Pastors David Asscherick and Ron Du Preez VOTE YES on Women's Ordinati

[Woody]

Olger - I am unable to find your quotes. Just saying.

For instance - the last quote - I find "January 24, 1895 Obedience to God's Word Required." But I don't find the quote you listed.

[Guest]

Never ask a double question, Johann. That's what got us into trouble in Matthew 24...

First question: NO.

Second question is remarkably similar to the first: NO.

regards,

G

[Tom Wetmore]

Olger - I am unable to find your quotes. Just saying.

For instance - the last quote - I find "January 24, 1895 Obedience to God's Word Required." But I don't find the quote you listed.

Yes, as I recall, quotes like these were used at least once before without anyone else being able to verify them.

Apparently within a very few years James had new light on the matter since he became a strong advocate for more significant roles for women in the church including ministry.

But it is quite difficult to get past Ellen White's very plain direct statement:

Quote:

It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors of the flock of God.

And it's not hard to find since it was published by her a half dozen or so times, and by the White Estate at least as many times after her death.

[BobRyan]

Quote:

It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors of the flock of God.

[lazarus]

Yes, as I recall, quotes like these were used at least once before without anyone else being able to verify them.

Seems like folks will go to considerable lengths to try to prove a point. Who would have thought folks would try to pass off other quotes as EGW quotes? Weirdness and desperation.

[BobRyan]

No. 176. "Who Should be Church Officers?Should women be elected to offices in the church when there are enough brethren? If by this is meant the office of elder, we should say at once, No. But there are offices in the church which women can fill acceptably, and oftentimes there are found sisters in the church who are better qualified for this than brethren, such offices, for instance as church clerk, treasurer, librarian of the tract society, etc., as well as the office of deaconess, assisting the deacons in looking after the poor, and in doing such other duties as would naturally fall to their lot. The qualifications for church elder are set forth in 1 Tim. 3:1-7 and in Titus 1:7-9.We do not believe that it is in God’s plan to give to women the ordained offices of the church. By this we do not mean to depreciate their labors, service, or devotion. The sphere of woman is equal to that of man. She was made a help meet, or fit, for man, but that does not mean that her sphere is identical to that of man’s. The interests of the church and the world generally would be better served if the distinctions given in God’s word were regarded." Signs of the Times, January 24, 1895, Vol. 21. No. 4, Pg. 3

Two things to remember for those quotes.

1. The ones that verifiably come from Ellen White are specific to the context of Marriage -- husband and wife.

2. In the quote above I do not find the phrase ordained offices of the church used anywhere in Ellen White's writings - regardless of the context with women or not.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Yes, as I recall, quotes like these were used at least once before without anyone else being able to verify them.

Seems like folks will go to considerable lengths to try to prove a point. Who would have though folks would try to pass off other quotes as EGW quotes? Weirdness and desperation.

On the other hand - I am always happy to find a case where a fellow Adventist is truly interested in something Ellen White said.

[lazarus]

On the other hand - I am always happy to find a case where a fellow Adventist is truly interested in something Ellen White said.

In my line of work, I find most Adventists are truly interested in what she said.

[BobRyan]

I am gad to hear that.

[Johann]

Here is another quotation for those who enjoy the writings of Ellen G White:

Quote:

Daughters of God, p. 102.

"I attended the morning ministers’ meeting. The blessing of the Lord came upon me, and I spoke in the demonstration of the Spirit of God and with power. There are those who are working out a great circle. The Lord has given Christ to the world for ministry. Merely to preach the Word is not ministry. The Lord desires His ministering servants to occupy a place worthy of the highest consideration. In the mind of God, the ministry of men and women existed before the world was created. He determined that His ministers should have a perfect exemplification of Himself and His purposes."

[Woody]

Here is another quotation for those who enjoy the writings of Ellen G White:

Quote:

Daughters of God, p. 102.

"I attended the morning ministers’ meeting. The blessing of the Lord came upon me, and I spoke in the demonstration of the Spirit of God and with power. There are those who are working out a great circle. The Lord has given Christ to the world for ministry. Merely to preach the Word is not ministry. The Lord desires His ministering servants to occupy a place worthy of the highest consideration. In the mind of God, the ministry of men and women existed before the world was created. He determined that His ministers should have a perfect exemplification of Himself and His purposes."

Interesting quote from someone who most all love to hear what her opinion is on issues.

But I must say that the bar is placed pretty high here. I have yet to meet anyone who has "a perfect exemplification of Himself and His purposes."

[BobRyan]

Here is another quotation for those who enjoy the writings of Ellen G White:

Quote:

Daughters of God, p. 102.

"I attended the morning ministers’ meeting. The blessing of the Lord came upon me, and I spoke in the demonstration of the Spirit of God and with power. There are those who are working out a great circle. The Lord has given Christ to the world for ministry. Merely to preach the Word is not ministry. The Lord desires His ministering servants to occupy a place worthy of the highest consideration. In the mind of God, the ministry of men and women existed before the world was created. He determined that His ministers should have a perfect exemplification of Himself and His purposes."

Kinda reminds me of 1Johh 3:1-10 and 1John 2:3-5.

Amazing how God's messages are consistent.

in Christ,

Bob

[Guest]

The word minister does not automatically equate to "ordained". We are all ministers. Or should be.

[Woody]

The word minister does not automatically equate to "ordained". We are all ministers. Or should be.

Yes. And we are all ordained also

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Yes, as I recall, quotes like these were used at least once before without anyone else being able to verify them.

Seems like folks will go to considerable lengths to try to prove a point. Who would have thought folks would try to pass off other quotes as EGW quotes? Weirdness and desperation.

re:

Originally Posted By: olger

No. 176. "Who Should be Church Officers?Should women be elected to offices in the church when there are enough brethren? If by this is meant the office of elder, we should say at once, No. But there are offices in the church which women can fill acceptably, and oftentimes there are found sisters in the church who are better qualified for this than brethren, such offices, for instance as church clerk, treasurer, librarian of the tract society, etc., as well as the office of deaconess, assisting the deacons in looking after the poor, and in doing such other duties as would naturally fall to their lot. The qualifications for church elder are set forth in 1 Tim. 3:1-7 and in Titus 1:7-9.We do not believe that it is in God’s plan to give to women the ordained offices of the church. By this we do not mean to depreciate their labors, service, or devotion. The sphere of woman is equal to that of man. She was made a help meet, or fit, for man, but that does not mean that her sphere is identical to that of man’s. The interests of the church and the world generally would be better served if the distinctions given in God’s word were regarded." Signs of the Times, January 24, 1895, Vol. 21. No. 4, Pg. 3

The author was Milton Charles Wilcox (1853-1935), editor of the Signs of the Times, and close friend and contemporary of James and Ellen White. If you want to read more about him, here's some biographical information: M.C. Wilcox bio

[Guest]

Thank you Pam! Our researcher in chief. Also http://maranathamedia.com is a wonderful website. Lots of good stuff there.

[Windsor]

Eve had been perfectly happy by her husband's side in her Eden home; but, like restless modern Eves, she was flattered with the hope of entering a higher sphere than that which God had assigned her. In attempting to rise above her original position, she fell far below it. A similar result will be reached by all who are unwilling to take up cheerfully their life duties in accordance with God's plan. In their efforts to reach positions for which He has not fitted them, many are leaving vacant the place where they might be a blessing. In their desire for a higher sphere, many have sacrificed true womanly dignity and nobility of character, and have left undone the very work that Heaven appointed them. P&P 59

[Johann]

Eve had been perfectly happy by her husband's side in her Eden home; but, like restless modern Eves, she was flattered with the hope of entering a higher sphere than that which God had assigned her. In attempting to rise above her original position, she fell far below it. A similar result will be reached by all who are unwilling to take up cheerfully their life duties in accordance with God's plan. In their efforts to reach positions for which He has not fitted them, many are leaving vacant the place where they might be a blessing. In their desire for a higher sphere, many have sacrificed true womanly dignity and nobility of character, and have left undone the very work that Heaven appointed them. P&P 59

And we have just seen that both men and women were designed to be ministers. Eve desired to be be like God Himself. . .

[Johann]

Originally Posted By: lazarus

Seems like folks will go to considerable lengths to try to prove a point. Who would have thought folks would try to pass off other quotes as EGW quotes? Weirdness and desperation.

re:

Originally Posted By: olger

No. 176. "Who Should be Church Officers?Should women be elected to offices in the church when there are enough brethren? If by this is meant the office of elder, we should say at once, No. But there are offices in the church which women can fill acceptably, and oftentimes there are found sisters in the church who are better qualified for this than brethren, such offices, for instance as church clerk, treasurer, librarian of the tract society, etc., as well as the office of deaconess, assisting the deacons in looking after the poor, and in doing such other duties as would naturally fall to their lot. The qualifications for church elder are set forth in 1 Tim. 3:1-7 and in Titus 1:7-9.We do not believe that it is in God’s plan to give to women the ordained offices of the church. By this we do not mean to depreciate their labors, service, or devotion. The sphere of woman is equal to that of man. She was made a help meet, or fit, for man, but that does not mean that her sphere is identical to that of man’s. The interests of the church and the world generally would be better served if the distinctions given in God’s word were regarded." Signs of the Times, January 24, 1895, Vol. 21. No. 4, Pg. 3

The author was Milton Charles Wilcox (1853-1935), editor of the Signs of the Times, and close friend and contemporary of James and Ellen White. If you want to read more about him, here's some biographical information: M.C. Wilcox bio [/quote']

where Wilcox wrote:

Quote:

Christ in making Him everywhere present with all His power, and revealing Him to those in harmony with His law. Thus the Spirit is personified in Christ and God, but never revealed as a separate person. Never are we told to pray to the Spirit; but to God for the Spirit. Never do we find in the Scriptures prayers to the Spirit, but for the Spirit.” {M. C. Wilcox, Questions and Answers Gathered From the Question Corner Department of the Signs of the Times, pp. 181, 182. 1911}

Is this what we believe today?

[Woody]

Quote:

Is this what we believe today?

Who is we? The church believes in the Bible and the Bible only. Not some obscure author who has not authority whatsoever.

[ClubV12]

Who is this "obscure" author whose counsel is so easily dismissed? Perhaps who the author is, is not as important as to when and where his counsel was printed, which was...

The statement regarding women’s ordination was printed on the same page as an Ellen White article on obedience in the Signs of the Times, January 24, 1895. If Ellen White did not endorse this position, she would likely have spoken on it or written to correct it.

But she remained silent as it regards this author and the publication. That speaks volumes as to the position of leadership in 1895 regarding ordination. I will leave it to the reader to determine whether that position was acceptable then or now, whether they were right or wrong. But one thing is clear, Ellen White didn't have a problem with they're position at that time or any time thereafter as it concerns this article.

"We do not believe that it is in God’s plan to give to women the ordained offices of the church."

Note: "We", plural, the editors and authors of the Signs of the Times at the very least. I would submit, the position of the leadership of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, including Sister White in the "we".

“The primary object of our college was to afford young men an opportunity to study for the ministry and to prepare young persons of both sexes to become workers in the various branches of the cause.” (Testimonies, volume 5, page 60)

The issue is very clear to me. And in no way is any of this meant to disparage the needful and wonderful work of women in the Church.

just passing through....

[phkrause]

Well good to see you passing through every once in a while ClubV12. Have

[Johann]

Quote:

Is this what we believe today?

Who is we? The church believes in the Bible and the Bible only. Not some obscure author who has not authority whatsoever.

I recall a book in the bookcase of my childhood home by Wilcox on the Early and Latter Rain. I suppose that book gave him the status of an authority on the Holy Spirit.

Knowing Ellen and James White, does that make him an authority in how many areas?

[Johann]

Who is this "obscure" author whose counsel is so easily dismissed? Perhaps who the author is, is not as important as to when and where his counsel was printed, which was...

The statement regarding women’s ordination was printed on the same page as an Ellen White article on obedience in the Signs of the Times, January 24, 1895. If Ellen White did not endorse this position, she would likely have spoken on it or written to correct it.

But she remained silent as it regards this author and the publication. That speaks volumes as to the position of leadership in 1895 regarding ordination. I will leave it to the reader to determine whether that position was acceptable then or now, whether they were right or wrong. But one thing is clear, Ellen White didn't have a problem with they're position at that time or any time thereafter as it concerns this article.

"We do not believe that it is in God’s plan to give to women the ordained offices of the church."

Note: "We", plural, the editors and authors of the Signs of the Times at the very least. I would submit, the position of the leadership of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, including Sister White in the "we".

“The primary object of our college was to afford young men an opportunity to study for the ministry and to prepare young persons of both sexes to become workers in the various branches of the cause.” (Testimonies, volume 5, page 60)

The issue is very clear to me. And in no way is any of this meant to disparage the needful and wonderful work of women in the Church.

just passing through....

Now that I am just approaching 80 years of age I am old enough to having been taught at Emmanuel Missionary College that the word "we" was still then in universal use by editors as a first person personal pronoun singular because an editor assumes greater authority than the average reader.

We also know that Ellen G White did not comment on everything she disagreed with in the writings of other SDA authors or editors of her days. Her silence is, therefore, no proof of her endorsement of everything that was written in our publications in her days.

[ClubV12]

The statement from Volume 5 of the Testimonies was included in my original post because it is in complete harmony with the Signs article. There is no need to comment or correct that which is obvious. Ellen White, like the bible, is most often best interpreted by a simple reading of the quote or verse and taking it at face value. This assumes your reading said quote or verse with a humble, teachable spirit looking for truth, not looking for some quote or verse to sustain your already formed opinion. Paul commented on those who do this as wresting his words to their own destruction. Proceed with caution....

"The primary object of our college was to afford young MEN an opportunity to study for the ministry and to prepare young persons of both sexes to become workers in the various branches of the cause." Testimonies, volume 5, page 60