Pastors David Asscherick and Ron Du Preez VOTE YES on Women's Ordinati

[Johann]

Quote:

I think we should ordain women. As mothers.

EGW says this is her highest calling.

if God has called and a woman responds to that call, will ordination make any whit of a difference in her success?

really now.

unless an ordained mother will get extra money every month to provide for her children, an assistant so she doesn't have to get up during the night, and a new wardrobe, and a better car. an a vacation every year.

maybe it is a mistake to coincide ordination with expanded privileges, increase of pay and other human proscribed designations. keep them separate and see where men stand on ordination.

If ordination was purely a spiritual matter... and no earthly rewards...

hmmmm

debbym

Would some of us have had slightly more sense if our mothers had been ordained as mothers?

[Johann]

What I am saying is that some of those associated with the White Estate are not supportive of the role of women including pastoral ministry or church leadership. That erodes credibility and objectivity in interpreting church historical facts and arguably ambiguous statements by EGW and church leaders of her day. It seems to me that they are spinning their interpretation to match their own POV on WO, rather than simply letter the evidence speak for itself or lead where it may.

A serious concern

[ClubV12]

As it regards the speculation that Ellen White was ordained, Tom says,

"I don't think anyone can draw any significance or reliable conclusion from it..."

And yet, Tom has repeatedly declared that Ellen White was ordained using the same evidence others see a proof she was not!

Indeed, your right Tom, I don't think anyone, even you, can draw a reliable conclusion on the matter. Thus, we should put the rumor that Ellen White was ordained to rest.

[Johann]

I have seen some of her ordination certificates. Have you?

[Woody]

I have seen some of her ordination certificates. Have you?

yes I have. I can verify that they are official, real and authentic. She was indeed ordained.

[Tom Wetmore]

As it regards the speculation that Ellen White was ordained, Tom says,

"I don't think anyone can draw any significance or reliable conclusion from it..."

And yet, Tom has repeatedly declared that Ellen White was ordained using the same evidence others see a proof she was not!

Indeed, your right Tom, I don't think anyone, even you, can draw a reliable conclusion on the matter. Thus, we should put the rumor that Ellen White was ordained to rest.

You have either misunderstood what I said or intentionally twisted it. I was specifically referring to the pencil stroke through the word "ordained" on one of the 6 ordination credential certificates. It is that one word crossed out upon which one cannot draw any conclusion, since that word is not crossed out on any of the other 5 certificates. And the SDA Yearbook, which is an official record of the General Conference consistently lists EGW with the ordained ministers each year from 1884 until her death.

[Woody]

Quote:

And the SDA Yearbook, which is an official record of the General Conference consistently lists EGW with the ordained ministers each year from 1884 until her death.

Yes indeed. This is true. But yet so many want to believe in their own fantasies. We need to stick with facts.

[ClubV12]

I didn't misunderstand Tom, you reference one of several credential papers and conclude it cannot be used to verify ordination or not. I concur, we cannot use any of the credential documents to conclude positively as to the status of Ellen White being officially and formally ordained.

To suggest such documents CAN be used is to continue to promote rumor and gossip, which you acknowledge.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

I was specifically referring to the pencil stroke through the word "ordained" on one of the 6 ordination credential certificates. It is that one word crossed out upon which one cannot draw any conclusion, since that word is not crossed out on any of the other 5 certificates. And the SDA Yearbook, which is an official record of the General Conference consistently lists EGW with the ordained ministers each year from 1884 until her death.

So......1 carries more weight than 5? The official record also promotes "rumor and gossip"? Would it be fair to think that no documentation would convince you that she had been ordained?

Tell us what we are missing!!!

[whatisthis]

Quote:

And the SDA Yearbook, which is an official record of the General Conference consistently lists EGW with the ordained ministers each year from 1884 until her death.

Yes indeed. This is true. But yet so many want to believe in their own fantasies. We need to stick with facts.

Thanx Woody, that is an interesting angle on this! Who better to ordain her than God! Is there perhaps still a lot we can keep learning about what ordination means?

[debbym]

Johann,

really impressive quote you have for a signature line, and your comments are really enlightening,

thank-you for speaking up here along with Tom, and Woody.

debbym

[Tom Wetmore]

I didn't misunderstand Tom, you reference one of several credential papers and conclude it cannot be used to verify ordination or not. I concur, we cannot use any of the credential documents to conclude positively as to the status of Ellen White being officially and formally ordained.

To suggest such documents CAN be used is to continue to promote rumor and gossip, which you acknowledge.

So you are able to read minds? I know exactly what I meant. And it is not what you are saying. You most definitely misunderstood. But if as you claim, you didn't, you are now intentionally twisting my words to serve your POV and wrongly support your continued denial of the facts. I most definitely was not saying anything to support your POV on the matter. Quite to the contrary!

I was referring specifically to the line penciled through the word ordination. I was not referring to the word itself. That word is clearly on all of the certificates that were issued by the General Conference and signed by the General Conference President and Secretary. That only one certificate has what appears to be a line through the letters of that word does not override all the others or the record reflected in the Yearbooks.

I was being charitable when I suggested one cannot draw a conclusion from that line through the word. From an evidentiary perspective it is totally meaningless. There is absolutely no evidence of when or by whom it was done or for what reason. That is why you cannot draw any conclusion from it that anyone had any intent to negate the clear meaning and purpose of the word "ordained" in the document.

[Johann]

Last time I visited Elmshaven a friend who is a retired Bible teacher living in the vicinity took us there. We used two days to examine things, also going back for a second look at some of the things we had seen before. And then we had the excellent local guides.

One of the things displayed was this ordination certificate, and it was the one where the word "ordained" has a pencil mark. Someone has remarked that was a masculine zealot who had brought this card there to make sure people would not get the idea that Ellen was ordained.

Later I have noticed that copies of this certificate are going the rounds. I have noticed the pencil line in the copies is much stronger than in the original. It looks like some eager soul wants us to think that this is the one that really counts. Wonder why?

[Tom Wetmore]

I don't know if the White Estate would allow it, but it would be interesting to have a thorough forensics analysis of the marks on that certificate. With correct analysis one could determine an approximate date range when it was put on the certificate, at least if contemporaneous or not. As some seem to want to speculate that EGW did it, it could also analyze her own origin writing for indications of similarity or differences, i.e., writing instrument used, pressure used in making marks, her own editorial marks on her manuscripts (style/manner of cross outs), etc.

[ClubV12]

I'm NOT misunderstanding any of this Tom. Johann is suggesting the pencil line is a mistake by some zealous person. I'm suggesting Johann is a zealous person reading into the pencil line what he wants to see! You have taken a similiar position.

The fact is, this ONE credential form raises serious questions about ALL the forms. Therefore, NONE can be taken as absolute proof of ordination. The matter of Sister Whites formal ordination remains unconfirmed. Those zealous individuals who see it different will continue to promote speculation, rumor's and gossip as opposed to fact.

[debbym]

Quote:

The fact is, this ONE credential form raises serious questions about ALL the forms. Therefore, NONE can be taken as absolute proof of ordination. The matter of Sister Whites formal ordination remains unconfirmed. Those zealous individuals who see it different will continue to promote speculation, rumor's and gossip as opposed to fact.

I think this is a question of authority. How is God's authority established in families, in individuals, in the community.

the issue of authority is complex because we live in a sinful world where the authority of God is disregarded by us in our nature.

and people who seek to come under the authority of God, through a new heart and mind in Jesus Christ do not want to become enslaved again to their lower nature. If one is holding to a social form and sees this as the holy grail any change in that form would be seen as a threat to one's most basic relationship to God.

and submission to the lower nature wars against submission to the authority of God. If you have an ordained women preaching in your church, then you would fear you were looking at the creation of the devil himself.

the natural conflicts between men and women, the natural conflicts between children and the authority of parents, can easily become blurred with submission to the authority of God through the Holy Spirit.

If by some form, some social form you can be safe and know you have it right, to have any suggestion of a change in that social form would be a pure threat to ones walk with God.

i can see this and understand the fear, at least outrage, and opposition to women's ordination.

debbym

[Tom Wetmore]

I'm NOT misunderstanding any of this Tom. ...

Amazing! Simply amazing!

[Johann]

According to a report by the E G White Estate our people i Australia believed that the words of Ellen White were serious. So after her article about ordaining women appeared in the Review and Heraldk the church in Australia had an ordination service where both men and women were ordained according to the instructions by the Spirit of Prophecy. Even the son of Ellen White, who was serving with his mother in Australia, was among the ministers who officiated at this service.

Some were obedient to the heavenly calling, and yet we have always had the rebels who refuse and they are still among us today.

Who knows, we might have been in the Kingdom if fwe had not constantly had those rebels among us, who even regard themselves as greater saints because of their rebellion.

[ClubV12]

Johann, you might want to loosen up that collar of self righteousness and quit referring to those who disagree with your personal theology as "rebels" and worse. I don't question your sincerity and zeal, I do question your conclusions and interpretations. When I disagree with you, I don't see you as the idiot you tend to portray others as.

The R.H. article is addressing LAYMEN who are to work with the PASTORS and other leaders of the Church. Now anyone can call themselves a Pastor, they need not be on the payroll of the Church, licensed by the Church or ordained by the Church. We have several examples of men who are Pastors that are self supporting, "laymen" in other words. This is proper and good. It should not be confused with the official ordination process by which already licensed ministers are specifically acknowledged to be representitives of the Seventh-day Adventist Church on a world wide basis. To interpret this article as meaning women should be ordained in the same capacity as our Ministers borders on fanatiscism,(not at all uncommon in Australia from what we see of Adventist history).

[Johann]

Ii apologize ClubV12 for the way you feel I was treating you. If that is how you feel about it, it was not very nice of my to do that. Forgive me, please!

[Guest arnie]

Why the issue of women's ordination exists in the SDA Church is ludicrous. This is not a complicated issue. It's simple. Ellen G White, the prophet, was ordained and could perform all the rights as a Pastor in this church and whether she chose to or not is immaterial. It doesn't matter the circumstances or the time in history, whether it was socially ok, or interpreted biblically acceptable 100 yrs ago or now. The fact is she was ordained by the denomination of SDA's. It's time this Church emerged out of the spin zone, face up, stop the hypocrisy, be honest about their own prophet and women in general and do the right thing.

[ClubV12]

Arnie, Ellen White was not ordained in an official capacity by the General Conference of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. We have records of virtually every detail of her life, right down to what she ate for breakfast on any given day! We have no record of the day, time or persons present who participated in an ordination ceremony for Ellen White at any time in her life. Like other women of her era, she was a licensed minister. A license is still required today in many juristictions through out the USA and the world for a person to legally carry out the duties of a Minister.

[Woody]

Why the issue of women's ordination exists in the SDA Church is ludicrous. This is not a complicated issue. It's simple. Ellen G White, the prophet, was ordained and could perform all the rights as a Pastor in this church and whether she chose to or not is immaterial. It doesn't matter the circumstances or the time in history, whether it was socially ok, or interpreted biblically acceptable 100 yrs ago or now. The fact is she was ordained by the denomination of SDA's. It's time this Church emerged out of the spin zone, face up, stop the hypocrisy, be honest about their own prophet and women in general and do the right thing.

Exactly. Home run. And since the church went on record stating she was ordained - it's good enough for me. And for the record - we have no account of James White being ordained either. But the church says he was and that's good enough for me.

[ClubV12]

As Tom might say, "Amazing, simply amazing". Woody and others, repeating the lie that Ellen White was ordained over and over again does not make it truth.

From Ellen Whites own statement:

In 1909 she filled out a "Bio graphical Information Blank" for the General Conference records. On the blank for Item 19, which asks, "If ordained, state when, where, and by whom," she simply inscribed an X. This is the same response she made to Item 26, which asked, "If remarried, give date, and to whom." In this way she indicated that she had never remarried, nor had she ever been ordained.

You can believe what you read on the internet or you can simply ask the G.C., which is, she was not ordained!

[debbym]

Quote:

From Ellen Whites own statement:

In 1909 she filled out a "Bio graphical Information Blank" for the General Conference records. On the blank for Item 19, which asks, "If ordained, state when, where, and by whom," she simply inscribed an X.

she was never employed by a conference as an ordained pastor. she never saw her self in this light.

this is completely different from a women that is employed by a conference as a pastor, they may over time be in line for promotion in her career.

debbym