An anti-WO attitude approved by Jesus Christ & the Kingdom of Heavens

[Woody]

This discussion is so wild and off base - I just don't know where to begin. So will probably just not begin. Fruitless I fear.

[ClubV12]

I understand, Woody,,,

the plain and simple instructions and counsel of the Lord have been justified, put aside, contexted, contested, analyzed, compared to science and ignored for so long it is almost inconceivable for most to comprehend that God really does say what He means and means what He says. It really is that simple...

I, and yourself Woody, are certainly aware of the multitude of threads discussing in depth the issues of cheese, coffee and numerous other very simple, straight forward, not difficult to understand counsel. The primary purpose of such threads is to find a way to justify ignoring the counsel! "Context" is often employed as one such methodology to ignore the counsel!

Been going on so long, it is no wonder so many cannot even begin to wrap they're head around the concept of belief without question.

[CoAspen]

Maybe by not understanding thoughts and ideas in 'context' it gives a person greater confidence in their ability to judge others motives......must have forgot those words 'judge not lest ye be judged'...oh well, life does go on!!

[Johann]

Do things change?

A great reason for not using many photographs in the past was the expense. For printing special cuts had to be made and they were expensive for quality printing.

I was the editor of a youth paper when a new printing process was invented and introduced. Our own press was still using the old machines, but they had so much work that we had to get our paper printed elsewhere for a while where they had the new machines. With the new process printing a picture cost much less than printing a text. We made use of that and had many more pictures in our paper, because we saw no sin in the use of appropriate pictures.

I did a lot of picture taking in the past, and to save money I did most of the processing myself, also for pictures in our books and papers.

The new digital process makes picture taking a lot less expensive than before. Things are changing.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Maybe by not understanding thoughts and ideas in 'context' it gives a person greater confidence in their ability to judge others motives.

Quote:

The primary purpose of such threads is to find a way to justify ignoring the counsel!

Those who want to ignore inspired instructions will simply do so and will not spend much effort in justifying it.

The cited post aabove is very judgemental. There are honest people who struggle to determine the will of God for them.

[debbym]

this thread had spoken nothing to the WO issue for some time.....

it is on to the nature of e white and inspiration.. can we bring it back or move this to a new thread?

[ClubV12]

Johann, I disagree the cost associated with pictures has changed in reality or has changed the principles involved with the counsel. People today still spend BIG money on all kinds of "graphic pursuits". Movie cameras, web, TV, theatre, data plans, IPads, IPhones, the list is endless. Nothing has changed, the counsel is relevant today.

We see right on this forum thread after thread of good excuses, reasons and justification to ignore the SOP counsel. At least here, for most, they are unable to simply ignore the counsel, they need an apparently "good reason" to do so. Adventists are experts at justifying why they can by-pass or ignore the counsel and still feel they are right with God (Laodecia).

To point out, cheese, coffee, bicycles or cameras is not a judgemental process. It is acknowledging said counsel exists. Context it how you will. Johann used the classic Adventist "context" saying pictures were expensive then and they are not now. I disagree, I think this is a classic example of justifying the counsel in order to ignore it and feel good about it!! Pictures remain a serious, expensive and time consuming issue.

DebbyM, I do understand your comment to bring this back to W.O. I also think this current discussion on how we deal with the SOP counsel is relevant to how many are dealing with the W.O. issue!!!

If one is ignoring known counsel, making a deliberate choice to avoid it THAT is deliberate sin. IF that is the case, it is foolish and presumptious to ask God for additional light and guidance!!!! This is fundamentally WHY we are having such serious issues with W.O., "we", as a people, are so far removed from the "blue print", we are deep in the wilderness.

[Johann]

this thread had spoken nothing to the WO issue for some time.....

it is on to the nature of e white and inspiration.. can we bring it back or move this to a new thread?

Do you have a hint why it is turning this way, debby?

[debbym]

club,

the scriptures themselves cannot help us, the counsels of e. white of themselves cannot bless us.

it is the truth of God's character, who he is to us, and our growing relationship, as his Character grows in us, we have more and more in common with God. Can two walk together unless they agree to. God is willing to walk with us, and is ready as we become more and more willing to walk more and more with Him.

the work of the Holy Spirit uses the word of God and uses the inspired words of e white and other Christians too.

as long as we are in our natural heart we can read the bible all day and all the writings of all Christians ever, and never gain anything from it... it is not the words themselves.

it is about who God is, this discussion is centered on the Character of God. Is God able and willing to bring the message of salvation through women ministers, and work through them to make leadership decisions? Women make important decisions all the time. can God not work through them, or is God just not willing to work through them?

do we put God in Box? and limit God?

[ClubV12]

Well said DebbyM, well said. I heartily agree. The law means nothing if obediance doesn't flow from a heart of love. I know I sound like a legalist, often. I appreciate David and am learning what he meant when he spoke of the law, how it was his meditation day and night, how he loved it. The law is a reflection of Christs character. I have need of much more growth, I know I don't follow every detail of the counsel. But I'm willing, it is my hearts desire, my meditation day and night is on the law. I see the beauty, the fairness, the goodness of it. Whether I am following all the particulars or not, I won't lie, justify or excuse myself. To thine own self be true.

I submit, if we cannot agree on the simple, plain testimony, how is it possible we could agree on the weightier matters of the law, like W.O.? I don't know, I know I don't have the answers.

[debbym]

Quote:

I submit, if we cannot agree on the simple, plain testimony, how is it possible we could agree on the weightier matters of the law, like W.O.? I don't know, I know I don't have the answers.

This is an interesting season of time we are living in.

God asks us to exercise more and more faith, and step higher and higher out of our complacency, and lukewarm condition.

we too easily can fall into the idea that our intellectual understanding, and marvelous theology somehow gives us an edge. but it doesn't. It really increases our responsibility, but to be qualified to carry out that responsibility requires conversion of heart, of motive, and change of desires.

to walk with us on this earth cost God everything. God gave up Jesus when he left heaven to come to earth, then he lost him again when he was dying and laid in the tomb.

to walk with God cost us everything. we give up everything when we are born again, but we really have everything to learn. Then we lose everything again when we really understand deeply and experience that matured choice to lay ourselves down for others, and let self lay in the tomb with Christ. This is the greater love then to lay one's life down for his brother. when we really lay our selves down in Christ for our brother... that is the greatest love. that is what Jesus did for us, and we can do for others.

when we can say, i live yet not I... But Christ, then the holy spirit can speak and we come to unity. Jesus always heard the voice of the Holy Spirit. Not by power nor by might, but by my Spirit saith the Lord of Hosts.

I thought the weightier matters of the law were judgement, mercy, and faith.

[Johann]

I submit, if we cannot agree on the simple, plain testimony, how is it possible we could agree on the weightier matters of the law, like W.O.? I don't know, I know I don't have the answers.

Have you tried prayer?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

I submit, if we cannot agree on the simple, plain testimony, how is it possible we could agree on the weightier matters of the law, like W.O.? I don't know, I know I don't have the answers.

Have you tried prayer?

Good Suggestion. But I fear some would rather keep their pet beliefs than to find truth. Sad .... but true.

If one is ignoring known counsel, making a deliberate choice to avoid it THAT is deliberate sin.

[ClubV12]

If one is ignoring known counsel, making a deliberate choice to choose they're way over Gods way, what makes you think your prayer goes any higher than the ceiling?

The Lords guidance is conditional on obediance to His revealed will.

"If we neglect to walk in the light given, it becomes darkness to us; and the darkness is proportionate to the light and privileges which we have not improved. Christ says, "If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!" If we walk in the knowledge of the truth, our light will shine to those around us in spirit, in words, in actions; we will be fruitful branches of the living vine. If we know God’s requirements and claim to love Him, yet cherish sin, God will not hear us when we ask for His blessing; for He does not minister to sin. There are those whose conscience is hardened by habitual sin. They bear no rich clusters of precious fruit, because they are not branches of the true vine. Their prayers rise no higher than their heads, because they are in their prayers presenting only a form of words, whether offered in the church, in the family, or in secret. They receive no strength, because they ask amiss."

The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials. pg 143

This is a very personal issue between you and the Lord. While we do have an obligation to call sin by it's right name, to judge in fact, there are specific guidelines the Church has been given in that respect. "Cheese" is not one of them, saying "cheese" in front of a camera is not one of them. :)

[Woody]

<<< This sinner loves to sin. If I did not love to sin - I would not be a sinner. But a sinner I am.

[Gregory Matthews]

Allright, you have said a lot about cheese. I recall where EGW spoke against cheese in the context of rich foods that were high in fat content.

Most people who understand nutrition would agree that due to the high fat content, cheese is a food that should only be eaten in very limited amounts.

So, in this context, would you approve of someone eating limited amounts of cheese that had NO FAT CONTENT? I remind you that such cheese can be purchased at any large grocery store. You do not have to go to a health food store.

Also, EGW spoke about cheese in the context of a product made from milk. One can easily purchase today cheese that does not contain any milk product. It may be made from almonds, for example. These products did not exist during the time of EGW. Would her comments about cheese apply to these products?

I suppose that you might apply the comments of EGW to the fact that in her day cheese was made from rennet. Today, you can purchase cheese that is not made from rennet, but is of vegetable origin.

My friend, context is important in understanding the thoughts of another.

Sources of Rennet:

Quote:

Animal Rennet

This enzyme is obtained from the stomach region of a suckling mammal, usually a calf or a lamb. Animal rennet is the traditional rennet used to make cheese. Most European cheeses use animal rennet.

Vegetable Rennet

Vegetable rennet is derived from plants. The enzymes are extracted from the plants and modified into a form similar to that of animal rennet. This type of rennet is acceptable for a lactovegetarian.

Microbial Rennet

This is a common enzyme made from microorganisms through a process of fermentation. Common microorganisms include fungi and bacteria. This type of rennet is also acceptable for a lactovegetarian.

While traditional rennet is animal in origin, cheese made form vegetable/microbial rennet is more and more available in the U.S.

A major source of rennet is:

Quote:

Fermentation-Produced Chymosin (FPC)

FPC was the first artificially produced enzyme to be registered and allowed by the US Food and Drug Administration. In 1999, about 60% of US hard cheese was made with FPC[6] and it has up to 80% of the global market share for rennet.[7]

By 2008, approximately 80% to 90% of commercially made cheeses in the US and Britain were made using FPC.[1] Today, the most widely used Fermentation-Produced Chymosin (FPC) is produced either by the fungus Aspergillus niger and commercialized under the trademark CHY-MAX®[8] by the Danish company Chr. Hansen, or produced by Kluyveromyces lactis and commercialized under the trademark MAXIREN®[9] by the Dutch company DSM.

Please note that by 2008, 80% to 90% of comercial cheese in the U.S. was made by the FPC process.

[ClubV12]

Cheese, no context required. No excuses needed. Even a simple man with limited education knows what cheese is.

But this was never about cheese, or bicycles or pictures or even excuses, uh, er, I mean context.

A people unable to grasp even the simplest counsel is ill prepared to deal with a question of womens ordination.

Next up: Gregory explains coffee and why it's good for you!

[debbym]

Quote:

Allright, you have said a lot about cheese. I recall where EGW spoke against cheese in the context of rich foods that were high in fat content.

Most people who understand nutrition would agree that due to the high fat content, cheese is a food that should only be eaten in very limited amounts.

So, in this context, would you approve of someone eating limited amounts of cheese that had NO FAT CONTENT? I remind you that such cheese can be purchased at any large grocery store. You do not have to go to a health food store.

Also, EGW spoke about cheese in the context of a product made from milk. One can easily purchase today cheese that does not contain any milk product. It may be made from almonds, for example. These products did not exist during the time of EGW. Would her comments about cheese apply to these products?

I suppose that you might apply the comments of EGW to the fact that in her day cheese was made from rennet. Today, you can purchase cheese that is not made from rennet, but is of vegetable origin.

My friend, context is important in understanding the thoughts of another.

i thought the objectionable aspect of cheese was it's high mold content, as there is a correlation between mold and cancer. all aged hard cheese, have mold running through, in some kinds of cheese you see it some you don't, as in blue cheese vs cheddar cheese.

mozzarella cheese, cottage cheese, farmers soft cheese, and cream cheese are examples of not aged fresh cheese that do not have the mold.

pie is a high fat food and pie was OK to eat but as a desert and not a main meal every day. butter is a high fat food and eaten sparingly.

food was to be free of grease of all kinds, which was generally from meat or butter, as in fried foods. Greasy fried food are not so great.

[BobRyan]

Cheese, no context required. No excuses needed. Even a simple man with limited education knows what cheese is.

But this was never about cheese, or bicycles or pictures or even excuses, uh, er, I mean context.

The game plan for the pick-and-choose club when a quote from Ellen White cuts across a personal preference, appears to include the rule --

1. "if you don't like what Ellen White said about topic-A then resort to cheese" (or bicycles) - "without really studying the details or knowing what you are talking about".

But when the pick-and-choose club members think that they do have an Ellen White reference for a topic-B of their choice (the Bible as the Word of God - comes to mind) then we have the rule -

2. "go ahead and just give the quote" -- but again it must be done "Without actually studying the quotes relative to topic-B or knowing what you are talking about".

At some point that strategy has to be questioned by someone in the pick-and-choose club when dealing with a quote from Ellen White that cuts across a personal preference.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Personally, I feel that the WO issue will surely become something unstoppable within the SDA Church if single head households in the entire world becomes as prominent as it is in Germany (http://www.directionsmag.com/articles/ne...-germany/226850), Australia (http://au.lifestyle.yahoo.com/marie-clai...ing-households/), and California (http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/23/local/la-me-0623-census-marriage-families-20110623).

FF

[ClubV12]

Is it obvious yet that "we" cannot even agree on the simple counsel? For whatever reason.

It's no wonder we cannot agree on womens ordination. For whatever reason.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

i thought the objectionable aspect of cheese was it's high mold content, as there is a correlation between mold and cancer. all aged hard cheese, have mold running through, in some kinds of cheese you see it some you don't, as in blue cheese vs cheddar cheese.

mozzarella cheese, cottage cheese, farmers soft cheese, and cream cheese are examples of not aged fresh cheese that do not have the mold.

The fat content of cheese is an example with which most people would agree. There are probably l00s of different types of cheese. From that perspective, probably no one statement would fit all of them. There are certainly more statements that could be made.

The so-called soft cheeses, such as cottage cheese, are made by a different process. I decided not to introduce comments on those to keep from complicating the discussion.

[Woody]

hmmm. Sounds like it IS rather complicated. Or at least some are making it complicated in their defense of their pet beliefs about Ellen White which are unsustainable.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Cheese, no context required. No excuses needed. Even a simple man with limited education knows what cheese is. . . .

Next up: Gregory explains coffee and why it's good for you!

1) It seems that you are either unable to unwilling to expalain either what you mean by the word "cheese," and/or to explain what you believe EGW meant by that word.

This raises the question that I mentioned earlier as to what EGW meant and how that word was translated.

2) So, you jump to me and coffee:

First, I have never stated that cheese was good for you. I have never said as to what I personally eat.

What I have done is to ask you to share with us what you understand about what EGW said and how you would apply it.

It is clear that you are either unable or unwilling to share with us your understanding of what she meant. The same is true as to your sharing how her counsel is to be applied.

That is your right. There is not requirement for you to do so. But, there are honest people who are seeking to know waht God has said and how to apply it to their lives.

But, you come across as not wanting to enter into that type of conversation. Rather you would like to build your "straw men" as you did with me in your coffee comment. Once you have built your "straw man" you can knock it down.

[debbym]

there is disagreement on how we approach the authority of God.

The disciples had a very hard time grasping the idea that the authority of God was available to the non Jew also. everything that went with being gentile was happening in these peoples lives. they were not equal with the Jews who knew the difference between the sacred and the common. They were dogs.

How could they be blessed with an outpouring of the Holy Spirit with their lives so out of harmony with everything God had reveals in his laws. Everything about their lives was unholy and wrong.

It would take centuries to breed gentiles that had the right trained parents, and right gender roles and responsible mother and father. And God was -pleased to have their worship? as they were? How could God answer their prayers.

There were Christian Jews who were going to make sure those Gentiles did everything right, and knew all of God's rules so they could be right with God. There were Apostles who could not tolerate Gentile Christians not becoming Jews to follow Christ even when Paul was nearing the end of His life.

The church was in disagreement, but the Gospel was going to all the world. The purposes of God were going forward while they sat around and debated it.

Gentiles were witnessing and ministering the gospel, men and women laboring side by side equally. What a horrible lowering of the standards of humanity this was to so many of the Jewish Christians.

Don't underestimate the Power of the Holy Spirit, don't put God in a box. God's authority is so much higher then we imagine. Able to show mercy and love beyond what we think should be so. This has not changed at all. This does not mean sin in any degree is disregarded by God.