When gays are gifted...

[Gibs]

I personally see these verses telling us where and how being gay comes about.

Ro 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Ro 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Ro 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Ro 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

These poor folk do need help and it one can help them recover that is fine, just be careful you do not get caught in it too trying.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[CoAspen]

........context is everything........

Everything is because of the original sin, so do all disease become chosen? Or did the devil do it too us?

[John317]

All,

CoAspen has me pegged correctly. I'm not telling gays that their activity is not a sin (as John 317 insinuates) any more than I would tell an adulterer that adultery is not a sin. I do not discount and "old legalist" like Gibs - his heart is genuine and consistent. Like CoAspen says - I'm just looking for civility towards all; and let God be the judge. he knows the heart better better than any of us.

I'm not talking about civility or non-civility. I'm always civil towards gay people; after all, I am gay myself (tho' haven't practiced since 2004).

I just drove all the way to North Carolina and back partly in order to visit with a gay friend of mine.

The reason I have said what I did is that it's becoming more and more common for people to give the impression that they believe God will save practicing homosexuals in His kingdom. That is true even among SDAs.

[John317]

........context is everything........

Do you believe the Bible teaches that the practice of homosexuality is sinful?

If you believe the context of the verses in the Bible show they don't condemn the practice of men and women having sexual relations with members of their gender, please show the evidence.

[John317]

One wonders why so many christians refuse to think that in this sinful world with the decline in genetic purity that being a homosexual is purely choice. That is the same as saying any and all diseases are choice.

Whether a person chooses to be a gay person-- that is, to be attracted sexually to members of their own gender-- is not the point. I am attracted to other men, but the point is that I choose not to act on my attraction and I allow God's Spirit to change my thinking. Similarly, there are many men who have a "natural" desire or lust for women, but that doesn't mean they have no choice: they choose whether to act on their desires or whether to obey God. The same applies to gay people.

Here's the all-important point: God is able to save even gay people from their sins! See 1 Cor. 6: 9-11.

But will the gay person be saved from his sins if other Christians teach him that God doesn't consider homosexuality to be sinful, and if he/she in consequence goes on practicing gay sex?

[JoeMo]

John 317,

WOW!! That is one of the best testimonies I have seen on CA. My hat is off to you, sir! You have indeed followed God's leading in your life!

You don't have to answer this if you don't want to...

Is it difficult for you - especially when you visit gay friends? All of my gay friends have told me they are still tempted.

I have confidence that God saves practicing gays; as long as they have faith in Him. But I don't know - I'm not God. Only He knows their hearts. So many gay people have so much better principle, understanding, and compassion than so-called "Christians". Maybe it's because they themselves have suffered persecution. I wouldn't know - I'm not gay.

Again John, I am both touched and blessed by your testimony here (I'm crying right now, I'm so overwhelmed!) Bless you, brother, for your faith in His grace to overcome! You are indeed an example to people who try to excuse "easy" sins. You have truly overcome one by the blood of the Lamb! Keep overcoming!

In Jesus name,

JoeMo

[Guest]

But will the gay person be saved from his sins if other Christians teach him that God doesn't consider homosexuality to be sinful, and if he/she in consequence goes on practicing gay sex?

Not hardly. And how can those who do gloss over it with smooth words be any better off than the gays practicing gay sex? You would have to be wrong in a whole host of other areas to believe that Romans 1:27,28 was somehow taken out of context, and doesn't apply to gays.

[Gibs]

It is but a simple matter if one will just believe the Word of God and not try wiggling around it in some way to make it of no effect. We see that a lot these last days and the same with the SOP writings and she predicted it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

RLH and Gibs,

May God forgive you - that was cruel. How discouraging posts like yours are to those who are struggling to overcome! God can save anyone He pleases; and He is doing nothing but encouraging those struggling in the GLBT lifestyle to keep on the path to overcoming.

God is blessing you, John317. Don't let naysayers discourage you or any others. You are gifted because, by God's grace, you continue overcoming by God's grace! Your testimony continues to touch my heart.

One of my good friends at our church is a "reformed" gay man (happily married and trying to start a family - no longer a practicing gay). He also sits on the board of another non-denominational church ("Where Grace Abounds") that ministers specifically to Christians trapped in alternative sexual lifestyles (i.e., the GLBT community) who have been spurned by other churches. None of us even knew he was gay until he gave a sermon on how difficult it was to grow up Adventist and gay. He admitted that he used legalism as a defense to protect him from admitting his gayness; and how much more free he felt now that he was being open and honest with his brothers and sisters.

[Gibs]

JoeMo,

It is indeed good to hear of the man you speak of as a no longer practicing gay. He only knows when he has fully overcome it and then is no longer a gay. He may be there now and sounds as he may be. It would be well not to call him gay or he to consider himself so. He would be an overcomer of it.

No and I think you are wrong in your censer of myself and RLH for making it clear the lifestyle is sin. God calls sin by it' right name and we should too. What good is a pastor that wouldn't? I would hunt another congregation and a true Pastor fast.

If you want to meet cyber with some hard gays and atheists I could give you a website that has a place for religious posts and when you do those two lifestyles will blast you with very untimely vulgar language and that is allowed there.

I worked there for awhile and some others but it is nasty but is needed to be done if one can stomach it. It is a big site around the size of this one maybe bigger, not sure. I still am a member there, don't think any get the boot there either. You can be gone for months and not have to log back in too and that part is nice. PM me if you would like a shot at it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[CoAspen]

You are reading my posts incorrectly, I have mentioned nothing about sexual practices being sinful or not. I was responding to Gibs saying the gay person is choosing to be gay and trying to prove that from the Bible. Re read!!!

[JoeMo]

Gibs,

No thanks, I get all the rebuke - vulgar language or not - that I need right here on CA. I'm sure you do, too. You get picked on a lot.

My heart truly goes out to those stuck in a lifestyle they did not choose who are rebuked and condemned with such vigor. If we were talking about a person who was a gossip, or one who cussed a lot, or one who had a problem with anger or lustful thoughts about members of the opposite sex, would the condemnation and rebuke of those folks go as far as it has here about GLBT people? You know that without Christ, all would be equally deserving of eternal destruction. In fact, even with Christ, we equally deserve eternal destruction. It is only by the goodness, mercy, compassion, grace, and sacrifice of Christ received by faith that any us have a chance at eternal life. We all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. Yet, in His goodness and mercy, He gives us gifts. I am a sinner saved by grace; and God has given me gifts - the greatest of which is eternal life. I still fall to some of the "easy" sins I listed above; but, because of grace, I still have eternal life and the other gifts so graciously granted to me by the Spirit. If I am saved, why not people who are trapped by something they never even volunteered for? I include in this group not only GLBTs, but those trapped by addictions. Yes, most addicts got these by poor decisions made years ago; but believe me; addiction is a much harder hole to climb out of than it is to fall into. I know from personal experience of formerly being addicted to drugs and alcohol. I shouldn't say formerly addicted - once an addict always an addict. If I were to fall, I would be right back in the same hole just as deep faster than you could answer this post.

If I were to believe that I am lost because of past "big"sins, present "little" sins, or occasional temptation to get high, I would despair. It is only by believing I have Christ on my side that I stay sober. You and others think that I believe in cheap grace just because I confidently proclaim my salvation. It ain't cheap grace, my friend - it keeps me spiritually alive!

Yeah, I dug my own hole to fall into. IMO, GLBTs did not - it was dug for them be satan! If I need the grace of Jesus to keep me from slipping, how much more do they! I will NOT judge or discourage them, lest I judge myself, despair, and be lost!

Have you ever had a serious sin problem, Gibs? If you had, and God graciously and patiently delivered you from it - all the while showering His love all over you; and encouraging you along the path to recovery, you would know what I'm talking about.

[Guest]

RLH and Gibs,

May God forgive you - that was cruel.

You are reading something in that isn't there.

[Stan]

So most are saying that God does not give gift's to those who have not reached perfection.

[Guest]

I haven't heard that from anybody.

[Gibs]

JoeMo, Yes I have had a very many serious sin problems and not easy to pull out of and would not of my own strength. I had to die a death of each you can know. But of this thread I should have posted about Sodam before but it may be a little light on the subject.

Work with the gays, but in personal contact be very very careful,

EGW,

"The dwellers in Sodom were corrupt; vile conversation greeted his ears daily, and his righteous soul was vexed by the violence and crime he was powerless to prevent. His children were becoming like these wicked people, for association with them had perverted their morals. Taking all these things into consideration, the worldly riches he had gained seemed small and not worth the price he had paid for them. His family connections were extensive, his children having married among the Sodomites. {4T 110.2}

The Lord's anger was finally kindled against the wicked inhabitants of the city, and angels of God visited Sodom to bring forth Lot, that he should not perish in the overthrow of the city. They bade Lot bring his family, his wife, and the sons and daughters who married in wicked Sodom, and told him to flee from the place. "For," said the angels, "we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it." {4T 110.3}

And Lot went out and entreated his children. He repeated the words of the angel: "Up, get you out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city." But he seemed unto his sons-in-law as one who mocked; for they had lived so long in Sodom that they had become partakers of the sins of the people. And the daughters were influenced by their husbands to believe that their father was mad. They were well enough off where they were. They were rich and had great possessions; and they could not believe it possible that beautiful Sodom, a rich and fertile country, would be destroyed by the wrath of a sin-avenging God. {4T 110.4}

Sex perversion is one of Satan's most vulnerable traps for man to fall into. He says to himself, "how can anything so good be bad" and Satan whispers it too of course.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Stan]

if you re-read the beginning of this.....

[Stan]

this was the sin of SODOM...

"Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy."

[M. T. Cross]

this was the sin of SODOM...

"Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy."

Lack of generousity is a terrible sin indeed. It is one of the very few things I would actually call a sin.

[Gibs]

Stan, it appears they had the gifts of getting rich anyway but I seriously doubt any of the gifts of His Spirit as it seems there's is a sin He is especially sore about.

Idleness Weakens Brain Power.--The reason the youth have so little strength of brain and muscle is because they do so little in the line of useful labor. "Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before Me: therefore I took them away as I saw good" (Ezekiel 16:49, 50).--4T 96 (1876). {2MCP 383.1}

Satan's best stronghold in man sex and sex perversions of all kinds.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[M. T. Cross]

Where is it said that the abomination was sexual? I just don't remember, not saying that there is a verse that does not say that it was.

[olger]

Where is it said that the abomination was sexual? I just don't remember, not saying that there is a verse that does not say that it was.

I get confused by all them nots...

[John317]

... I would sooner tell an adulterer of his sin than rebuke a gay person. Adultery is a voluntary sin committed out of forethought. Being gay (IMO) is not a voluntary thing.

Having gay sex is also a voluntary thing. This isn't about "being gay." This is about whether a gay person chooses to have sex or sexual relations with a member of their own gender. Those are two very different things.

Also, there's no reason to believe that every person has a resonsibility to rebuke every gay person he sees. There's an appropriate and good time to "rebuke" and there are also some people who are best situated to talk to a gay person about the subject. I believe this discussion is about whether the practice of homosexuality is sinful and opposed to God's will-- not whether it is our individual duty to convince gay people that they shouldn't be gay.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Where is it said that the abomination was sexual? I just don't remember, not saying that there is a verse that does not say that it was.

I get confused by all them nots...

I am very notty

[John317]

Where is it said that the abomination was sexual? I just don't remember, not saying that there is a verse that does not say that it was.

Is there any doubt in your mind as to the meaning of the following statements in the Bible?

Leviticus 18:20-24

[20] Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her. [21] And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the Lord. [22] Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. [23] Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion. [24] Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you.