An anti-WO attitude approved by Jesus Christ & the Kingdom of Heavens

[Johann]

Ummmm:

Quote:

"There is too much jovial talk indulged in among our brethren, as well as our sisters, when in each other's society. There is much jesting and joking and laughing indulged in by women professing godliness. This is all unbecoming, and grieves the Spirit of God." Ellen White in {PH011 24.1}

Perhaps Milian Lauritz had already read this before he went to the home of Ellen in 1909. Here is some of his personal account:

This is from the autobiography of M L Andreasen, quoted by Virginia Steinweg in Without Fear Or Favor, pp. 77, 78.

Does this help us get a real picture of Ellen?

[Woody]

Actually Johann :

I've done a rather extensive study on the topic of Ellen White ,her use of humor and her jovial and hearty spirit.

I contacted James Nix at the White Estate and various others such as George Knight - one of our greatest SDA historians. I also visited Elmshaven and the Adventist Heritage Center in Battle Creek. I will have to see if I can dig up my writings on the topic and if you are interested - contact me and I can share it with you.

But the research demonstrated exactly along the same lines as you have presented.

I fear that once again - we have portrayed Ellen White in the wrong image. A rather common fault I might add.

It's my findings that there is a little Ellen White that is fit for everyone. She is not meant just for the conservatives. It is my determination to in my own way demonstrate this to all. People will have to expand their minds when they read my posts. My posts WILL be misunderstood by some. And I have no problem with that. For my intended audience is probably not that person.

[Johann]

Woody,

I think that was a worthy study. I recall that the first time I visited Elmshaven in 1966 the caretaker spent some time telling us humorous incidents in the life of Ellen White. I still recall two of them:

Ellen was preaching in the Battle Creek Tabernacle when she noticed the audience was smiling. Turning around she notice her son sitting there sleeping.

To those who had come to hear her preached she said, We used to take Willie with us to church in his cradle, and no sooner than I started to preach he'd fall asleep. As you see he has not broken that habit yet.

While at the college in Australia she came in late to the cafeteria for the meal. She immediately filled her dish and started eating. Across the was one the pastors, who tried to get her attention.

- Sister White, did you not forget something?

- No, what?

- Say your prayers?

- Didn't you have a prayer before the meal?

- Yes, we did.

- Then I'm sure the Lord has blessed my food too.

One of the great experiences in my life was visiting Mrs McKibbin, also in 1966, when she was about 100 years old. She told us several experiences she had with Ellen White when she was staying with her in her home. At that time Ellen had just finished writing Patriarchs and Prophets.

[Woody]

Good one about Ellen White not praying. A good gottcha.

[Johann]

I'd love to see your collection

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Ummmm:

Quote:

"There is too much jovial talk indulged in among our brethren, as well as our sisters, when in each other's society. There is much jesting and joking and laughing indulged in by women professing godliness. This is all unbecoming, and grieves the Spirit of God." Ellen White in {PH011 24.1}

Perhaps Milian Lauritz had already read this before he went to the home of Ellen in 1909. Here is some of his personal account:

This is from the autobiography of M L Andreasen, quoted by Virginia Steinweg in Without Fear Or Favor, pp. 77, 78.

Does this help us get a real picture of Ellen?

Not really. Not when the original quote says:

Quote:

From the light which the Lord has given me, our sisters should pursue a very different course. They should be more reserved, manifest less boldness, and encourage in themselves “shamefacedness and sobriety.” Both brethren and sisters indulge in too much jovial talk when in each other’s society. Women professing godliness indulge in much jesting, joking, and laughing. This is unbecoming and grieves the Spirit of God.

She says "They should be more reserved", both men and women "indulge in too much jovial talk", and "indulge in much jesting, joking, and laughing." Notice that she does not say there could be no humor, no laughing, and no jokes of any kind told.

As usual Ellen White has been portrayed in a much different light than what she actually said. Her statement was ripped out of its context and made to say something she never said.

This is dishonesty, plain and simple.

[CoAspen]

I'm going to add this to my list of don'ts.....can some one tell me how much laughing is too much laughing?? Maybe I laugh too much or not enough??

( this is getting trickier and trickier all the time....woody, I still need help with my list....please...)

[Tom Wetmore]

A very big context which many today overlook or are simply unaware of is the era in which she lived, and her own background that had to have had a significant part in her perspective. We willingly allow for such context in some Biblical accounts to say that we don't need to live and conduct ourselves exactly as the ancients did. But their seems to be, in some Adventist circles at least, an extreme resistance to understanding EGW.

One has to understand her stoical and reserved 19th century New England roots to help understand her perspective a bit better.

[Woody]

I have to assume that some of you then make a big stand against compilations? Talking about dishonesty.

[debbym]

Quote:

I'm going to add this to my list of don'ts.....can some one tell me how much laughing is too much laughing?? Maybe I laugh too much or not enough??

( this is getting trickier and trickier all the time....woody, I still need help with my list....please...)

this is what is beautiful about sop, it is about inspiration not about rules.

even the ten commandments are about the deeper spiritual meaning. i think the beatitudes, and the sermon on the mount were about the ten commandments. they are about the principles, which is something the rule makers... the current priests and pharisees, sadly had no concept of.

love is pretty tough to codify as new situations and relation ships and circumstances in need of love arise all the time.

this is why judges are always interpreting the law when they apply it. somethings change, but God doesn't change. and a new situation may reveal something about God no one ever saw or understood before.

the mercy of God was never before seen till the circumstance of sin appeared. it was not God who had changed.

i think God is unchanging about human beings male or female ministering His word, His divine wisdom and love. I think people change in their attitudes and culture. Children can preach the love and wisdom of God, when inspired by God, and they have.

i say don't put God in a box, he uses the foolish things of the world to confound the worldly wise, he uses weak who will rely on him.

[CoAspen]

[joeb]

I have to assume that some of you then make a big stand against compilations? Talking about dishonesty.

All I did to find the context of her statement was search the EGW Estate for a phrase taken from the quote as given here, and any one of several compilations had the entire statement.

It's not hard to find context, if context is really desired.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

I have to assume that some of you then make a big stand against compilations? Talking about dishonesty.

All I did to find the context of her statement was search the EGW Estate for a phrase taken from the quote as given here, and any one of several compilations had the entire statement.

It's not hard to find context, if context is really desired.

I continue to learn more and more about context. It's not just the written word you have to study - but the times and seasons that it was written. You would have to have a Doctorate in Sociology to get full context. And then one has to read the writers mind. I am not good at mind reading. So - I really can't guarantee that I have full understanding of the authors intent. I have difficulty understanding what people write today. Let alone what someone wrote over a hundred years ago.

[Kevin H]

Excellent comments Woody. We, all of us have a mixture of the words used and what we bring to those words due to our backgrounds and understanding. This background would include how much do we know about the literary context, the historical context and the context of the person's life and practices.

With interpeting Mrs. White I see a lot of picking some words and making the assumptions from those words without being aware of other "ballancing" statements that she said, or things she did in her life, other things that were happening at the time etc.

[Woody]

Excellent comments Woody. We, all of us have a mixture of the words used and what we bring to those words due to our backgrounds and understanding. This background would include how much do we know about the literary context, the historical context and the context of the person's life and practices.

With interpeting Mrs. White I see a lot of picking some words and making the assumptions from those words without being aware of other "ballancing" statements that she said, or things she did in her life, other things that were happening at the time etc.

[Gregory Matthews]

To understand what an author writing in the 1800s was saying it can be helpful to consult a historical dictionary.

E.G The word "modest" had some meanings in the 1800s that may differ from how it is used today.

[ClubV12]

The bible is best interpreted by a simple man, with a simple education, simply reading and believing what it says. He doesn't need a lot of context, or history lessons, or a knowledge of Greek and Hebrew. What he needs is a pure desire, longing and love for truth.

Ellen White is no different. When she says, "People laugh to much", it's not hard to understand. Keep reading, keep searching, you will find the balance ONLY if you sincerely seek it. When she advised folks not to buy bicycles, that advice is still solid today. Consider the PRINCIPLES involved with the "story" she was relating. Bicycles were very expensive (they STILL CAN BE), used to show off (CHECK) , used in races (MIGHT BE), used to bring glory to people rather than God (TO OFTEN). It STILL applies to SOME bicycles today and a LOT more than just bikes! Cars, motorcycles, RV's, houses, clothes, and endless list. So many THINK they are spiritual enough to understand when they don't have a clue! Spiritual things are spiritually understood ONLY by the spiritually humble and teachable.

The bible and the SOP share this common trait, you can find that single verse, that single qoute to support whatever "sin" you like. Or to bash someone you don't like. Or to excuse yourself from listening to the counsel because it's "to hard to understand".

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

The bible is best interpreted by a simple man, . . . He doesn't need a lot of context,. . .

Ellen White is no different. When she says, . . . When she advised folks not to buy bicycles, that advice is still solid today. Consider the PRINCIPLES involved with the "story" she was relating. Bicycles were very expensive (they STILL CAN BE),

When you tell us to consider the principle and mention that they are expensive, you are considering the context. That conflicts with your statement above about the lack of need of context.

[Johann]

Excellent comments Woody. We, all of us have a mixture of the words used and what we bring to those words due to our backgrounds and understanding. This background would include how much do we know about the literary context, the historical context and the context of the person's life and practices.

With interpeting Mrs. White I see a lot of picking some words and making the assumptions from those words without being aware of other "ballancing" statements that she said, or things she did in her life, other things that were happening at the time etc.

A real danger!

Just recently I read in the writings of Ellen White that you also have to take circumstances into consideration when reading her testimonies.

[ClubV12]

Context is a good thing, but not always, dare I say not often, required. The counsel is don't buy a bicycle. The question becomes: Does the counsel apply today, or not? You can use context to make excuses or you can use it for understanding.

Understanding WHY the counsel applies should NOT be a requirement to follow said counsel. If you really WANT to drink coffee you can find plenty of good medical studies that suggest it's healthy. You can context yourself right into disagreement with the prophet!

There are a LOT of things from the Spirit of Prophecy that we don't have specific reasons or context for. Thats where faith comes into play.

Take this simple statement: "Cheese is wholly unfit for food." Many of us have heard it, many have rejected it. Many try to explain it, place it in context, describe what kinds of cheese and rationalize a simple statement into something complex.

Step one: "Cheese", no complex definition required. It's unfit for food. Thats clear, easy to understand counsel.

[Woody]

It is rather comical how both sides twist her into saying what they are most comfortable with. It's like there is a contest to see which side can invent the most interesting interpretation. I find most are extremely inconsistent. The words "easy to understand" is laughable and totally inconsistent.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

The bible is best interpreted by a simple man, with a simple education, simply reading and believing what it says. He doesn't need a lot of context, or history lessons.....

Interesting, I would suggest if one is following that statement, lot of the OT is outright ignored or is 'contexting' it quite abit. No need to give all of the examples of what is not followed by modern people today, in and out of christianity! Not contexting is what causes a lot of misunderstanding, tis one of the first rules of understanding. We do it on a daily basis when interacting with people, in the work place, etc. Even in the last 100 years words have taken on different meaning just with in our own culture! It is not about picking and choosing, it is about arriving at the best understanding of what is being said.

Basic rules of conversation are required.

[ClubV12]

Woody says,

"...both sides twist her into saying what they are most comfortable with."

I agree and the solution is to initially put context, circumstances, history, personal views aside and simply read the text or quote for what it is. In a simple way.

Here's another example, Ellen White talks about spending a lot of time or money or having to much concern over "pictures". Now just think about that for a moment, no context applied.

How much have you spent on cameras, film, lenses, professional photographers, etc.? Cost of the Ipad/Iphone, cost of the data plan, time. Hours of home movies and many video cameras later. Hows that Iphone picture update to Facebook thing working for you? Cost of the Ipad/Iphone, cost of the data plan, time spent on Facebook, it adds up. The counsel is simple, clear and obvious, pictures (graphic images, etc.) can be a source of a lot of trouble, wasted effort, time and money. In her day and in our day, it hasn't changed. Now if you WANT "context" be advised, Ellen White had her picture taken on occasion. BOOM, theres the excuse you were looking for to buy that new 300 mm $2,000 lens!

There are so many examples to offer in this regard. God says what He means, means what He says. In the bible, in the Spirit of Prophecy. I don't need to understand the in's and out's and reasons why to follow the counsel. It is best to follow it because God said it was the best possible way to live your life. It will result in the most happiness and the best mental and physical health if you do. Thats reason enough.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Step one: "Cheese", no complex definition required. It's unfit for food. Thats clear, easy to understand counsel.

Well, you clearly do not understand the work of those who have attempted to translate the writings of EGW into other languages.

[ClubV12]

I don't limit the power of God to protect His words and work during the translation process for the bible or the SOP. The KJV has flaws, but it remains a work protected and blessed by the Lord. He will watch over the translation of the SOP in the same way He has done with the bible.