An anti-WO attitude approved by Jesus Christ & the Kingdom of Heavens

[Johann]

"Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things" (1 Timothy 3:11).

Rejoice always,

G

Trouble is, the original says "women" and the words "their must be" are not in the original Greek. Those words are supplied by the translators, who were under orders by the king not to let the wording of the new translation deviate from the established teachings of the Church of England. This information is supplied by the Bible Society.

[debbym]

definitely all the decisions of the church are not correct.

in the book AA page 403 is described where the leaders in Jerusalem asked Paul to comply with their request to take action to show he was in harmony with his Jewish brethren. they had fully justified their request, but it was carnally based.

as a result Paul was needlessly exposed to danger and his life was prematurely shortened. And it was not God's will for this to happen.

p 398 some even of the apostles and elders were not whole heartedly supportive of Paul and how he labored for the gentiles.

division based on prejudice and habits of thought unchallenged can hinder the work of God on earth.

unity in the Spirit is needed, and without it we cannot measure how the work is hindered. there is no substitute for laying all your heart before God and to surrender all your desires, ideas, and hopes, opinions and plans.

[ClubV12]

All good points DebbyM, mistakes will be made by the leadership and even people like Paul may be unable to discern what is and isn't the voice of God. How quick we are to respond to what we consider error on the part of leadership will determine how quick God will be to deal with our sin.

Ellen White asked the angel how the new Church being formed could be saved from disharmony, disunity. She was told to pattern it after the early Church, by men who were able to rule their own house. Men who understood the need for organization, order, rules and law.

While I concur Paul made a mistake, so did many of Gods special messengers. Moses, David, many others. And yet, God's plan will prevail. My faith is in Him more than the G.C.

Make no mistake, it is a serious thing to reject the request of the leadership of the world Church to wait for this matter to be studied. It is a serious thing for these Conferences and Unions to forge ahead while rejecting that counsel. God means what He says, says what He means. The G.C. is the appointed agency by divine statue over this Church. Before you join with anybody or group of anybodies in denying that authority, you need to be very clear about what and why you are doing that. As for me, I will honor their request to wait and I consider that reguest "the voice of God" speaking to my soul.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

"Let each follow their own conscience..." Seriously bad advice!

What is being ignored from the 'whole' statement, ie, context, is the individuals relationship with God. If we are following our conscience and going in the wrong direction, than where is the relationship? What else do we follow...other people...now that could be very dangerous! Do go against ones own convictions is not being true to their experience with God. WE do not determine what others experience is, based on our own. That is also part, maybe a large part of the issue!

We seem to be having a 'play' on words and definitions.....

Quote:

The G.C. is the appointed agency by divine statue over this Church.

How would that be different than saying the GC speaks for God.....

[ClubV12]

It is dangerous to follow our conscience, trust our feelings or follow our hearts because these are not reliable guides that the Holy Spirit is able to use. The Holy Spirit, God, will and does speak to us, through His word and His testimony FIRST and FOREMOST. No matter what we may "feel" that "feeling" must come into compliance with the instruction the Lord has provided His Church. Our relationship to God is intimately linked with the other members of the body of Christ, no man "is an island". The Lord brings us into relationship with one another so that we may learn humility and learn not to trust ourselves.

When the G.C., is in session and is properly represented by the world body of believers they are the highest authority on earth.

That is not a difficult statement to understand,it is simple, to the point and clear. It is backed up by the Lords divinely appointed messenger, His prophet, Ellen White. Obviously it offends some, causes a lot of confusion for others, fosters a spirit of rebellion in many. Some have even left the Church and removed their membership because their "conscience" won't allow them to deal with the concept. Each of you will have to determine for yourself what this means. It is clear to me, I will honor, support, pay my tithe to, count my membership as precious and submit myself to my brethren. Whether that is by the local Pastor, the Church Board, my Conference, Union or the General Conference. ONCE a mandate, rule, decision, etc. has been made and declared the "law of the Church" we are to put our own opinion aside and not hang out the dirty laundry for all to see if we disagree.

What will you do if the G.C. determines women Pastors should NOT be ordained? Will you rebell or will you submit to that counsel? This is the test coming down the road, get ready!

[Johann]

Woody, there are many ways the "voice of God" can be heard. Through nature, through strangers, through the Church board, through your brothers or sisters, through the G.C., through apparent circumstances. If we stay close to the Lord continually will be able to discern those moments in time when His voice is speaking directly to us.

Club,

Have I now made it clear to you that I did wait for the General Conference before I ordained the female officers in my church?

I did not perform the ordination until I had had word from them.

Shortly after that came word from the General Conference that this ordination also included the ordination of female church elders. Since then the General Conference has also issued the verdict through the Church Manual that church elders/commissioned ministers can be authorized through the conference and division office to perform all the duties of an ordained minister with the exception of organizing churches and serve as conference presidents

Ihe matter is confusing. And since it is confusing I support the notion that we all wait until this has been further clarified by committees, etc.

And because the matter is confusing I am having a hard time condemning my brothers and sisters for what steps they have taken. I do not feel the burden to act as a judge.

[ClubV12]

Johann, I assume you have followed the guidance offered by those appointed over you, or your local Church, as the case may be. That is the right and proper thing to do. It does sound like your talking about ordination of leaders of the Church in various positions. Whereas, I am speaking to a narrow and specific issue of ordination of women Pastors. It remains my opinion, and deep concern, that those Conferences and/or Unions anywhere in the world that have ignored the G.C.'s request to wait for the committee to give further study to this issue have made a very serious mistake.

When the people follow, honor, acknowledge the appointed leadership of those above them then the leadership itself will bear the responsibility for "sin in the camp" or a "blessing on the camp", as the case may be. "Sin" is, of course, doing something you know is counter to the will or law of God. There is no sin where there is ignorance of sin.

No one has the right to hide behind the mistakes of another or of leadership. If YOU know what is the right thing to do and do it not, thats a problem! If your not sure, then you need to honor and support the leadership until God makes the issue clear.

[Johann]

Club,

I have made it clear to you that, as the circumstances are, I support those world areas who have chosen to wait, but at the same time I regard it as a great sin for me to act on behalf of God, thinking he would "punish" those who have a different view than I have. The Bible makes it clear that the Lord has not made us judges of the actions of others.

There is a large committee working with more than a hundred members. They have had their first meeting. It is clear that the members of this large committee is split in about one half for and one half against the ordination of women.

As long as this committee is working I consider it right to make my convictions known wherever that is convenient. Yes, I see that as my burden to make the other side know that this matter can be seen from another side and yet remain a child of God.

I gather that the committee thus far has mainly dealt with hermeneutics and later they will be dealing with ordination as understood by SDA in relationship with the Bible and other churches. After that they might discuss the biblical basis on which women can be ordained. There is a feeling by some members that they might not reach a consensus for or against the ordination of women, but perhaps discard our old, or what some regard as an unbiblical ordination as we practice in our church today.

The work of the committee will not be easy. Some of the members feel that the only workable solution is if we discard the present ordination, and then for the time being recommend the General Conference authorize those fields who are convinced it is the will of God that women be ordained to do so, but then leave the male only ordination in those areas where culture makes it impossible to ordain women.

I know this is in he minds of some of the delegates, but we do not know what is going to happen. It is clear that the committee has not been charged with issuing a verdict for or against the ordination of women, but to find the best workable solution.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

It is dangerous to follow our conscience, trust our feelings or follow our hearts because these are not reliable guides that the Holy Spirit is able to use.

Really?? Again, we must disagree! Your premise is not correct, else how do we hear of many stories that people have found God with out the GC, EGW or even the Bible!!??!! Again , I believe you attempt to limit the power of Gods direct input into the life of individuals. Our experience is with God not a corporate entity.

So many of your ideas are unbelievably RCC! What is your background? Curious....

[ClubV12]

CoAspen, my "premise" is not based on my opinion, this is the counsel of the prophet. Yes, there are many who have found their way to God. Even the "heathen" without a bible has the possibility of understanding, finding and following God and thus can find salvation.

But for those that DO have the bible and the Spirit of Prophecy we are held to a higher standard. The conscience and feelings are simply not a safe guide when you have access to compare those feelings and conscience to the word and the testimony. Many, dare I say most, do not understand HOW the Holy Spirit works. No scripture is of private interpretation. Those who claim they need only the bible and will be led independantly by the Holy Spirit know not what dangerous ground they are on.

Johann, this is not about those who may hold a different view of yours, who is right, who is wrong, who will or won't be punished or blessed. I do believe those Conferences and Unions that have moved ahead of the G.C. and ignored their counsel are on dangerous ground. I do believe in some cases it is open rebellion similiar in nature to the rebellion of Korah against Moses. Not only on the part of some Conferences and Unions but by individuals and people who are "proud" to say they reject the leadership of the world Church. Ted Wilson had it right when he noted there would be serious consequences. He was giving the trumpet a certain, distinct sound. Many have ignored that warning and more, they have denigrated Ted Wilson for even speaking it. This is a very serious matter that makes the ordination question pale in comparison. Korah wanted to be part of the decision making, the chain of command, he wanted to be invited into the counsels of the government of Israel. He was upset when Moses passed him over. This is the same spirit Lucifer had in heaven when he to was denied entry to the counsels of heaven. His "feelings" were hurt! Some Conferences, Unions are "tired of waiting" they want what they want right now, enough talk. Some are preparing to move ahead with ordination regardless of what the G.C. says. Some have already moved ahead. This is far more serious than a simple disagreement on a theology issue!

The Church does in fact have a responsibility to "judge". We will in fact "judge" angels. We cannot judge motive, but we can certainly and must judge action. If the Church did not, no one would ever be censured or disfellowshipped or chastened in any way. The standards would be lowered the very dust as a result.

CoAspen, I could care less how the RCC runs their Church, it has nothing to do with how the SDA runs their Church.

[ClubV12]

Submitted for your consideration of just how serious this issue has become:

Indications are that if the GC does not recommend and vote the ordination of women at the GC World Quinquennial Session of July, 2015, “the NPUC has resolved to then move ahead on its own.” The NPUC—months before the GC session—may unilaterally dismiss July 2015 Quinquennial Session action by the world church. Such action could place at risk the existence of the North Pacific Union as a unit of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Could the Union secede from the Church? It would be a partial fulfillment of prophecy wherein we are told the Church will appear as about to fall!

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Those who claim they need only the bible and will be led independantly by the Holy Spirit know not what dangerous ground they are on.

Have you really studied all of EGW? Your statement contradicts her many statements regarding such.You still avoid the whole relationship issue. Do you trust God to guide your life or do you feel the need for human intervention? I sense a lack of, how can I say it and not sound judgmental, be still and know that I am God with out a human telling you it is indeed God. You do not seem to trust you self to 'know' God with out human approval.

[ClubV12]

I love this Church with a deep passion. The fool has declared he needs nothing but the bible and the bible alone and to be led of the Holy Spirit independantly of everyone else. The pioneers and founding fathers of this Church knew better, they knew they needed each other to find the truth. That no interpretation is a private matter. Remove yourself from the body, ignore the counsel of the body, go it alone and you become the devils lawful prey.

[debbym]

the Union is in disagreement, they are not trying to take down the world headquarters and establish themselves in it's place,

now really,

Korah wanted the people to all follow him and for Moses to become a nobody. he was rich, powerful and influential, and had an incredible following of people who were happy for him to lead Israel. He had massive sympathizers that built his confidence, yes he believed he should be Israels leader. But he did not have the character of God, he did not pray to God to remove his name from the book of life is Israel was not saved from God's wrath.

Moses was a type of Christ.

It was the Moses character that gave him his position.

this is not a profile in any way of the union and their belief that these women were called of God to ministry. They are not asserting anything against the Character of God. they are not demanding power and position without humility and prayer. I am certsain they are prayerful and struggling with this issue.

it cannot be a light matter for them.

then i am not on conversation with them, perhaps i am naive, b ut i cannot imagine what you are describing.

I know none of the churches in my conference wish to be lead by a women pastor alone. This is their expressed preference, and we are in the NPU.

[ClubV12]

DebbyM says,

"...the Union is in disagreement..." AND they are threatening the G.C. that if they don't get their way, they will move forward without the G.C. Sounds like, smells like, walks like, "rebellion".

Well we certainly agree that they disagree! So why are they willing to go so far as to risk being removed from the body of Seventh-day Adventists over this issue of ordination of women Pastors?

I deal with a number of "off shoot" movements and people in my life. I try to minister to them in whatever way I can. I stopped asking them "Why" they left the Church. It doesn't matter WHY. They all have a "good reason". This week it was a nice young man who declared it was because Ted Wilson is a "King". A lady from a different group said it was because the Church has become a corporation. There are about thirteen different off shoot groups in the NPUC, each with a "good reason" they left. I'm sure the NPUC, should the worst case scenario come about, have a "good reason" for leaving. Many times I've heard, "I didn't leave, they FORCED me out." In some cases, I'm sure thats true and I'm OK with them being "forced out". They often wear the concept of persecution as a badge of honor. It doesn't matter "why" anymore.

Korah and his supporters were deeply sincere and moving forward with much prayer and tears. They were convinced they were doing Gods work.

[debbym]

Quote:

My opinion is, the status of a PROPHET, past, present or future, is irrelevant to the discussion of women Pastors ordination at any time in history, past, present or future.

i do understand that you do not see that there is any correlation between the ordained status of E. White and the ordained status of any other woman in the sda church anywhere in the world.

i would not want to limit God, and i believe a women can be sanctified and consecrated and serve God in a pastoral capacity, as any man who does this also needs to be sanctified, and consecrated in order to do this also.

i don't think men should spiritually minister to women alone, just as women should not minister to men alone. there is a vulnerability there that should not be disregarded. and there is counsel to that effect. not to say it cannot happen and all be well.

it is the qualification of the Spirit that enables anyone to serve in this capacity, and to say a man can be qualified by the spirit but a women just does not have that capacity, because God never gave her that capacity... well that concerns me. That limits God.

I do believe in the Priesthood of all believers. and there are so many sda churches who do not have ministers, who are often times well served by women led by the Spirit to minister to their church families. I have seen it.

[Johann]

I love this Church with a deep passion. The fool has declared he needs nothing but the bible and the bible alone and to be led of the Holy Spirit independantly of everyone else. The pioneers and founding fathers of this Church knew better, they knew they needed each other to find the truth. That no interpretation is a private matter. Remove yourself from the body, ignore the counsel of the body, go it alone and you become the devils lawful prey.

Do you also "love" Ellen G White and her fammily when her son "rebelled" against the authority of the General Conference and they ordained female church officers in Australia without the explicit approval from Battle Creek?

[Tom Wetmore]

I do believe in the Priesthood of all believers...

That concept is really is a very significant shift that came about in the NT. It is not just a nice spiritual platitude that all believers after the Atonement of Christ's death no longer needed a human intermediary in their relationship with God. But it also meant the dismantling of that special priestly class that held sway over the spiritual life of God's people. The significance of the various roles in the NT church were more practical and functional and open to all believers, not just a special class of a restricted lineage. There really wasn't the distinction between a clergy class and lay members as we now practice it. All worked together as they were able and gifted. Their spiritual gifts were recognized by the body and they were thus appointed (ordained) to exercise those gifts for the good of the body. The elders, deacons pastors apostles, and bishops did not live apart from the community but were very much a part of it, nor did they wear special vestments as the priestly class of the OT did.

The significance of the Roman Catholic system that most protestant denominations did not really abandon. Separate from and above the ordinary lay member was developed the special clerical class through what became known as apostolic succession and a hierarchy of "orders" from which the concept of "ordination" derives. What really happened was a rebuilding of the the priestly system of the OT that had been done away with by Christ.

This is significant especially with the narrow focus identified by Club at this is only about ordaining women as pastors, as compared with deacons and elders. In the NT church, these roles were not nearly as distinct and hierarchical as we see them today. That the roles and functions of the church were open to the "priesthood of all believers" was simply a recognition the fulfillment of the prophet Joel as spoken of by Peter at Pentecost, God's Spirit poured out on all people, young and old, male and female, Jew and Gentile.

[Woody]

Quote:

Do you also "love" Ellen G White and her fammily when her son "rebelled" against the authority of the General Conference and they ordained female church officers in Australia without the explicit approval from Battle Creek?

Now that's a good one. True. But good. Anything that gets me laughing in the morning time - is good.

[Johann]

The priesthood of all believers was an important part of the Reformation against a deprived system. The basic meaning is that a group of Christians can appoint any individual within the group to function as their spiritual "officer" performing all the essential functions of a pastor. This includes baptism, burial, weddings, etc.

You may distinguish between American, Australian, South African, British and other forms of English, but have you noticed that a church pastor in the Church of England is called a deacon? You will also remember that Philip the deacon performed a baptism.

[Johann]

Quote:

Do you also "love" Ellen G White and her fammily when her son "rebelled" against the authority of the General Conference and they ordained female church officers in Australia without the explicit approval from Battle Creek?

Now that's a good one. True. But good. Anything that gets me laughing in the morning time - is good.

M L Andreasen writes in his autobiography how surprised he was when he discovered the prophet laughing in her own home. So laughing must be OK?

[CoAspen]

I love this Church with a deep passion. The fool has declared he needs nothing but the bible and the bible alone and to be led of the Holy Spirit independantly of everyone else. The pioneers and founding fathers of this Church knew better, they knew they needed each other to find the truth. That no interpretation is a private matter. Remove yourself from the body, ignore the counsel of the body, go it alone and you become the devils lawful prey.

I will continue to rely on the Lord as my ultimate and final guide. As member of the SDA church my whole life, I know what is taught. The Bible and the Bible only with the leading of the H*S has and still is the deciding truth.

You go your way and I will go mine. You may feel comfortable calling my beleif foolish, but I will let God be the judge of that!!

[ClubV12]

CoAspen, I will go the way the Seventh-day Advenist Church, Ellen White and the pioneers taught. Doctrine is decided by the bible and the bible only, but NOT by one man. Our doctrines have been established by a coming together of the brethren doing diligent biblical research and doctrines in dispute have been confirmed by the prophet. In NO CASE were the doctrines of our Church established by one man independant of others.

The pioneer policy on politics and organization was established as that which is not strictly forbidden by the bible is reasonable to consider for implementation. To wit, who would legally own Church property was an early issue. Some said it wasn't biblical, the fact is, we have no biblical counsel one way or the other, so it is not expressly forbidden. Church policy is not set or established by one man, like doctrine, it is established by counsel of the brethren.

The problem with "one man" foolishly thinking he can resolve all issues is readily apparent to any reasonable person considering such an option. People on BOTH sides of this current ordination issue feel strongly there are led of God, following their conscience, serving the Lord and with great sincerity and prayer have come to completely different opinions! In most cases they heartily, even angrily disagree! HOW IS IT POSSIBLE that ALL are led by the same Spirit when coming to completely different conclusions? It is no different than in the Civil War both sides were praying for God to give them victory!

What you have with one man, one bible and the bible only, looking to be led by the Holy Spirit with no counsel of the brethren, seeking to establish a Church policy for the entire body, is a "fool" of immense magnitude! The same applies to any "one man" seeking to establish doctrine. The same applies to one man thinking he can forsake the assembling of himself with the body of believers and chart his own doctrin, his own policy, make up his own rules. This is not how the Church was established nor has it ever worked this way.

For those that think they can solve the issue of womens ordination by; Simply studying the matter for themselves, using the bible, the Spirit of Prophecy and being led by the Holy Spirit, while ignoring the counsel of the brethren, do not understand how the Spirit works. They have lost the spirit of humility and a teachable spirit.

[Woody]

M L Andreasen writes in his autobiography how surprised he was when he discovered the prophet laughing in her own home. So laughing must be OK?

Ummmm:

Quote:

"There is too much jovial talk indulged in among our brethren, as well as our sisters, when in each other's society. There is much jesting and joking and laughing indulged in by women professing godliness. This is all unbecoming, and grieves the Spirit of God." Ellen White in {PH011 24.1}

[debbym]

Quote:

Poster: Woody M L Andreasen writes in his autobiography how surprised he was when he discovered the prophet laughing in her own home. So laughing must be OK?

Quote:

"There is too much jovial talk indulged in among our brethren, as well as our sisters, when in each other's society. There is much jesting and joking and laughing indulged in by women professing godliness. This is all unbecoming, and grieves the Spirit of God." Ellen White in {PH011 24.1}

Ummmm:

are you just pointing out how people misuse e.whites writings.

she was referring to a specific time. when i read something like this i take note that even this can be done to an excess.

i think qualifier is "too much". I suppose there can be an excess of anything.