Pastors David Asscherick and Ron Du Preez VOTE YES on Women's Ordinati

[Guest arnie]

James White does not advicate women's ordination? Ellen White was ordained. How does one reconcile that?

[ClubV12]

Ellen White was not ordained, that is an Adventist rumor. The "proofs", occasionally offered are nebulous, misleading and in some cases forged. She was a licensed minister. A license, in her day and today, is still required to carry out certain duties of that office in States and Countries here and around the world.

[CoAspen]

And the earth is still flat!!!!!!!

[Tom Wetmore]

Ellen White was not ordained, that is an Adventist rumor. The "proofs", occasionally offered are nebulous, misleading and in some cases forged. She was a licensed minister. A license, in her day and today, is still required to carry out certain duties of that office in States and Countries here and around the world.

Not rumor. Not nebulous. Not misleading. Not forged. The denomination's official records show that she was credentialed as an ordained minister from 1884 until she died. The White Estate has several of the original credentials she was issued during that time period.

[olger]

Ellen didn't care about this topic near as much as you do Tom. Why do you suppose that is?

[ClubV12]

"Credentialed", "commissioned as", "licensed" is not "ordained" Tom, but it is "this close". Looks like the rumor mill is alive and well around here...

[Woody]

"Credentialed", "commissioned as", "licensed" is not "ordained" Tom, but it is "this close". Looks like the rumor mill is alive and well around here...

Some credentialed are ordained.

Some commissioned are ordained

Some licensed are ordained.

Need I go further?

Okay - I will.

Some ordained are ordained.

Hope this settles it for once and for all.

[CoAspen]

Reminds me of the Clinton defense! Not believed then, ain't believing it now!

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"Credentialed", "commissioned as", "licensed" is not "ordained" Tom, but it is "this close".

A tree is a tree, well not really, if it is a log or maybe it is now a board or is it a tree if it is charcoal....wait a minute, what is it if it is a seed or seedling? I have never seen a tree as lovely as a....what comes next, I forget??

Oh, thats right, we are splitting hair or is it hair balls! (meow)

[Tom Wetmore]

Ellen didn't care about this topic near as much as you do Tom. Why do you suppose that is?

I suppose you would know how a dead woman from the 19th Century actually felt about the topic.

It really is a mystery, now isn't it?

But I could ask you similarly why you are so much more opposed to it than seems evident from her writings. Why do you suppose that is?

[Guest]

Some ordained are ordained.

No, that would be incorrect. All ordained are ordained.

[Johann]

I have just noticed on his FaceBook that J David Newman is

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Writing a dissertation on how the Adventist practice of ordination comes from the Catholic Church and not from the Bible. Will explain what the NT says our practice should be today.

[Stan]

He must be wise (I have been saying that for a looooong time about how we ordain)

I personally think we should ordain more, if kids feel called by God we should ordain them for that event. etc etc

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Some ordained are ordained.

No, that would be incorrect. All ordained are ordained.

Three possibilities - perhaps Woody is including the just expressed notion that even if a certain part of the Church ordains someone, others think they can nullify it by simply not recognizing it, or he is expressing the idea that some that are ordained by men are not ordained by God, or some that are ordained by God have not been ordained by men.

Given that what we are generally talking about, ordination is a human act of recognizing something. The fact is obvious that not everyone agrees on what is to be recognized. The first possibility isn't so much about ordination as it is about control/authority. Whose recognition (or lack thereof) is authoritative? The second and third possibilities are also about control/authority, but instead of people vs people it is people vs God. Do we usurp God's authority or refuse to accept God's will/leading manifest in the lives of those He blesses and uses?

[Johann]

I personally think we should ordain more, if kids feel called by God we should ordain them for that event. etc etc

Having read quite a bit in the writings of Ellen G. White I conclude that anyone who reads her writings with an unbiased mind understands that this is what she is saying. So you are not far from the truth, Stan.

[Stan]

Thanks Johann.

I long for the day, when people especially kids, feel called to go some place to hold evangelism with www.sharehim.org or similar event, that we bring them up front, lay hands on them and pray for them as they fallow God's leading for what they have been called to do.

[Tom Wetmore]

"Not a hand should be bound, not a soul discouraged, not a voice should be hushed; let every individual labor, privately or publicly, to help forward this grand work. Place the burdens upon men and women of the church, that they may grow by reason of the exercise, and thus become effective agents in the hand of the Lord for the enlightenment of those who sit in darkness."--RH, July 9, 1895.

[Stan]

[debbym]

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Not rumor. Not nebulous. Not misleading. Not forged. The denomination's official records show that she was credentialed as an ordained minister from 1884 until she died. The White Estate has several of the original credentials she was issued during that time period.

she was not ever ordained, but was licensed through the general conference to minister freely in other conferences as an ordained pastor was free to minister in any conference around the world. But She did not marry and bury and baptize.

as long as there was a male who would feel offended as God's child if a woman was to assume to marry or baptize, i can see she would not do it. Women had not been given the right to vote in her day, men were not ready to accept even that much. I believe she wisely did not take on a war for social change even if it was appropriate. It was going to come in time.

are those against WO, also in approval of removing women's right to vote?

19th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution: Women's Right to Vote

Joint Resolution of Congress proposing a constitutional amendment extending the right of suffrage to women, May 19, 1919; Ratified Amendments, 1795-1992; General Records of the United States Government; Record Group 11; National Archives.

The scriptures do say things that did pertain to the times they were living in. We do not approve of polygamy as lived in Biblical times either.

in Exodus 22 if a slave was struck and killed, that human life was not valued equally to a life of a free man or woman. hence the status of slave was not equal though they were equally human. This was clearly stated in the civil laws of Moses. As Christians we would not see this the same today.

http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/egw_credentials/egw_credentials.htm

E. Statement by Ellen G. White's Family

In a letter dated Nov. 17, 1935, Dores E. Robinson replied on behalf of W. C. White (Ellen White's son and Robinson's father-in-law) in response to a query concerning Ellen White's ministerial credentials. He wrote: "[W. C. White] tells me that Sister White was never ordained, that she never baptized, nor did she ever give the ordination charge to others."

Summary

From 1871 until her death in 1915, Ellen White was issued ministerial credentials. From 1871 to 1887 she was credentialed by the Michigan Conference, and from 1884 until her death, she was credentialed as a General Conference Minister. On one of the credentials (1885), the word "ordained" is struck through. (In the 1888 Yearbook she was also listed among the California Ministers.) Throughout the years, her name was listed along with ordained ministers rather than licentiates, although her biographical information sheet and the testimony of her family indicates that she did not receive ordination at the hands of church officials.

Compiled by the Ellen G. White Estate, Inc.

October 2012

debbym

[olger]

Just "feeling" that one is called is insufficient confirmation that the Lord is calling. The deacons selected in Acts were chosen on the basis of their behavior, spiritual comportment and good track record.

[olger]

I think we should ordain women. As mothers.

EGW says this is her highest calling.

[debbym]

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I think we should ordain women. As mothers.

EGW says this is her highest calling.

if God has called and a woman responds to that call, will ordination make any whit of a difference in her success?

really now.

unless an ordained mother will get extra money every month to provide for her children, an assistant so she doesn't have to get up during the night, and a new wardrobe, and a better car. an a vacation every year.

maybe it is a mistake to coincide ordination with expanded privileges, increase of pay and other human proscribed designations. keep them separate and see where men stand on ordination.

If ordination was purely a spiritual matter... and no earthly rewards...

hmmmm

debbym

[JoeMo]

deb,

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if God has called and a woman responds to that call, will ordination make any whit of a difference in her success?

Your spiritual insight continues to amaze me. I'm so glad you are here! You have a way with words that I could only dream of having (or be gifted by God to have). You have that gift!

[Tom Wetmore]

Compiled by the Ellen G. White Estate, Inc.

October 2012

debbym

I am fairly certain that the individual in the White Estate that prepare that was not supportive of WO, so would not be considered an unbiased interpreter of the historical facts relating to the General Conference recognizing EGW as being ordained by issuing those credentials.

Since a line through "ordained" on one certificate for one year is inconsistent with the official records for that year and all the other years, it seems highly unlikely that that pencil stroke was put there during EGW's lifetime or even by her. I don't think anyone can draw any significance or reliable conclusion from it. And the other ordained minister credential certificates of EGW that still exist do not have anything crossed out.

The date for the White Estate compilation is a bit deceptive since I recall seeing all that long before just 3 months ago. The White Estate may have updated some detail in October.

[debbym]

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The date for the White Estate compilation is a bit deceptive since I recall seeing all that long before just 3 months ago.

This is grievous to me to find out. It would be good to have further sources and validations of what you are saying to really establish these significant points.

I do know the men in leadership around eg white have not historically always been completely supportive of her.

Someone has suggested to me, they sent her to Australia to get her out of their hair. it would be interesting to have a better more accurate understanding of these things. also i am accused for accepting her written materials, and the accusations of her plagiarizing are still thrown at me, and i do not have a ready answer. apparently she was never sentenced or paid fines or was convicted.

was this initiated against her by those who did not like her having leadership responsibility as a woman of God?

this would connect her issue to the women's ordination issue.

debbym

[Tom Wetmore]

It may be this current compilation of this information was put together in October, but there really isn't any part of it that has not been available and published already. It is simply not new information. (Although the statement that the White Estate has 6 original paper credentials of EGW is more than I recall knowing of. We have known they had multiple credentials, but don't recall a specific number identified by the White Estate. Minor detail as to actual quantity though.

I am not suggesting that the persons responsible for producing this compilation of information about EGW are not supportive of her... as a prophet or messenger of God. They are indeed great promoters and apologists for that role of EGW. What I am saying is that some of those associated with the White Estate are not supportive of the role of women including pastoral ministry or church leadership. That erodes credibility and objectivity in interpreting church historical facts and arguably ambiguous statements by EGW and church leaders of her day. It seems to me that they are spinning their interpretation to match their own POV on WO, rather than simply letter the evidence speak for itself or lead where it may.

A fair example is the mental gymnastics to "distinguish" the role of a prophet/messenger to to strip it of any concept of leadership or pastoral responsibility so as to justify it as OK for a women to be called as such in order to not open the door even a crack to allow women int he role of pastor or church leader. It is a hierarchical spin on the respective roles that effectively puts the role of a prophet/messenger as a lower calling than that of pastor or church officer. The logic is severely strained.

But more to the point is the hair splitting distinction without a real difference that makes the lack of physical act of laying on of hands by some lower ranking church officers (usually fellow pastors that are already ordained) as trumping a published act of recognition by the highest governing church authority we have, the General Conference. Ironically the same people who use that flawed logic, quickly express strong support of the General Conference simple declaration of the invalidity of that very same act done currently by lower levels of the Church by simple declaring that the General Conference does not recognize the ordinations done in China and now in the several Unions that have decided to move forward.