in Leviticus.

An "abomination" is simply a loathsome or detestable sin. It's a thing to be abhored, or hated. I don't know of anything in the Bible that is said to be an "abomination" which the New Testament later says is OK with God.

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

How do we know that the abomination of Sodom was sexual? Was the city named after the act or was the act named after the city because people assume thats what the abomination was?

The sins of Sodom certainly were not limited to the practice of what we call homosexuality. But a close reading of Genesis 18 and 19 leaves no doubt that it was the attempt of the men there to rape the angels of God which caused God to destroy the city. (We might say that this crime is what "broke the camel's back.") The angels were sent to the city in order to investigate the spiritual condition of the people for the purpose of seeing whether the city was indeed guilty of the sins which deserved punishment. Were there sins in addition to homosexuality? Of course. The sins of selfishness and pride and careless ease (Ezekiel 16:49) led to the terrible, widespread immorality that we see in Genesis 19.

[olger]

No doubts John.

Very clear.

G

[M. T. Cross]

So most are saying that God does not give gift's to those who have not reached perfection.

Well unless someone comes up with a reason why homosexuality is the greater sin than all the rest - that would be the impression I am getting

[JoeMo]

Sin is sin. All have sinned and fall short of God's glory. Yet - many are gifted. God has even gifted unbelievers to teach lessons to believers.

I'm sure when gentiles flooded into the Christian church (and soon probably outnumbered Jews - who had historically been God's chosen people) in apostolic times, the Jews were confused as to why God gifted them. The Corinthians must have been a pretty wild bunch (look at Paul's letters to them); but they were still the church) But God did gift the gentiles; and the apostolic church finally accepted it; and put very few restrictions on them. It was obvious that the gentiles had received the gifts of the Holy Spirit; whether or not they kept all the laws of the Jewish Christians. Is there a lesson here for the modern church?

MT - you are a very notty boy! :)

[olger]

Two reasons why homosexuality is more devastating than some other choices/sins.

1) The consequences outlined in Romans 1 reveal a steep decline of depravity - one that is very difficult to reverse. But for the grace of God, no one would get free.

2) It is fueled by pride in a unique way, and pride blocks the resolution of every other problem.

[olger]

A third reason, closely related to the second reason is the emboldened demand for public acceptance and normalization of homosexuality as a viable societal option. We don't see that kind of organized clamor for the normalization of other deviations.

It is, I believe, a result of the spiritual hardening outlined in Romans 1:26-32.

`G

[Gibs]

EC, realizing you are of a different persuasion than we,

Homosexuality and masturbation are no doubt the toughest sins to overcome by man. They both are very debasing and destroying to him in many ways. Some literally are beating themselves to death as it is done in far excess of what the body is capable of and yet have enough left for health. It really depletes the mind too of reason. Most I feel sure resort to masturbation when a lover isn't handy.

Any sin to our God as Christians will bar us from the heavenly kingdom to come if persisted in and not overcome. Some here may not believe that but that is what His Word to them plainly teaches.

A Christian should have faith that Christ in Him he then is enabled as Christ was in His walk here on earth.

Christians, break any holds Satan has on you a any cost. Fall on Him Jesus Christ as a helpless soul desparate for His deliverance. Broken, crushed,dead of the old man satisfied only to be a new creature with Him within.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Stan]

I PERSONALLY find the whole Homosexual Act repugnant, and that is a kind work for it, I do not even think it should be called sex what they do, that is 'our' word.

BUT does that give me the right to be mean to them?

Does that give me the right to convict them of their sins? (Unlike others here, I have a few of my own to get rid of first)

Does that mean I am to impersonate the Holy Spirit and 'convict' them of their sins?

If we think God is not able to shed light to them, then either something is wrong with us, or something is wrong with God. AM thinking it is NOT God.

John317 has an amazing and encouraging story, it is a story I can not tell and JIM, I wish you would put that into a book.

AND YOU KNOW WHAT? I quit smoking in 1974, I still crave cigaretes when I see someone smoke at times.

- - - please make sure John317 see this please - - -

John317 has an amazing and encouraging story, it is a story I can not tell and John317, I wish you would put that into a book.

John317 has an amazing and encouraging story, it is a story I can not tell and John317, I wish you would put that into a book.

John317 has an amazing and encouraging story, it is a story I can not tell and John317, I wish you would put that into a book.

John317 has an amazing and encouraging story, it is a story I can not tell and John317, I wish you would put that into a book.

John317 has an amazing and encouraging story, it is a story I can not tell and John317, I wish you would put that into a book.

John317 has an amazing and encouraging story, it is a story I can not tell and John317, I wish you would put that into a book.

John317 has an amazing and encouraging story, it is a story I can not tell and John317, I wish you would put that into a book.

[M. T. Cross]

EC, realizing you are of a different persuasion than we,

Homosexuality and masturbation are no doubt the toughest sins to overcome by man. They both are very debasing and destroying to him in many ways. Some literally are beating themselves to death as it is done in far excess of what the body is capable of and yet have enough left for health. It really depletes the mind too of reason. Most I feel sure resort to masturbation when a lover isn't handy.

Any sin to our God as Christians will bar us from the heavenly kingdom to come if persisted in and not overcome. Some here may not believe that but that is what His Word to them plainly teaches.

A Christian should have faith that Christ in Him he then is enabled as Christ was in His walk here on earth.

Christians, break any holds Satan has on you a any cost. Fall on Him Jesus Christ as a helpless soul desparate for His deliverance. Broken, crushed,dead of the old man satisfied only to be a new creature with Him within.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Where in the Bible is masturbation called a sin?

[Gibs]

EC, it falls under fornication and adultry.

Ge 38:8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.

Ge 38:9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.

Ge 38:10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.

"slew him also"! why?

I don't think it is in the Bible but my Daddy told me it is better to put your seed in the belly of a harlot than to spill it on the ground. I don't know if he got that from those verses or not.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

In comment to Stan's thought on seeing someone in sin. Yes of course we must first remove the "log" from our own eyes and we too should be glad that someone cares enough to let us know of a sin we are committing.

Eze 3:19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

Eze 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Eze 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

What does a Pastor amount to if he didn't point out what the various sins are to the Lord's flock that each might examine themselves?

Are we not to care enough for our brother to warn him. Sometimes the brother isn't hearing the still small voice of His Spirit well to catch the warning, we just make it audible.

Maybe not our brothers keeper but we can be a helper.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

What happens if God gives gifts to gays..

As usual we focus on the person rather than the question......"What happens if God gives gifts to_________?"

Now can we about the 'spirit' of the question? It is about what God is doing for us. What do we do with that gift/s? What gifts are we talking about? Why do we continue to focus on people and whether or not they 'acceptable' to receive God's gifts? Are we going to continue to stand on the steps of the temple and exclaim "Lord, look at me, I'm not like that sinner over there in the corner of the shadows"! Have we forgotten that the rain falls on everyone? Or, that famous person from the NT who said "I do what I don't want to do and don't do what I do want to do"! What about the fact that "what ever we do" is counted a filthy rags? Lets get off the high horse and down in the trenches with those folks who need to learn of Christs ultimate gift for us. Let us use the gifts He has given to us for the good of others instead of that constant defining of worthiness!

What did Christ say to His disciples...I have been sent by My Father to seek and save the lost!!! Let God take care of SIN and let us use the gifts to benefit others.!!

[JoeMo]

Stan, CoA and MT -

God bless you for the balance and sanity you all bring to this conversation. I too ask the question of why do we focus on people rather than the topic at hand? I add to that why does every topic eventually deteriorate to Law vs. Grace? Why do people look for reasons to condem,n others rather than uplift them?

I need a break - so much negativity is beginning to adversely affect my attitude ...

[Stan]

Think you will find that most of the people here who provide no hope for others, and are critical of everyone else, have not set their foot in an Adventist Church for years.

[John317]

John317 has an amazing and encouraging story, it is a story I can not tell and JIM, I wish you would put that into a book.

- - - please make sure John317 see this please - - -

John317 has an amazing and encouraging story, it is a story I can not tell and John317, I wish you would put that into a book.

"John317" here. (I prefer that name on the Forum since it's the name I've been posting under for the last 8 years.)

Yes, I do have definite plans to write such a book. I hope it will be an encouragement to gay people and also help their families.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Stan

So most are saying that God does not give gift's to those who have not reached perfection.

Well unless someone comes up with a reason why homosexuality is the greater sin than all the rest - that would be the impression I am getting

I don't think anyone here is saying homosexuality is the greatest sin. I certainly am not.

The question is, Is homosexuality sin?

I find that a lot of Christians, including more and more SDA Christians today, are unwilling to say homosexuality is a sin.

That is why we're having this discussion. It isn't that homosexuality is a greater sin than all other sins: it definitely is not.

But is it a sin? Is it sinful behavior?

It's important to know the Bible answer to this question for the same reason that it's important to know whether fornication, adultery, theft, etc., are sins against God.

[John317]

I agree.

[doug yowell]

this was the sin of SODOM...

"Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy."

You forgot the rest of the text,Stan; "AND they were haughty AND comitted abomination before me,therefore I took them away as I saw fit." One might add the reasons given in the NT by the Inspired commentators there: II Pet.2:6-10 Jude 7

Downgrading the seriousness of any sin to that of "no greater than" belittles the very nature of sin itself and the power of God to destroy it. He that is forgiven much is he that loves much. Implying that homosexuality is not that big a deal to either God or the sinner is no better than leaving the same sinner with the impression that his case is hopeless and God's willingness to rescue him is negated by His hatred of what he is.

[doug yowell]

doug,

I really do appreciate your feedback to me on this subject. However, you will not convince me to change my view that God gives gifts to whomever He wants to; and we don't really have a say in it.

[Felix Florimon]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

EC, realizing you are of a different persuasion than we,

Homosexuality and masturbation are no doubt the toughest sins to overcome by man. They both are very debasing and destroying to him in many ways. Some literally are beating themselves to death as it is done in far excess of what the body is capable of and yet have enough left for health. It really depletes the mind too of reason. Most I feel sure resort to masturbation when a lover isn't handy.....

Where in the Bible is masturbation called a sin?

Sin is any deliberate action, attitude, or thought that goes against God's established order regarding our thinking or behavior towards Him, towards others and/or towards ourselves. If you believe the biblical account that in the beginning God created mankind as a man and a woman and that they would join together and become "one flesh" with the ability to reproduce, you don't need a biblical verse in order to determine whether a given behavior is a sin or no.

Such union should generate emotional or physical pleasure to both of them. Masturbation is viewed as sinful behavior because it is a deviation from God established order regarding the function what sexuality was created for. People who don't believe that in the beginning God created mankind as a man and a woman would see as "normal" any sexual behavior deviating from God's established order according to Jesus and the New Testament. I say the NT because many people in the nation of the Israel adopted many pagan practices, regarding sexuality, that deviated from God's established order. A believer in Jesus does not need an explicit biblical condemnation in order to determine whether a given behavior, sexual or non-sexual, is sinful or not.

FF

[JoeMo]

Hey Doug,

I do read your posts carefully. Because I respect what I've read of yours on other threads, I take what I perceive to be criticism from you more personally than from some others.

I went back and read your posts that I was responding to earlier, assuming a different tenor in your attitude. When I read your posts the first time, I was reading into them an attitude of self-righteousness - like you were calling me out as some sort of deceptive heretic or something. Reading them over after reading your most recent response to me, I readily see that there was no self-righteousness in them; just open direct honesty and feedback. I apologize for the defensive tone I took.

There is an inherent problem with text-only messages - you can't hear the inflections in someone's voice, and you can't see their body language. Those two aspects of communication are at least as important as the words used. Thanks for reaching out to me to clear things up rather than blowing me off. Again, my apologies for mis-reading your attitude in your posts.

See you in cyberspace,

JoeMo

[doug yowell]

Thanks for rereading my posts,JM.I appreciate that very much. Words are the most important tool of communication today. I fear for those whose life experience hangs upon their reading the body language and voice inflections of those they come in contact with. A great lie can be pulled over on someone who comes across as genuinely wonderful, for even Satan can transform himself into an apostle of light. Our words should be as clear as God's Words and so I am a stickler for clarity in the wording. I don't always measure up so give everyone (like me)some slack and try to look for the best (unless otherwise prohibited)before assuming the worst.And remember that it is not only homosexuals that are misunderstood.