When gays are gifted...

[olger]

Originally Posted By: Stan

What happens if God gives gifts to gays...

Of course gays are gifted, or have talents, just as other people have them. But the question is, does a person's simply having gifts mean they should be a member or a leader in the church?

This question takes the discussion in the realm of the rational - where it belongs.

[JoeMo]

Gibs,

I agree that it is a terrible burden - both spiritually and socially - to be gay. The social aspect of it is what makes me question if anyone in their right mind truly "chooses" to be gay. Why would anyone consiously choose a lifestyle that would pretty much make them a social and religious outcast (except to a small group)and give them such increased exposure to violence upon their person and devastating STDs? If it is indeed a curse from satan, doesn't the devil have claim over us from the instant we're conceived until we submit our hearts to Jesus? I could no more condemn a gay person than I could condemn an infant born with neonatal cancer or cystic fibrosis! For that matter, it's not my place to condemn anyone for anything. Judgement belongs excusively to God.

[JoeMo]

doug,

I am not trying to wax theological here. I'm just trying to relay my experience. I can't logically explain my experiences via someone's interpretation of scripture.

Another conclusion I have made from life experience is that we can't put God in a box and limit Him to our limited belief systems and understanding. As soon as we do, He'll jump out and show us something new.

[Gibs]

JoeMo,

I'm afraid men condemn themselves and for me to condemn another no, but that is what the law does for him who is still under it that the law isn't in the heart of.

The formative years of a child till it reaches the age of reasoning is a grave responsiblity to the parents and many parents are not of God to bring up a child. So many young today are literlly running wild because of the formative yrs bringing up they had.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: JoeMo

I do not reject the theory that people can't help the way they are wired. Some will say that people "decide" to be gay. I disagree. Who would decide to be ostracized, hated, rejected, and marginalized their whole life while exposing themselves to an enhanced risk to the nastiest of STDs? Only someone who is "wired" that way.

This is an oversimplification, JoeMo. People have all kinds of motives, many of which are very strange and ugly.

There are young people who are capable of going either way, and for them, it's a choice whether they will eventually be "gay" or "straight." If they're encouraged to practice homosexuality, then that is most likely what they will do.

I've personally known a good number of men who deliberately chose to practice homosexuality after they reached adulthood. I'm not suggesting that this is typical of gay people, but it does happen.

[doug yowell]

doug,

I am not trying to wax theological here. I'm just trying to relay my experience. I can't logically explain my experiences via someone's interpretation of scripture.

[JoeMo]

doug,

I am a firm believer in Isaiah 8:20 ("To the law and the testimony ..."). I just don't know that I understand everything about God's word. Alot of stuff is really clear; but some isn't. That's why I don't know if God can be seen that clearly in a box. If the Bible was so clear, there wouldn't be 40,000 different Christian denominations or several versions of Adventists. Goodness - look how many acrimonious debates over iterpretation of God'a word we have even here in CA!

I also agree that our spiritual gifts come from the same source as the giver of God's word (the Holy Spirit). I know some powerfully gifted Christians: but I don't know anyone who is free of sin in their lives. For that matter, I can't even think of any spiritually gifted people in the Bible who were sinless (except Jesus). Jonah was a jerk. Moses was a murderer, Abraham was a liar and an adulterer, David was an adulterer and a murderer, Solomon was a fairly prolific sinner, Paul and Barnabas couldn't get along, and Paul and Peter couldn't consistently agree on truth about the Gentiles. The list goes on. I'm just a regular guy; not a theologian. I feel God is working in my life. I gotta go with that; or I despair and/or start doubting.

[CoAspen]

[Stan]

It would be nice to give non-condemning words of encouragement about now for those who suffer with a situation that most of us will never understand.

[JoeMo]

I agree, Stan. God loves us all; and only He truly understands our individual situations. He wants a relationship with each and every one of us. We can't let other people (or churches) define us - we can only move forward from where we are now into the destinies God gave each of us. Even if we don't understand, God does!

[Gibs]

Yes we are to encourage all to put away any sin whatever it is as best as we can led of His Spirit to speak if possible to one knowing he has a problem. No way shape or form though can any sin be condoned.

The fact is though all have a "pet" thing they don't want to consider sin and so I believe we can understand the situation of yes the gay or lesbian person. I know for a fact Satan has a special strong hold upon the gay person.

It is on the same level as the secret vice of masterbation and is almost imposible to overcome. Women as well as men are guilty of it.

There really has to be a total profound death of self and such a solid clinging to Christ as few ever experience. They must know if they don't the result is eternal death as none will be saved in it.

ALL can be encouraged by these words of Our Saviour and the gay person needs all the help they can get to help them come clean, if one is in a position to help, ask for prayers of your fellows and pray for the gay and his heart must be poured out too.

Our Saviour encourages,

Re 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Guest]

An uncalled for snide remark!!

I think it was very much called for, and I don't think it was snide.

[CoAspen]

Maybe 'you' wouldn't call questioning people character as attempt to denigrate them, snide. I would! When people get into religious discussions that are not going their way, the labeling begins and calling someone liberal has always been used in that way through out this forum. How people believe or act or work in the church JM mentioned has nothing to do with what others think, it is what God thinks and uses them for. Humans have this capacity to continually find ways to put others down. As has been pointed out, christians seem to have the least amount of civility towards other christians!!!

[John317]

John and Gibs,

Just from my own personal experience; I have to say that people are wired to be gay/lesbian or heterosexual. having been an Olympic-class hippie in my younger years, I had alot of friends that were gay, lesbian or bisexual.

Some are-- some aren't. Only God knows who these people are.

Just because a person is "wired to be gay" doesn't mean he has no choice whether to obey God or not. I myself have no doubt that I was "wired to be gay."

But some people are also "wired" to have a bad temper or to get drunk. Yet they still have a choice whether to follow their "wiring" or whether to follow God's commands. It all has to do with whether we are willing to die to self and live for God.

QUESTIONS: Are we willing to die rather than sin against God?

Or do we want to do our own will and pleasure even when we know it is against what God has told us in His word?

[John317]

Do we really help gays by telling them that the practice of homosexuality is not a sin and that God is OK with it?

[Gibs]

CA, You know there in none here called a legalist anymore than myself. Many here see me as such because of their stand to hold up and protect the liberal view they hold of the gospel message.

No you have me wrong, I only ask JM a civil question as I wondered if he felt an old "legalist" like the likes of myself would be considered or not.

I have no animosity towards the liberal, I just would like to have them see the truth of the question which I find is ignored and made of no effect.

But I want to see this thread back on topic, "When Gays are Gifted"

Yes I know they have gifts to earn a living, but does God give them Gifts of the Spirit?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[olger]

Do we really help gays by telling them that the practice of homosexuality is not a sin and that God is OK with it?

"When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood" (Ezekiel 3:18).

[JoeMo]

All,

CoAspen has me pegged correctly. I'm not telling gays that their activity is not a sin (as John 317 insinuates) any more than I would tell an adulterer that adultery is not a sin. I do not discount and "old legalist" like Gibs - his heart is genuine and consistent. Like CoAspen says - I'm just looking for civility towards all; and let God be the judge. he knows the heart better better than any of us.

[JoeMo]

My last comment was inappropriate; I apologize to any gays out there I may have offended. I would sooner tell an adulterer of his sin than rebuke a gay person. Adultery is a voluntary sin committed out of forethought. Being gay (IMO) is not a voluntary thing.

[doug yowell]

doug,

I am a firm believer in Isaiah 8:20 ("To the law and the testimony ..."). I just don't know that I understand everything about God's word.

[doug yowell]

My last comment was inappropriate; I apologize to any gays out there I may have offended. I would sooner tell an adulterer of his sin than rebuke a gay person. Adultery is a voluntary sin committed out of forethought. Being gay (IMO) is not a voluntary thing.

Jesus clarified that adultery didn't have to physically occur in order for God to judge it as sin. How then does the homosexual justify their ACTIONS? Homosexual behavior is not an uncontrollable spasm that the person has no control over.You speak as if the gay person has no moral accountability for either their thoughts or actions while adulterers always make calculated choices.As if the gay has no thought processes that work against God's will for them.If a heterosexual person is required to suppress their natural desires until marriage then why is the homosexual granted immunity from that same responsibility simply because of their "orientation"? Sexual purity is important to God for every human alive. I feel sorry for those who may not come equipped for a God designed sexual relationship but I feel humbled by those who choose to submit their bodies to God rather than to indulge their natural instincts.

[JoeMo]

doug,

I really do appreciate your feedback to me on this subject. However, you will not convince me to change my view that God gives gifts to whomever He wants to; and we don't really have a say in it. You imply that I condone appointing people who are living in open sin to leadership. I don't! It seems like you don't see the discinction between being gay and participating in gay activity. I know at least two men who are attracted exclusively to other men who are completely celibate; because they are convinced that acting on their attraction would be not be honorable. As a heterosexual, I see many women that I am physically attracted to; but I don't act on it, because it would be a sin. How is being a celibate gay/lesbian any different?

The bottom line for me is that neither of us are gay; so we have no idea about the trials GLBT's go through. We have no right to pass any judgement on them at all because we do not(and will likely never) know the burdens of their hearts. If God wants to give them spiritual gifts, that's His right. If a person is gay but not active in the gay lifestyle, he/she has just as much right to actively participate in church as a heterosexual person who is not promiscuous. People who are GLBT are as welcome in our church as anyone else looking for a Savior in Jesus Christ; and Jesus is just as able to save GLBT's as anyone else. Period. End of discussion. Signing off from this thread.

Again, my apologies to any GLBT's that I may have offended with any of my posts. Since I am not gay, I am challenged to empathize with all of the issues and sensitivites of your lives. I DO know this - God knows you very well; and He loves each and every one of you as much as he loves everyone else; and you have just as much right to worship Him and boldy approach His throne of grace in your time of need - no matter what your need is - as anyone else. There is nothing you can do to make Him love you any more than He already does; and there is nothing you can do to make Him love you any less.

[Gibs]

JoeMo, I think maybe the difference of view is you see some at least of gays are wired that way. God didn't wire them that way, you see, Satan got in them and rewired them that way. To get them rewired back to normal requires you could term an exorcism. If it does happen he got delivered then each time he refuses an opportunity for it again he will become a little stronger to go the right way. Each pull away he does removes a thread of Satan's hold on him.

It will be a long haul battle for him or her but they must cling to Christ very, very closely and sincerely, total dedication and full and complete surrender to only do the will of Jesus Christ.

It no doubt is a lot harder to break loose of than smoking. I at one time smoked 3 to 4 packs of Camel cigs a day, a chain smoker. Yes I finally got cleaned of it but was about 3 yrs before a cig being smoked near me smelled repulsive instead of almost overpowering to have one too.

We need Christ for our strength,

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Satan got in them and rewired them that way.

An opinion, but not a fact. We have been down this road many times before, it is a favorite topic on these forums, but much scientific research data says differently. Maybe some persons choose a different sexual lifestyle, but to make a blanket statement to that effect would be incorrect.

One wonders why so many christians refuse to think that in this sinful world with the decline in genetic purity that being a homosexual is purely choice. That is the same as saying any and all diseases are choice.

[JoeMo]

CoAspen,

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God Bless you, brother!