An anti-WO attitude approved by Jesus Christ & the Kingdom of Heavens

[debbym]

This is why there is a re-examination of it. A study being made as to how we use ordination in our denomination, the history of it, the meaning and purpose of it. and why or why not use it exclusively on men.

one thought is that we draw from the pool of ordained ministers for persons to be selected for positions in the leadership of conferences, unions, divisions and world conference offices.

it was suggested to me that we had 12 men who Jesus ordained as apostles, and no women so we just cant ordain women now. Jesus never did it.

But Jesus said we would do more things then he did.

It would not have been a good thing for any of those men's reputation to have women traveling and bathing and sleeping in the camp with them..

People already make very low suggestions about Christ even having women followers at a greater distance then the inner circle of 12.

ordination is a promotion of ones career in the hierarchy of pastoral ministry in the sda Church. it is a service of recognition of personal growth, and acknowledging the work of the Holy Spirit in your Spiritual labor as a pastor.

apparently some men feel to acknowledge God is working effectively through a woman in a pastoral position and give her that recognition, by a ordination service, praying for God's continued blessing on her spiritual labor, and give her a pay increase and well... it really bothers a lot of men. not all of them apparently.

i can see that a woman in charge of a church will not be able to effectively intimately mentor males, and essentially not be a male role model for them. If a church can only have one pastor, and share that pastor among two or three or four churches anyway, they seem to prefer men. But there are those situations which i believe a woman pastor is called for. and one that is ordained or not ordained i don't think it makes that huge a difference. it has never mad any difference to me that a male pastor is ordained or not. it just makes a difference for them in recognition of maturity in their profession and job benefits.

but a male minister cannot become an intimate spiritual mentor for females either, so i think it is a great idea to have both. i think the female pastor should work along with the male, rather then stand alone at the head of a church... leaving males without that male role model. then maybe not... i am still thinking about it.

some men feel deeply threatened spiritually at the thought of losing a male pastor, and i don't think anyone is suggesting that would happen.

all the authority in the Church is in Christ and in the Holy Spirit. It is not in us, men or women anyway.

if not for all the human quarreling about it, it is almost a non issue. it is certainly not apostasy from Christ to have a differing view.

[CoAspen]

[Woody]

[ClubV12]

Debbym says,

"It would not have been a good thing for any of those men's reputation to have women traveling and bathing and sleeping in the camp with them.."

That hasn't changed, it was a noted problem in Ellen Whites time and it remains problematic in our day as well. In fact, it is one of the reasons Ellen White NEEDED to be married, to avoid even the appearance of evil.

Is the world more promiscuous today than at other times in earths history? We hear that it is, as some bemoan how the "good old days" were more "religious", or whatever. I'm not sure I buy that in all regards. The flood, Sodom, France in 1798, various segments of time and place could be recounted as exceptionally "sensual". We certainly HEAR about it more often these days, with instant and world wide communication. All in all, little has changed, immorality was a huge problem in Christs day and it remains so.

Sexual excess has long plagued the people of God. The Midianite women snuck into camp and the results were catastrophic for the people of God. In Ellen Whites time some of our pioneer leaders were taken in this type of sin. Today, they sneak into camp easily through the internet! We need to be ever alert.

[debbym]

Quote:

We certainly HEAR about it more often these days, with instant and world wide communication. All in all, little has changed, immorality was a huge problem in Christs day and it remains so.

is this one of the fears of the anti WO folks?

i am coming to the position that women pastors should work along side male pastors, but you see this as a risk if they are not married?

do you see ordination of women in some way contributing to licentiousness? or if male and female pastors working together maybe it would be the potential of the appearance of it?

we are no more moral or self controlled then we were 100 years ago. and there is certainly a lot more media that is sensual and suggestive in tv commercials magazines. what was once not allowed at all is now everywhere.

and when fornication happens or adultery people seem to just shrug and say, well i am human what can you expect. we can expect more from those who say they are Christians.

[ClubV12]

I was simply commenting on your observation concerning women traveling with Christ and His companions in His day. Is it any more acceptable today than it was then?

No. The principles of how CHRISTIAN male and females should relate to each other in the home, public, private, work, traveling, the ministry, etc. have not changed.

Indeed, your point about people shrugging off sexual sin today is well noted!! There never was an excuse, still isn't, never will be.

The ordination issue does not change anything in this regard, for or against. The principles of courtship, marriage, fellowship, interaction between the sexes apply to all Christians yesterday, today and tommorow.

Do ALL ministers, male or female NEED to be married? In my opinion, it's a good idea. But each case needs to be determined individually, we cannot make a blanket statement that includes everyone. It was deemed necessary and right for Ellen White and her unique calling. In the same way it was considered, at some point in her career, she needed a license as a minister. To show to various politicians, heads of state, local officers, mayors or whoever in her various world travels. To show she was a dutifully authorized representative of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

[ClubV12]

I saw a comment by someone about how God allowed man to have more than one wife "back in the day" and thus it was acceptable before God to do so.

Uh, NO, it was NEVER acceptable at ANY time! It was ALWAYS Gods express purpose that a man take ONE wife, period. God allows people to have their own way when they insist on it, it's called "free will".

Mankind has fallen so far we can't even understand what the laws of God really mean anymore. Just like the Children of Israel had to have Moses write down the laws in detail for them to understand, so today we have Ellen White who wrote them out in detail. So we can understand.

[debbym]

It might have also had something to do with her income tax, which may have been different as a minister, this i do not know much about.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

apparently some men feel to acknowledge God is working effectively through a woman in a pastoral position and give her that recognition, by a ordination service, praying for God's continued blessing on her spiritual labor, and give her a pay increase and well... it really bothers a lot of men

it isn't *just* men... but aside from that, why does *anyone* need recognition? If they feel they have been gifted by God, why do they need human endorsement? Kinda gives me a mental image of someone wearing a sandwich board.

And I would like to know, do ordained pastors/pastorettes actually receive more pay than those who are licensed? I've seen conflicting reports about that.

[debbym]

Quote:

And I would like to know, do ordained pastors/pastorettes actually receive more pay than those who are licensed?

it is a promotion in their career. If a minister does not receive ordination after a few years, they have not really obtained success in their field.

the pool of ordained ministers is the group from which selections are made for leadership positions in the Conferences, Unions, Divisions, and World Conference offices.

If you are never ordained it is an indication you are not considered leadership material for these positions. this is one part of it.

i believe the increase in pay is somewhat related, but i am not a Conference payroll accountant.

i do not know much else about the significance of ordination. I know God can ordain you without the service done by other ordained ministers. apparently only the ordained can serve in the ordination service.

i hope to learn much more about it when the global committee makes some reports on their discussions.

i do not think a woman minister ought to be given sole responsibility for a church or several churches. this is just my opinion. I like husband and wife teams of ministers, i think it greatly broadens their ministry.

But any minister's efficiency is from the empowerment of the Holy Spirit, not from an ordination service in it's self.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

If a minister does not receive ordination after a few years, they have not really obtained success in their field.

O.o

Whoa. Is that what you really think??? Is that what everyone here really thinks???

That's got to be one of the most demeaning attitudes coming out of the ordination brouhaha that I have read.

But, aside from that, my question wasn't answered. Or....maybe it was. According to the above view, one who is not ordained is not "successful" in the eyes and minds of parishioners, nor in one's own mind. So, ordination is an emblem of "success"? A parochial Gold Star to symbolically wear on one's chest...

an interesting notion -- but not one to which I personally subscribe..

[debbym]

i would be happy for it to not be true,

this is not suggesting that all ministry apart from ordination is useless,

but that ordination is a confirmation of progress and signal achievement in the ministry of the one ordained.

if it is not a deeper honor, and acknowledgement, and post of greater position, then why do they only allow persons who have been ordained to step into the position of leadership in all of the church structure.

it is an elevation of position, a change of status. if it is not then why is it ever done.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I consider it a sign that one is set apart, recognized as such by God and man. I don't consider it a status symbol. if that is all it is, then the ordination service is an absolute farce..

[ClubV12]

Ellen White noted in her time that in some cases the ordination ceremony was little more than just a "ceremony", it carried no special significance. Even when it is done in the proper spirit and with the blessing of God she also noted that no special power flows into or out of any one involved, but it is, when properly done, a sacred event.

It originates with the Jewish father blessing his children, by laying his hands on their heads. Jacob and Esau is a profound example of this.

I liken it to a PhD Professor attaining "tenure" at a college. Many do not attain tenure and as a result, often leave the teaching profession. They may go into Government work or the private sector, but if you don't get tenure, your career is generally finished at the University level. This is not always a bad thing, some folks don't do well in the structure of a University setting and may thrive outside of it. Without tenure, you really do have to "work" for a living because you have no permanent job security.

I think of some Pastors who are doing good work for the Lord outside of the Conference and "regular lines of work" for the Church. And many have thrived as a result! Ordination is OK, but it may well be "over rated" today, and perhaps has been for a very long time.

Without a doubt, in some cases, ordination is in fact a "farce". But I will leave that between the individual and God.

[Johann]

Ordination is OK, but it may well be "over rated" today, and perhaps has been for a very long time.

Without a doubt, in some cases, ordination is in fact a "farce". But I will leave that between the individual and God.

You are not far from the kingdom in this evaluation. What divides the SDA church today is this question.

The problem is that those who follow the Roman Catholic tradition claim theirs as the "biblical" and "conservative" idea and they are the ones who "OVER RATE" the ordination because they claim the Old Testament priesthood continued in the Roman Catholic church and that we should maintain this Catholic tradition.

Already in 1948 I started examining our SDA traditions as I saw them from the beginning of the 20th century in ministers who made it, and those who failed. I knew God had called me into the ministry and I wanted to learn from the failures and the success of others.

The standards were quite different then. No college requirement, but promising young men were sent to a town to rent a hall, placing hand written notes on telephone poles, and they had a hall full of people for the opening meeting. The conference watched their performance, and if they would deliver 20 baptismal candidates or more each spring for several years for the president to baptize, they were accepted and the ordination was simply the sign of acceptance - or graduation.

Who were the ones who made it? My own mother had the same education as most of the licensed ministers in those days, so around 1928 she was hired as a Bible worker. Most of the decisions for baptism were made in the homes, so it was the work of the women to win the souls. Since they were not regarded as bread winners in those days, the souls won were never credited to their account, but to the male licensed minister who needed them desperately to make a living.

The most successful ministers in those days married the greatest soul winner on the team, so he always had a woman winning the souls for him, for which he would get the credit.

All pastors in those days were primarily evangelists. The local elder took care of the church. That all changed when pastors started hovering over the already established churches, and now they had an ever greater need to have a woman as their soul winner so they could get the credit for what she had done, and stay "ordained". That is why we so desperately need the Roman Catholic view of ordination to maintain this elevated status, something Samuelle Bacchiocchi accepted from his own studies at the Vatican University, and tried to adopt into Adventism with the help of his disciples.

[Johann]

It has been suggested that "thousands" have seen quotes by Ellen White that support ordination of women Pastors. This is obviously not true, or we wouldn't even be having this discussion!

Who has made that claim? Just curious to find out.

[Johann]

I consider it a sign that one is set apart, recognized as such by God and man. I don't consider it a status symbol. if that is all it is, then the ordination service is an absolute farce..

Yes, you are absolutely right.

[Johann]

Originally Posted By: debbym

If a minister does not receive ordination after a few years, they have not really obtained success in their field.

O.o

Whoa. Is that what you really think??? Is that what everyone here really thinks???

That's got to be one of the most demeaning attitudes coming out of the ordination brouhaha that I have read.

But, aside from that, my question wasn't answered. Or....maybe it was. According to the above view, one who is not ordained is not "successful" in the eyes and minds of parishioners, nor in one's own mind. So, ordination is an emblem of "success"? A parochial Gold Star to symbolically wear on one's chest...

an interesting notion -- but not one to which I personally subscribe..

At the beginning of the 20th century licensed ministers who managed to get the help of women to baptize 20 souls each year during his period of trial was accepted into the ministry - and ordained. That was the criteria.

[Johann]

i would be happy for it to not be true,

this is not suggesting that all ministry apart from ordination is useless,

but that ordination is a confirmation of progress and signal achievement in the ministry of the one ordained.

if it is not a deeper honor, and acknowledgement, and post of greater position, then why do they only allow persons who have been ordained to step into the position of leadership in all of the church structure.

it is an elevation of position, a change of status. if it is not then why is it ever done.

Excellent. Would you be comfortable riding a bus if the driver never had a driver's license?

In my childhood I never saw a female driving a bus. Did that mean that a woman cannot drive a bus?

[Gail]

Johann, I always love your point of view!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Would you be comfortable riding a bus if the driver never had a driver's license?

In my childhood I never saw a female driving a bus. Did that mean that a woman cannot drive a bus?

A bus driver LEGALLY needs a license to drive a bus. Faulty logic.

[Woody]

Johann, I always love your point of view!

Same here. I feel he brings out an excellent point.

THanks Johann

[ClubV12]

Johann asks,

"Who has made that claim? Just curious to find out." The claim that thousands have read statements by Sister White endorsing ordination of women Pastors.

Lets review some of Johanns and ClubV12 comments:

I reply to Johanns post suggesting I am denigrating the prophet in some way:

"Johann, it is you who is at work destroying confidence in the Spirit of Prophecy by your wild claims that Sister White endorses womens ordination in her writings. At best, that is your OPINION. You cannot offer even one definitive SOP statement to back up your claim, thus, you injure the confidence in the SOP."

To which Johann relies,

"There are thousands of Seventh-day Adventists in the world today who have read those statements by Ellen White, and therefore believe she is a prophet sent by God. Just you denying their existence does no make it so."

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

"It has been suggested that "thousands" have seen quotes by Ellen White that support ordination of women Pastors. This is obviously not true, or we wouldn't even be having this discussion!"

I stand by that claim, Johann.

Johann says,

"Why should Ellen White tell the church to ordain women if it was against Scripture, like some of you proclaim? Discover the truth for yourselves, and do not let some modern liberal televangelists lead your thoughts away from God!"

Here you make the claim, again, that Sister White endorses ordination of women Pastors. This is simply not true. Indeed, let others discover the truth!

Johann says,

"With all of this agitation against the role of women in our church our great enemy is gaining ground in destroying confidence in the Spirit of Prophecy."

I suggest that the enemy of souls is gaining ground by misrepresentation of the prophets work!

[Johann]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

"It has been suggested that "thousands" have seen quotes by Ellen White that support ordination of women Pastors. This is obviously not true, or we wouldn't even be having this discussion!"

I stand by that claim, Johann.

Good to see that you are not hiding behind the bush. That makes it possible to give you a reply.

Last summer there was a large worker's meeting in the Trans European Division with 1,200 people present. There the division president presented a message where he showed how Ellen White calls for the ordination of women. That takes care of the first 1,200 people.

The Norwegian Union is preparing a book which shows clearly that the ordination of women is fully in accord with the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy. This book is being sent to all of our members in Norway, about 5-6,000.

Do you need any more to make it a thousand? Because you have not read any such statement is no proof that others have not!

[Johann]

Originally Posted By: Gail

Johann, I always love your point of view!

Same here. I feel he brings out an excellent point.

THanks Johann

Thanks, but beware of boosting a dangerous pride!