An anti-WO attitude approved by Jesus Christ & the Kingdom of Heavens

[Woody]

Quote:

What I have done is to ask you to share with us what you understand about what EGW said and how you would apply it.

It is clear that you are either unable or unwilling to share with us your understanding of what she meant. The same is true as to your sharing how her counsel is to be applied.

That is your right. There is not requirement for you to do so. But, there are honest people who are seeking to know waht God has said and how to apply it to their lives.

But, you come across as not wanting to enter into that type of conversation. Rather you would like to build your "straw men" as you did with me in your coffee comment. Once you have built your "straw man" you can knock it down.

Exactly Gregory. I have yet to get him to attend to any of the 'details'. He just insists on maintaining his 'pick and choose' beliefs of Ellen White --- without foundation.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

hmmm. Sounds like it IS rather complicated. Or at least some are making it complicated in their defense of their pet beliefs about Ellen White which are unsustainable.

If you want to say that I have made it complicated, I will not argue with that. I think that there are many things that area complicated.

As to "pet belief" I will point out to you that I have never stated what my belief is on this issue. I have simply asked ClubV12 to tell me more about his/her thinking. I guess he/she does not want to do that. Just does not want to engage in conversation. Well that is his/her right.

[Woody]

there is disagreement on how we approach the authority of God.

The disciples had a very hard time grasping the idea that the authority of God was available to the non Jew also. everything that went with being gentile was happening in these peoples lives. they were not equal with the Jews who knew the difference between the sacred and the common. They were dogs.

How could they be blessed with an outpouring of the Holy Spirit with their lives so out of harmony with everything God had reveals in his laws. Everything about their lives was unholy and wrong.

It would take centuries to breed gentiles that had the right trained parents, and right gender roles and responsible mother and father. And God was -pleased to have their worship? as they were? How could God answer their prayers.

There were Christian Jews who were going to make sure those Gentiles did everything right, and knew all of God's rules so they could be right with God. There were Apostles who could not tolerate Gentile Christians not becoming Jews to follow Christ even when Paul was nearing the end of His life.

The church was in disagreement, but the Gospel was going to all the world. The purposes of God were going forward while they sat around and debated it.

Gentiles were witnessing and ministering the gospel, men and women laboring side by side equally. What a horrible lowering of the standards of humanity this was to so many of the Jewish Christians.

Don't underestimate the Power of the Holy Spirit, don't put God in a box. God's authority is so much higher then we imagine. Able to show mercy and love beyond what we think should be so. This has not changed at all. This does not mean sin in any degree is disregarded by God.

Wow Debbym. Most excellent.

[Gregory Matthews]

I am reminded:

We are clearly informed that we should not eat ham.

Therefore, we should never eat "Wham" as it has those forbidden three letters in its name.

To add insult to injury, "Wham" comes from a "Whog" which we are clearly forbidden to eat.

For those who may not know, Wham is the trademark name of a commercial food product.

[Woody]

[CoAspen]

Plain and Simple is the plan! I can guarantee the person professing to believing that is using context when it comes to the OT. If they do not follow every thing written in the OT as it reads 'plain and simple', then according to their theology, they are defying God.

[Woody]

Plain and Simple is the plan! I can guarantee the person professing to believing that is using context when it comes to the OT. If they do not follow every thing written in the OT as it reads 'plain and simple', then according to their theology, they are defying God.

[ClubV12]

Gregory says,

"I have simply asked ClubV12 to tell me more about his/her thinking." "His, by the way."

I never had any intention of discussing cheese, pictures, bicycles, coffee, movie shows, card playing, Christmas trees, wedding rings, dancing and a host of other issues in depth. What you make of the counsel is between you and the Lord. How, when, where you apply the counsel is between you and the Lord.

In a court of law the Judge typically employs a standard method to any given law to determine if it can be readily understand by most people. The rule is: A person of normal intelligence. The same kind of person Ellen White talks about as the best means of interpreting scripture or her writings.

For what it's worth it should be noted that PhD level theologians and lawyers are NOT people of normal intelligence. I would add to the above two groups, Seventh-day Adventists who have spent years trying to figure out what these simple things actually mean. "Newbies" don't have this problem. Being Christians of "normal intelligence" they tend to accept the Lords counsel at face value. This is no doubt a factor in WHY Jesus did not attend the schools of His time! The Lord has used the simple things to confound the wise.

Context is not a bad thing, it CAN be a good thing! It can also be an "excuse" thing. Weild this tool carefully.

[Woody]

It really irks me when people pick and choose which parts of Ellen White they want to believe and then claim they accept all she says.

[Gregory Matthews]

ClubV12: Yes, it is quite clear that you have never had any intention of discussing the subject.

Your focus has always been on judging the motives of others.

Case in point: Johann responded to you, with a valid comment--one that deserved discussion, even if you disagreed with it.

You said about Johann in response:

Quote:

I think this is a classic example of justifying the counsel in order to ignore it and feel good about it!

Your response to Johann was as you have said about others. You attacked his motives. You charged him with "justifying. . . in order to ignore and feel good."

That is an attack on his motives. I will suggest that you do not know Johann well enough to judge his motives, as you probably do not know anyone else to judge their motives.

Well, I Do not think that God has given you the knowledge that you would need to judge Johann's motives.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

For what it's worth it should be noted that PhD level theologians and lawyers are NOT people of normal intelligence. I would add to the above two groups, Seventh-day Adventists who have spent years trying to figure out what these simple things actually mean. "Newbies" don't have this problem. Being Christians of "normal intelligence" they tend to accept the Lords counsel at face value. This is no doubt a factor in WHY Jesus did not attend the schools of His time! The Lord has used the simple things to confound the wise.

God gave us brains....but not to use or to get 'too smart'!

Is there not anyone that you will not pass judgement against, simply because the see things differently than you. You even drag God into your thinking, bring Him down to your level. God has not confounded anyone, we can only do that to our selves.

This thread has gone seriously off track!

Adios.....

[ClubV12]

The G.C. can no more make a "rule", yes or no, for ordination than they can for cheese (or bicycles, meat, milk, jewlry and so many other issues). Such a rule cannot be applied to every person in every country through out the world.

What works in America will not work in Saudi Arabia.

[Tom Wetmore]

How about a rule that ordination be a function of affinity affirmation?

What has been readily apparent for a very long time and something with which you seem to agree is that ordination as currently directed by the GC "cannot be applied to every person in every country through out the world."

That we insist that all ministerial ordination is to and for the world-wide Church is neither realistic or practiced to any significant degree. Nobody is going to suggest that an Advents pastor of Jewish heritage ordained in Tel Aviv, must available for appointment to be a missionary pastor to a church in Yemen. And the overwhelming majority of pastors never serve outside of the geographic/cultural territory in which they were in ordained.

It is time we recognize this in realistic and pragmatic way. Ordained to the community in which they serve. That is how we regard all other ordination of deacons and local elders. And pastors are ordained in a local or Union conference to serve there. If they are called outside of their home territory, they should be specifically ordained for that widened territorial purpose.

[ClubV12]

I think your right Tom! And I do support the G.C., which doesn't mean I agree with everything they do. I don't agree with all that my local Conference does either, but I still support them. With my personal effort as well as my tithes and offerings. "Protest" must be done in an honorable and unifying way, as opposed to "murmuring and complaining".

Some options for the G.C. are as Tom specified above.

One: Recognizing a more regional rather than global aspect of ordination.

Two: Allowing Divisions, Unions, Conferences to make the decision that is best for them.

The only possible "one rule" solution is "NO" ordination of women Ministers, period. Or the decision may be to allow individual control per Conference. Whatever it is, good, bad, right or wrong, it will be "bound" and become Church law both in heaven and on earth.

You can argue the power of the G.C. till the cows come home but that won't change the "plain and simple" testimony of the prophet: When the G.C. is in session and is properly represented by individuals from around the world it is the highest authority on earth. The "Supreme Court" of the Church. You may file an appeal in an orderly, honorable and dignified manner but the "law" will stand and will be bound in heaven and earth until it is changed.

If you don't accept the authority of the G.C. to lead the Church there is a solution for that: Join the mixed multitude who have removed they're membership from the Church in protest! And, don't let the screen door hit your back side on the way out, the Church is better off without you.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

. . . the Church is better off without you.

Interesting perspective on ministry and evangelism.

[Woody]

Quote:

. . . the Church is better off without you.

Interesting perspective on ministry and evangelism.

Yes it is Gregory. Shocking. But not surprising.

[Stan]

There are people in our Church and other places that we over cater to, sometimes at the cost of doing the mission of the Church.

[ClubV12]

Thanks for that post Stan, I appreciate it.

For those that have the SOP CD, do a search on "better off". You will find a multitude of quotes similiar to this one:

"Many of the Sabbathkeeping Adventists in ----- have been very weak. They have been miserable representatives of the truth. They have not been an honor to the cause of present truth, and the cause would have been better off without them."

Testimonies, Volume 2. pg 109

It is never easy to deliver the straight testimony with a spirit of love and compassion. I often fail, but I am willing to learn and to be led closer to Christ to find it. I have much to learn, much to unlearn.

[Gregory Matthews]

ClubV12: You specialize in that kind of quote, don't you.?

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

There are people in our Church and other places that we over cater to, sometimes at the cost of doing the mission of the Church.

Sometimes true. "'But, I will suggest that more often than not these instances are related to psychological issues than spiritual. NOTE: Yes, I know that psychology and spirituality can be related.

[debbym]

Quote:

What has been readily apparent for a very long time and something with which you seem to agree is that ordination as currently directed by the GC "cannot be applied to every person in every country through out the world."

That we insist that all ministerial ordination is to and for the world-wide Church is neither realistic or practiced to any significant degree.

i can see how this could work.

it might have been a good idea when the church was 1/3 or 1/2 thew size it is today with it's increased diversity today.

i see the increase in diversity will be a weakening, if we cannot hold the spiritual unity with all of the diversity.

as we become more and more surrendered to the Holy Spirit. the Spirit is able to bring us into unity. this is not something we can bring about by our own efforts at all.

[Gregory Matthews]

The question is: What is unity?

Is unity a commitment to a common goal? For example, Evangelism in the most effective way to reach target audiences?

Or, is unity everyone working in all situations in the exact same way? In this example, women might have some functions in some situations that they would not have in others?

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Or, is unity everyone working in all situations in the exact same way? In this example, women might have some functions in some situations that they would not have in others?

I think what I meant to say: Or, is unity everyone working in all situations in the exact same way? In this example, women would not have any function that they could not perform everywhere.

[debbym]

unity is harmony with the Holy Spirit, increasing onesness with Christ.

three passions ruled Christ's life

Love for God

Love for fallen ma

and Zeal for the Glory of His Father

as we enter this life we experience unity with Christ.

as we join in this together we experience unity with one another in Christ.

[ClubV12]

When the third angel finishes the work of the shaking, the Church will be much smaller than it is now. Only at that time will we all be "perfectly united".

Meanwhile, we see through a glass darkly, as it were. We should do all in our power to seek unity while we recognize it's completeness is yet to come.

I'm a student of Daniel 11 and it grieves my heart so many other sincere, humble, dedicated students on this chapter have many diverse views. From verse 1 to verse 45! Just an example of the unity yet to come.

For those who may be wondering about my "third angel" comment:

"Said the angel, "Fearful is the work of the third angel, and awful is his mission. He is to select the wheat from the tares, and bind or seal the wheat for the heavenly garner."

Volume 1; The Early Years pg 290

Thus the work of the third angel is the "shaking".