An anti-WO attitude approved by Jesus Christ & the Kingdom of Heavens

[Johann]

Originally Posted By: Johann

Would you be comfortable riding a bus if the driver never had a driver's license?

In my childhood I never saw a female driving a bus. Did that mean that a woman cannot drive a bus?

A bus driver LEGALLY needs a license to drive a bus. Faulty logic.

That was made me fall in love with Abraham Lincoln because I did not discover the logic in all of his arguments when I read his life story as a young child. So I make some mistakes too!

[ClubV12]

I stand by my claim Johann, "thousands" have not read nor can it be found in print a distinct and clear call by Ellen White for ordination of women Pastors.

The matter is easily resolved, simply post ONE such quote by Ellen White calling for ordination of women Pastors! IF such could be found, there would be no debate!

People write books about what they THINK the prophet has spoken. Among them, Dr. Kellogg, Dr. Ford is another. The later deceiving over a 100 ordained Pastors. Many other preach sermons, using an array of bible and SOP quotes to deliver an incorrect message, without realizing they do so. ONLY those who love the law will be able to discern error mixed with truth. For those looking for an excuse to believe what they chose to believe, what they think they believe, many hooks are provided.

This is WHY we need the counsel of the brethren, and yet, that counsel is consistently under attack and has been dismissed. The people grow weary of waiting, they want ordination right now. Korah was convinced he was right, he thought he was doing Gods work when he rebelled against Moses. The issue is no longer one of ordination, it is open rebellion against the highest levels of leadership in the Seventh-day Adventist Church. It is rapidly becoming open apostasy.

Johann says,

"...the division president presented a message where he showed how Ellen White calls for the ordination of women..." Repeating a lie does not make it the truth, anymore than Kellogg or Ford had the truth, and they to quoted Ellen White extensively. Kellogg, Ford, were certainly sincere and their deception so deep they actually thought they were doing the Lords work. I do not question the division Presidents sincerity, clearly he is "sincerely mistaken". It has always been the case that error and lies are best presented within the context of a large amount of truth. Thus, the deception is all the more sinister.

[Tom Wetmore]

...Repeating a lie does not make it the truth...

Nor does repeatedly denying the truth make it false.

[ClubV12]

Easily resolved Tom. The claim has repeatedly been made that there is a clear convincing statement by Ellen White endorsing ordination of women Pastors.

Lets see it!

I claim that is a lie, a misleading statement, a deception. It has been suggested that "thousands" have seen such statements by Ellen White. It has been said a division President has preached it!

Simple programming logic: IF such a statement existed, THEN there would be no debate.

[Woody]

Easily resolved Tom. The claim has repeatedly been made that there is a clear convincing statement by Ellen White endorsing ordination of women Pastors.

Lets see it!

I claim that is a lie, a misleading statement, a deception. It has been suggested that "thousands" have seen such statements by Ellen White. It has been said a division President has preached it!

Simple programming logic: IF such a statement existed, THEN there would be no debate.

Some have eyes but do not see.

[ClubV12]

Come on Woody, surely you can show us ONE such statement so that those of us who are blind and cannot see may be enlightened!

On the other hand, I do admire that saying as it contains much truth. I don't believe it is applicable in this case because, as I've noted earlier, the matter is easily resolved!

[Johann]

I have posted such a statement repeatedly here on clubadventist, and so have others. What is the point in posting it when you don't read it?

[ClubV12]

Johann, I do believe you are avoiding the issue and continuing to deceive the readers of this thread.

I stand by my claim, there is not ONE concise, clear statement by Ellen White that endorses women Pastors being ordained. I have not seen one, the bible research institute of the General Conference has not seen one, Ted Wilson has not seen one, the division President making such a claim cannot present one and you sir, Johann, cannot, have not and consistently refuse to submit one!

[Johann]

Come on Woody, surely you can show us ONE such statement so that those of us who are blind and cannot see may be enlightened!

On the other hand, I do admire that saying as it contains much truth. I don't believe it is applicable in this case because, as I've noted earlier, the matter is easily resolved!

The problem is emerging. A number of Seventh-day Adventist in recent years have fully adopted the Bible study method of Samuel Koranteng Pipim, a former Pentecostal who under the tutelage of Samuelle Bacchiocchi with a degree from the University of the Vatican in Rome have corrupted the understanding of Scripture for so many.

Bacchiocchi taught the Roman Catholic understanding of ordination, and Pipim taught the Bible understanding of the Image of the Beast, which stands in a clear opposition to the understanding of the Bible as taught by Ellen G White. This is our main problem.

That problem is increased by those false interpretations being presented by many adherents as a conservative understanding, when this has absolutely nothing to do with how our pioneers understood the Bible, nor what my Bible teachers taught us at Emmanuel Missionary College back in 1952-1956. They would have regarded this as an evil manipulation of Scripture.

Our Bible teachers back then used the writings of Ellen White extensively because they believed in the leadership of the Lord through the Spirit of Prophecy. That new interpretation makes her writings senseless and useless.

Pipim is still popular even though both the Michigan Conference and the Lake Union Conference have sent warnings out to the world church not to permit his work anywhere. They must have a reason to issue such a warning. He is no longer a Seventh-day Adventist

[Johann]

Johann, I do believe you are avoiding the issue and continuing to deceive the readers of this thread.

I stand by my claim, there is not ONE concise, clear statement by Ellen White that endorses women Pastors being ordained. I have not seen one, the bible research institute of the General Conference has not seen one, Ted Wilson has not seen one, the division President making such a claim cannot present one and you sir, Johann, cannot, have not and consistently refuse to submit one!

In some respects I fully agree with you here. In the days of Ellen White we did not have church pastors as such. My own mother had the same school training as most of the pastors/evangelists had in those days. Around 1928 she was hired as a Bible worker.

From the beginning of the 20th century there were no college requirements. Young men were sent to a town where they had to hire a hall, put up handwritten signs on some telephone poles, and they would have the hall filled on their first meeting.

I have known a number of licensed ministers from those days. Those who managed to present at least 20 souls to the president for baptism for several years were accepted and the ordination was their graduation or acceptance service.

Why did some make it, and not others? Several of those who failed were serving in the churches as local elders, deacons, Sabbath School teachers, while they found some other employment for the daily living in churches where I served as a pastor.

Those who made it had mostly aligned themselves with women to do the work for them, because it was in the homes where the decisions for baptism were made.

Those soul winning women were the ones Ellen White said should be ordained, and not only the males.

A love story ending: The most successful pastors/evangelists married the best soul winning female.

[ClubV12]

I completely concur that the methodology the "Church" has been using in recent decades to interpret scripture is different than the plain and simple methods used by our pioneers and endorsed by the prophet herself. To wit she states that the best biblical interpretation is achieved by a simple reading of the text and believing what is plainly says.

I am an historicists through and through, I accept at face value the methods of biblical interpretation as used by the pioneers and I apply that same reason and logic to the writings of the Lords messenger.

The bible, like Sister White, often presents a paradox that can only be spiritually understood. We are saved by faith, and yet we are bound to keep the law, so which is it? It is of course both, and many have shipwrecked their faith taking to strong a position on one side or the other.

Now as it concerns ordination of women Pastors, the facts are: When you apply reason and logic in a simple way, you will not find a concise and clear statement that resolves women Pastor ordination from either the bible or the SOP. One does not need to have a college education or a theology degree to understand truth and correctly interpret the bible and the SOP on this issue.

I don't care what the Catholic Church may or may not be doing, or what their history is or isn't as it regards the truth of any doctrine. If they happen to agree with Seventh-day Adventists, fine, no problem. If they don't, I don't care. I don't buy the argument that we have to change our theology because someone FEARS it MIGHT be reflective of the Pope!

In the same way, it does not matter what Pimpim or a division President may believe, but when we refuse to consider the counsel of the brethren at large, we are in serious danger of being deceived. We see this principle played out over and over in our history. As I mentioned, Kellogg and Ford are two classic examples! Some chose to believe "the man" while rejecting the counsel of the brethren at large (the G.C.).

I find it disturbing, Johann, that you seem to imply the G.C. cannot be trusted to ascertain truth in this matter and that we, as a people, should listen to this or that individual while ignoring the counsel of the brethren.

[Tom Wetmore]

Club, there is a whole resource thread devoted to just listing all the resources that support WO, including the statements by EGW. You've heard of it. You've complained about it. But have you read everything contained in it? If you haven't, start reading. It is in there if you really want to know.

[ClubV12]

I have read it Tom, I have yet to see a simple, concise, clear statement from the bible or the SOP that endorses women Pastor ordination. In this, I am not alone, there are many others who fail to see this as well. Notably, the General Conference, which is continuing to study the issue.

What I find most disturbing about these discussions is the assumption that those who do not support womens ordination are somehow "blind" to what so many other seem to take for granted. Something that seems so obvious to many.

The great danger here is the same danger Korah faced in his rebellion against Moses. He said all the people are holy, all the people should have a say in how they are governed. He dismissed the God given "chain of command". Ellen White, even though she did not always agree with the General Conference, acknowledged their authority as the highest on earth. WHEN IN session AND properly represented by members from the world wide body of believers.

I will wait upon the Lord to work through His appointed agencies to discern truth on this issue of womens ordination. When that decision is made, for or against, I will honor it, even though I may not agree with it. I will put aside my personal opinion to be in harmony with the body of believers.

[M. T. Cross]

That reminds me a lot of the bible stories where the Jewish people put their faith in the leadership of the Pharisee's. The very ones that told them that Jesus was not who he said he was.........

[ClubV12]

There's the paradox Emptycross, a hook to hang your doubts on, an excuse to ignore those appointed by the Lord to lead His people. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned, only those who have a deep respect and a love for the law will find the balance.

That reminds of what David had to say, "Oh how I love thy law." David love to meditate on it all the day.

Emptycross has touched upon the real problem with womens ordination, how do we, as a people, move forward with respect to the authority of the Church?

[Johann]

As far as I can see the present General Conference administration has not taken a stand, one way or the other, but called for the discussion which way to go.

As long s that discussion is going on I deem it proper to express one's sincere conviction in this area, and that is what I am doing.

As far as Pipim is concerned I followed his writings while he was still a student, and that was when I discovered he was going quite far away from the counsel of Ellen White. My conscience does not permit me to follow what is clearly against my faith, regardless of what decisions anyone else makes, General Conference or any other body.

I was present at Utrecht, and that is all I need to say.There was a strange spirit present, something you also find recorded in the official report. It was an emotional rebellion that took place there.

[ClubV12]

Of course, there are many who have already made the decision not to wait for the General Conference. Are they following their conscience and what does that mean? Does it mean we must take a stand on whatever we happen to believe regardless of what the church board has said, or the local Pastor has declared or the Conference has deemed worthy? If we don't agree with them can we, are we, hiding behind "our conscience" or is that a convienient way of justifying open rebellion?

There are many, right on this forum, that openly declare the SDA Church to be in apostasy and have already removed their membership! There are many, like Emptycross, who bring up the Church in Christs time as an example that justifies open rebellion today!

We know the Church will appear as about to fall. For those who think it has already fallen, you haven't seen nothing yet. The worst is yet to come. I will NOT abandon this ship, I will not remove my support for the appointed leaders of the body of believers. My conscience is clear on this matter, I will set aside my own personal opinion and wait upon the Lord.

Unlike the North Pacific Union who have all but declared they will "wait" and if the G.C. does not endorse womens ordination, THEN they will rebell and endorse womens ordination anyway! Now how devious is that? One side of the mouth declaring unity while the other side threatens rebellion!

Choose you this day whom you will serve with, Korah or Moses. As for me, I will support this body of believers recognized, organized and known through out the world as the Seventh-Day Adventist Church and it's leadership! And to those who declare it is in apostasy and have removed your membership, I think thats fine. Don't let the screen door hit you on the back side on the way out. The Church is better off without you, I offer you zero sympathy or false love. Here is the real love, the real truth, your doomed, your deceived, your in great danger and you know it not.

[M. T. Cross]

But what if that leadership (the GC) is being led by a false spirit Club? I mean these are people that are human after all. If by the Bible stories, even Adam and Eve could be misled, I am sure that such lesser beings as humans are now could be misled with even less effort.

See, if I look back to when I was an Adventist, this is what I seem to recall.

The idea was to bring as many people to the worship of your God as possible. To "save" as many as could be reached. Now I think women in leadership positions could reach a lot of people. If I were the "devil" I most certainly would not want any of that, so I would rail against it in any way I could. So I would get in the heads of the leadership of any Christian church I could and I would twist their holy manual to mean exactly what I wanted them to think it meant. I mean I was always taught that the Devil know the Bible better than anyone. Through out history I would make sure that the most convincing people on the planet (women) were held down and kept in a submissive role so that they could only be used in ways that I chose. That way a precedence is set and I would not even have to try with the simple laymen, cause they would have already been taught that women should be kept out of leadership.

Just a point to ponder. I am not the Devil so I can't really speak for him either.

[ClubV12]

Leadership WILL make mistakes. Whether it be at the local Church, the Conference, the Union or the General Conference level. They are indeed men and women, subject to failure to some degree. Moses struck the rock twice. David killed a man. The list of mistakes of those in leadership is a long one. Ellen White went to Australia even when she was "pretty sure" she shouldn't. Because she didn't have direct light saying WHAT she should do, she submitted herself to the counsel of the brethren. Unity trumps just about everything, it even trumps your "conscience" IF your conscience is like your "feelings", something you can't trust. If you reject leadership, you need to be very clear on what your "conscience" is saying.

I am not blind to the condition of the Church. To a large degree "we" ARE in apostasy. The spiritual condition is appalling as I look around. Our institutions, schools, etc. are far from following the blueprint. "We" need to do what Daniel did in such a case, pray for our sins and the sins of our people. NO WAY Daniel would ever consider abandoning his people, and we see that principle played out over and over in the bible.

Jesus went to the synagoge and preached and supported them as much as was possible. And blessed others who did the same, even while knowing the nation was doomed. The new Christians didn't leave the synagoge all angry and upset, but with tears in their eyes. They were forced out, they had no choice.

Let the G.C. do it's job and lets have faith in God to work it out. I will trust Him and His appointed leaders, even though, at times, I do find it difficult and my faith waivers. I will not abandon ship.

On the issue of women, I fully support, encourage and would like to see women take a more active roll in leadership and bible work. But at this point I don't believe in women Pastors being ordained.

[Johann]

Of course, there are many who have already made the decision not to wait for the General Conference. Are they following their conscience and what does that mean? Does it mean we must take a stand on whatever we happen to believe regardless of what the church board has said, or the local Pastor has declared or the Conference has deemed worthy? If we don't agree with them can we, are we, hiding behind "our conscience" or is that a convienient way of justifying open rebellion?

[Woody]

Thanks Johann. You bring up some valid points. Let me add one more. The commissioning ceremony is no different than the ordination ceremony. Both are acknowledging the person's calling to the ministry.

[ClubV12]

Johann says,

"Today we have at least four unions who have decided for the sake of "unity" to wait another year or two before they transfer their female commissioned ministers to the same category as where Ellen White was for many years."

Waiting for another year or two for the sake of "unity" is not promoting unity or recognizing authority. I once worked at a wrecking yard, a guy comes in and wants me to GIVE him a driveshaft for free. I refuse, he says no problem, he "will wait" until after I close and come back and steal it! This is where the NPU and those other Unions you mention are at. They will wait, for a more convienient season, then they will take what they want. They will steal it if denied. Indeed they SHOULD be ashamed! They are cowards! So deluded they have become proud of their rebellion and hide behind words like "conviction" and "conscience". Korah did the same, as did Kellogg, Ford and all others who have entered into open rebellion by ignoring leadership.

As for those Unions wanting to follow the law of the land, whats next? Following the law of the land on Sunday worship? Endorsing gay Pastors? Where does that road lead?

Johann says,

"...same category as where Ellen White was for many years." I assume by this statement you mean to imply or suggest that Ellen White was ordained by the General Conference as a Pastor? The General Conference has been clear on this issue for a century or more. They have no record of Ellen White ever having been ordained by man or a group of men from any Conference or from the General Conference. This is the fundamental problem with the ordination question: Some people want it SO badly they are willing to misrepresent the truth, engage in gossip, rumors, rebell and even outright lie to achieve the end goal. The bias is profound across the board. The bias on THIS forum is remarkable! This fact alone tells me ordination of women Pastors is not in the spirit of Christ.

[phkrause]

That reminds me a lot of the bible stories where the Jewish people put their faith in the leadership of the Pharisee's. The very ones that told them that Jesus was not who he said he was.........

If you read, forgot off the top of my head, where the disciples ask Jesus why he speaks in parables, he tells them that those that are really looking for the truth will find it and those that are not wont find or understand what he's talking about. I think Club hit on this.

[Johann]

Thanks Johann. You bring up some valid points. Let me add one more. The commissioning ceremony is no different than the ordination ceremony. Both are acknowledging the person's calling to the ministry.

Thanks. You find the commissioning ordination documented in the 2010 edition of the Church Manual, published after the GC session.

[Johann]

Club has a special ability of reading something which is not there. I did not refer to the ordination of Ellen White, and yet he claims I did. I stated that these women are transferred to the same category as where Ellen White was listed by the General Conference, and those documents are still in the archives. Just because someone denies their existence does not mean that they are not there, regardless of how or by whom Ellen White was ordained. She was still listed as an ordained minister.