Pastors David Asscherick and Ron Du Preez VOTE YES on Women's Ordinati

[Johann]

Why the issue of women's ordination exists in the SDA Church is ludicrous. This is not a complicated issue. It's simple. Ellen G White, the prophet, was ordained and could perform all the rights as a Pastor in this church and whether she chose to or not is immaterial. It doesn't matter the circumstances or the time in history, whether it was socially ok, or interpreted biblically acceptable 100 yrs ago or now. The fact is she was ordained by the denomination of SDA's. It's time this Church emerged out of the spin zone, face up, stop the hypocrisy, be honest about their own prophet and women in general and do the right thing.

Yes, the Seventh-day Adventist church will not fail if it follows the guidance given to us through Ellen White.

Ellen White claims she was ordained by God Himself. Does that make her any inferior?

[ClubV12]

Sister White was certainly ordained of God, not man, and the G.C. recognized that. She worked for 25 years without a ministers license or recognition of ordination at all. She was first licensed by the Michigan Conference, but in subsequent years through the General Conference. Which is why she was filling out a G.C. form. The EG White Estate is clear on this issue, it is their studied position that Ellen White was never ordained by man.

The problem with the ordination question comes about because the G.C. DID recognize her as ordained, but not by man. Thus in some official documents she is listed among the ordained Ministers of her time. As opposed to a second group of licensed Pastors who were not ordained, which included both male and female. Even today we have licensed Ministers/Pastors serving a congregation performing the duties of that office who have not been ordained. Both male and female and they may never be ordained for their entire career. Being a licensed Minister/Pastor and actively working as such does not gaurentee ordination.

[Johann]

Yes, I was a licensed minister for three and a half years, ordained as a local elder. It came as a happy surprise to me that I was already being considered for ordination in 1962, but on the other hand it would have been a great disappointment to me if I had not been ordained for the ministry sooner or later. It is what every licensed minister expects, unless they have failed in their work.

Several of the female licensed ministers have been waiting for this ordination for 20 years or more. It is a great shame on us that we have not fulfilled what was expected of us a long time ago. Too many of us have not tuned in listening to the clear voice from God. So we live under a rebuke.

[ClubV12]

Johann, It is a great shame on us that we have not fulfilled what was expected of us a long time ago, by resisting this effort to ordain women in a most decided manner. Too many of us have not tuned in listening to the clear voice from God. So we live under a rebuke.

The condemnation of those who oppose W.O. continues... Shame on you Johann, you are the one under rebuke.

[Stan]

Having a male only ordination is a take off from 3rd century Catholicism..

[debbym]

we as a denomination do not need any ordination to do the work God has given us to do. E. White demonstrated this. Ordination as we have it is an acknowledgement by man of a pastors growth in his/her career and a prayer for his continued growth.

we have laying on of hands and prayer for anyone in our church who is doing an effort for Christ, and those who we send out as missionaries, those who are ill, those in grief, those in suffering of various kinds. It is a wonderful and sacred service to perform, and anyone in the congregation who wishes to join by adding their hand and their prayer to the service is welcome. It is an anointing service, by the laying on of hands and asking the Holy Spirit to touch and bless and fill the needs, and bring Glory to Christ in that person's life.

what will make a difference in anyone's life is how much are revealing Christ, how much are they dead and hid in Christ, and how much are they standing in their own strength and revealing self.

[Johann]

Having a male only ordination is a take off from 3rd century Catholicism..

It does not require a degree in Early Church History to verify you are stating a fact. This is primarily true of the early church as it developed in what was called the western Mediterranean with he bishop of Rome at the center. Catholic historians will verify this.

Somewhere in that area were the Celts who accepted Apostolic Christianity and brought it with them up through Europe as the first Christian missionaries, becoming fairly prominent in Ireland. As the Roman Catholic missionaries followed with their swords forcing their views on the Christians who were there already, the Celts escaped to the Scottish islands, and from there to Iceland. They were still keeping the Sabbath as the Apostles had taught them and refused to keep the Sunday.

These Celts also rejected the Roman Catholic doctrine of a male only priesthood, and ordained women as ministers.

Archaeologists and historians are finding more and more items which show this historic line, supported by DNA tests of modern Icelanders which show us that we are both descendants of the Celts and the Norwegian Vikings.

The Vikings here accepted Roman Catholic Christianity in the year 1000 AD, but now we find that the Celts had already taught them Christian ideals for centuries. My wife and I are now reading the history of these ancestors, and in June we will take a 3-day trip to the area where several of these Celts lived in the past. About 30 minutes from our place is the more than a thousand year old Christian thermal baptismal pool where quite a number of pagans were baptized. So we have ancient Christian history just about in our back yard.

The minds of many Seventh-day Adventists have long since been influenced by the competing Roman history, shaping their hermeneutics of Scripture by Rome. Fortunately we also have many Bereans among us.

[Johann]

we as a denomination do not need any ordination to do the work God has given us to do. E. White demonstrated this. Ordination as we have it is an acknowledgement by man of a pastors growth in his/her career and a prayer for his continued growth.

we have laying on of hands and prayer for anyone in our church who is doing an effort for Christ, and those who we send out as missionaries, those who are ill, those in grief, those in suffering of various kinds. It is a wonderful and sacred service to perform, and anyone in the congregation who wishes to join by adding their hand and their prayer to the service is welcome. It is an anointing service, by the laying on of hands and asking the Holy Spirit to touch and bless and fill the needs, and bring Glory to Christ in that person's life.

what will make a difference in anyone's life is how much are revealing Christ, how much are they dead and hid in Christ, and how much are they standing in their own strength and revealing self.

What a blessing! I have participated in a number of such services with wonderful results.

[Johann]

The condemnation of those who oppose W.O. continues...

Too bad. Will be praying for you that the Lord will show you His mercy!

[Gail]

It does not require a degree in Early Church History to verify you are stating a fact. This is primarily true of the early church as it developed in what was called the western Mediterranean with he bishop of Rome at the center. Catholic historians will verify this.

Somewhere in that area were the Celts who accepted Apostolic Christianity and brought it with them up through Europe as the first Christian missionaries, becoming fairly prominent in Ireland. As the Roman Catholic missionaries followed with their swords forcing their views on the Christians who were there already, the Celts escaped to the Scottish islands, and from there to Iceland. They were still keeping the Sabbath as the Apostles had taught them and refused to keep the Sunday.

These Celts also rejected the Roman Catholic doctrine of a male only priesthood, and ordained women as ministers.

Archaeologists and historians are finding more and more items which show this historic line, supported by DNA tests of modern Icelanders which show us that we are both descendants of the Celts and the Norwegian Vikings.

The Vikings here accepted Roman Catholic Christianity in the year 1000 AD, but now we find that the Celts had already taught them Christian ideals for centuries. My wife and I are now reading the history of these ancestors, and in June we will take a 3-day trip to the area where several of these Celts lived in the past. About 30 minutes from our place is the more than a thousand year old Christian thermal baptismal pool where quite a number of pagans were baptized. So we have ancient Christian history just about in our back yard.

The minds of many Seventh-day Adventists have long since been influenced by the competing Roman history, shaping their hermeneutics of Scripture by Rome. Fortunately we also have many Bereans among us.

Wow- how fascinating! I hope that you tell us all about your travels!

[phkrause]

Too bad. Will be praying for you that the Lord will show you His mercy!

Why should we have to show mercy to anyone???? for what they believe on this issue????? Are you saying that our salvation is based on this? If we want to except her ordination or not, that should be our right, period. To condemn someone for believing one way or the other is a sad, sad commentary of each of us. It seems to me that the best solution is to not ordain anyone. As has been mention more than once, God is the real ordainer of us.

[Woody]

We should not be questioning those whom God chooses to ordain.

[Daryl]

Has anybody seen the document being referred to here?

Quote:

From Ellen Whites own statement:

In 1909 she filled out a "Bio graphical Information Blank" for the General Conference records. On the blank for Item 19, which asks, "If ordained, state when, where, and by whom," she simply inscribed an X.

she was never employed by a conference as an ordained pastor. she never saw her self in this light.

this is completely different from a women that is employed by a conference as a pastor, they may over time be in line for promotion in her career.

debbym

[Johann]

Originally Posted By: Johann

Too bad. Will be praying for you that the Lord will show you His mercy!

Why should we have to show mercy to anyone???? for what they believe on this issue????? Are you saying that our salvation is based on this? If we want to except her ordination or not, that should be our right, period. To condemn someone for believing one way or the other is a sad, sad commentary of each of us. It seems to me that the best solution is to not ordain anyone. As has been mention more than once, God is the real ordainer of us.

No, that is because he claims there is a condemnation on those who oppose the ordination of women.

[Johann]

Has anybody seen the document being referred to here?

The Ellen White Estate has this record.

[Daryl]

The Ellen White Estate has this record.

In that case it should be settled that EGW herself indicated that she wasn't ordained as an ordained minister.

[Stan]

It comes down to this for the governance model, if you want the Catholic model (and it is not all bad) then you go with the Male only leadership model from early Catholism. Think of the Church of Rome's model of leadership.

Part of the ordination, and this is simplistic, is to be able to provide certain tax breaks as well, as give certain authority to do various rituals.

I for one, would like to see us ordain more people, if a group of young people decide to do mission work, and if we believe they are called by God to do such, we should ordain them.

[Stan]

EGW was ordained, they did not however lay hands on her.

[phkrause]

No, that is because he claims there is a condemnation on those who oppose the ordination of women.

Who is claiming that??

[ClubV12]

PK, I am claiming that!!! I base it on the multiple self righteouss statements of Johann belittling, denigrating and condeming all those who oppose W.O. Johann is doing this in such a way as to appear like the guy in the synagogue, thanking God that he is not like other men.

This is one of his latest comments,

"It is a great shame on us that we have not fulfilled what was expected of us a long time ago. Too many of us have not tuned in listening to the clear voice from God. So we live under a rebuke."

What is a great shame, Johann, is your attitude that the Church and indivduals who disagree with your theology have to suffer these kind of insults (from an ordained Elder, no less). Such negative comments coming from an ordained person make me question the validity of ordination at all! If a minister feels he has failed if he is NOT ordained, that tells me he is working for the recognition of man, not God. The ordination process is looking more and more pathetic, indeed, perhaps we should halt it entirely!

I don't worry much about the often repeated phrase, "Thats based on what the Catholics" did or whatever. So what? It's not like we have to avoid, stop or change every detail of our religion just because it has some paralell with Catholics, or Evangelicals or Republicans for that matter. If it's a good thing, it will stand on it's own merits, I could care less if the Catholics also do it.

[phkrause]

Thanks ClubV12, that's what I thought, was just curious if it would be admitted.

[Tom Wetmore]

Club, what will you do when the General Conference approves the ordination of women?

[Johann]

Originally Posted By: Johann

The Ellen White Estate has this record.

In that case it should be settled that EGW herself indicated that she wasn't ordained as an ordained minister.

The document also states that it was not Ellen White herself who wrote this.

EGW herself stated elsewhere that she was ordained by God and she gives the year and place.

[Johann]

“In the city of Portland the Lord ordained me as His messenger, and here my first labors were given to the cause of present truth.”—The Review and Herald, May 18, 1911. {DG 252.5}

It will be recalled that Ellen White was given her first vision in December 1844, in Portland, Maine. Shortly thereafter she was prompted by the Lord to tell others what she had seen. {DG 252.6}

[ClubV12]

Johann, the same could be said of Paul and some his writings in the bible, written by others. The same could be said of many of Ellen Whites writings in general. Not every word, not every piece directly written by her hand. It is no different with the G.C. questionaire, the answers provided by a trusted aid and approved by Ellen White, in the same way some of Pauls work was done at various times. Your attempt to cast doubt on the G.C. document in question here is duly noted, you should know better than to suggest it is in some way compromised, I'm surprised.

Tom, I will accept and honor the decisions of the General Conference, as I have always done. Even when I don't agree with all the decisions of leadership, ranging from a local Church Board, Sabbath School teacher, Elder, etc. I honor them. I may protest in some way with pen and voice in the appropriate format, time and place. But I will honor leadership because I believe God remains in control even in the midst of profound apostasy, mistakes or just poor judgement by leadership. In that same regard, I pay my tithe and offerings willingly and with a glad heart. I do not make an excuse that they might use those funds for something I don't personally approve. My offerings are to God and are directed through the channels He has established, not some channel I prefer or think is a better idea.

We do need to be careful not to mix up to many forms of ordination. Ordaining children or laymen for a particular work is different than the official ordination for a licensed minister. The official ordination process by man is the subject under discussion concerning licensed women ministers. Being ordained of God, as Ellen White without a doubt was, is different than being officially ordained by a Conference or by the General Conference as an act of man.