Adventism

[Stan]

Is puzzling

I see so many who grew up run from it.

I see so many others who did not grow up in it, run to it.

Why and Why?

[Naomi]

Hummm, just thinking out loud ......

Quote:

I see so many who grew up run from it.

Many who run from it will most likely one day return. The need to explore the "excitement" of the world, relationships with the unchurched, employment, etc take them away.

Quote:

I see so many others who did not grow up in it, run to it.

It's new, it's different, it provides safety, hope for eternity. And, not something that Mom & Dad, Grandpa or Grandma told them they had to believe, pratice. They discovered it for themselves. That makes it personal.

[Bravus]

Quote:

Many who run from it will most likely one day return. The need to explore the "excitement" of the world, relationships with the unchurched, employment, etc take them away.

Can you think of other, perhaps more mature, reasons? (Not saying you're immature, saying these reasons assume those who leave are...)

[Stan]

I think both have not found satisfaction where they were.

[olger]

That's a reasonable observation.

g

[Stan]

I have often seen those who were brought up in a 'conservative' home become 'liberal' as time went on, and those brought up in a 'liberal' home become conservative.

We all have to do the "seek and yea shall find" if we don't we become an empty vessel of good wishes.

[Stan]

Many who run from it will most likely one day return. The need to explore the "excitement" of the world, relationships with the unchurched, employment, etc take them away.

I think it is more that they feel unfilled and unsatisfied with what they have.

[cricket]

I think it is more that they feel unfilled and unsatisfied with what they have.

Why would a person who runs from Adventism feel unfilled and unsatisfied?

[cricket]

Can you think of other, perhaps more mature, reasons? (Not saying you're immature, saying these reasons assume those who leave are...)

Can you think of other reasons?

[Naomi]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

Can you think of other, perhaps more mature, reasons? (Not saying you're immature, saying these reasons assume those who leave are...)

Can you think of other reasons?

Cricket, I believe that Bravus was referring to the mature intellectuals.

[Naomi]

Originally Posted By: Naomi

Many who run from it will most likely one day return. The need to explore the "excitement" of the world, relationships with the unchurched, employment, etc take them away.

I think it is more that they feel unfilled and unsatisfied with what they have.

Perhaps they know the theory and pratice but have not developed that personal relationship with our creator. In which case as the old rock song goes, Can't get no satisfaction. It becomes just a bunch of rules.

[M. T. Cross]

I think for some, particularly young people, it does become a bunch of rules. Mr. Wetmore said it best in a different thread

But quite seriously, for some, everything is sin, because if it is at all possible to sin in an activity it is forever to be banned and avoided lest one cross that line.

It is quite like the Jewish fence laws instituted by the rabbis around the Torah to prevent the people from accidentally transgressing the Torah. I think maybe we as Adventists have outdone that by our own man-made Adventist lifestyle rules to help make us pure and sinless.

I would say that when I first started drifting away from Adventism that was one of the reasons. It made my life a living hell. There was no possible way I could measure up. Every single thing I wanted to do happened on the Sabbath and I could not participate. I could not go to school functions when I was in high school because they were all sinful.

But as I got older many of the same questions that I had as a young child about the belief system itself started plaguing me once again. Questions I had asked a hundred times as a little kid and had never gotten answers to. Questions I have asked here and never gotten a solid answer to. I think the answers are there, I think that many people don't want to look into them because they are not ssafe, the answers will shake the safety net of what Adventism (Christianity in general) has become. But in a nutshell I left because Adventism did its best to crush my spirit, stunt my growth and damned me everytime I turned around.

Why do some people run to it? Its seductive! It claims to be the one true church of God! You even have your own prophet. Its different than the rest of the Christian faiths and it offers a real tempting safety blanket. It offers an escape from the harshness of the world with a message of hope and eternal life as an end reward. We live in a chaotic world and those very rules that Tom mentioned in the above quote offer a more solid ground to those that need that kind of structured life.

[Bravus]

I guess to me there are things we move away from - as EmptyCross talks about above - and things we move toward - like Naomi mentioned.

My point - and apologies for being too brief and therefore not very clear - was that, while some people definitely leave the church to move toward 'the pleasures of sin for a season', others move toward things that might be more positive.

For me, the move was toward a different understanding of morality and reality. I don't think so much about 'intellectual', but yes, different ways of thinking about issues.

From within the SDA mindset, any move 'out' is also seen as a move 'down' - I get that. From my current perspective, it is possible to move out and up: as one of my friends put it, climb out through a hole and sit on the roof of the church, looking up at the stars.

[M. T. Cross]

others move toward things that might be more positive.

For me, the move was toward a different understanding of morality and reality. I don't think so much about 'intellectual', but yes, different ways of thinking about issues.

From within the SDA mindset, any move 'out' is also seen as a move 'down' - I get that. From my current perspective, it is possible to move out and up: as one of my friends put it, climb out through a hole and sit on the roof of the church, looking up at the stars.

This is more or less what I was trying to say as well. Or I should say where I ended up.

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: cricket

Can you think of other reasons?

Cricket, I believe that Bravus was referring to the mature intellectuals.

No, while that may be a part of it, I am not so sure he was so much referring to intellectuals as the emotional and experiential maturity that comes from living life in the real world. Call it wisdom, but it doesn't exclude non-intellectuals. Maturity and the resulting serious thought and reflection on such things are not the exclusive provence of intellectuals.

[Stan]

Perhaps part of the question could have been reworded different.

IE what do you do when Church does not bring utility (ie satisfaction)

I think it has been a shame that so many does and don'ts were EGW said... I am not opposed to them, and I think she would agree with me, is that should be provided with evidence outside the Bible..

Her influence by current writers on establishing a higher social status reflected on her comments about Jewelery. AND still today, the more upscale you want to live, according to Dress for Success for women, the less Jewelery you wear. Not even sure that book is available still.

Eating somethings we should not eat? Lots of evidence for that.

Coffee? There is some good evidence for drinking coffee, it is easy to find just google it. There is some evidence for not drinking it,... google that,. harder to find. I remember posting a link from the University of Calgary showing a connection between coffee and depression. Almost every one of my friends that are taking antidepressants drink coffee, that is not a scientific statement but an interesting observation.

My final statement is this, we need to 'hold hands together' (figuratively for me :0 ) and support each other as well as share with each blessings and experiences we have had.

[BobRyan]

Is puzzling

I see so many who grew up run from it.

I see so many others who did not grow up in it, run to it.

Why and Why?

Noah's message must have been a challenge for him to give after about 110 years or so.

Adventism holds a number of attractions for non-SDA Christians that are coming in by the 1000's as well as the non-Christians also coming in by the 1000's.

1. The 3 Angel's message of Rev 14 fully explained

2. The seal of God fully explained and its relationship to the 7 last plagues and close of probation.

3. The Investigative Judgment of Dan 7, Rom 2, Rev 14 started already

4. The solution for the soul, and ghosts theories, and prayers to the dead in other churches

5. The solution for the rapture puzzles

6. The solution for free will vs predestination

7. The solution for the origin of evil war in heaven and the temptation in Eden

8. The fact of a last day prophet with loads of information directly from God for the end time saints

9. The balance between OT ceremonial laws ended and the other OT laws that remain relative to diet, the Ten Commandments etc.

10. The full broad context for the Bible doctrine on Atonement that goes even beyond the limited view of "Atoning Sacrifice".

All of this and more - is unparalleled in its appeal and draw to both non-SDA Christians and non-Christians alike.

On the other hand - it is still in essence "Christianity" and so it suffers from the fact that one must always have a "love of the Truth" - always be advancing, always endure and persevere and must always be confronted by the fact that real Gospel truth is - unpopular with the ever-present sinful nature of man.

in Christ,

Bob

[Bravus]

I think there are also personality factors that play out. One of the main appeals of Adventism is the belief that the church 'has the (propositional) Truth'. That will be very attractive to personalities to whom that appeals. Others are much more concerned about small-t 'relational truth'.

One of the things that may explain Stan's original observation - that those born in the church sometimes leave and those not born in it sometimes join - is that these attitudes to truth seem not to be hereditary. If a parent or grandparent has a Truth-seeking personality, s/he may join the church, as may a person now with this same personality. But a person with a truth-seeking personality may be born in the church, and find that the quest for small-t relational truth leads out of the church.

This is perhaps at the root of Stan's questions about satisfaction - if the church is great at satisfying one of these needs, it *needn't* mean it's poor at satisfying the other, but in my opinion it often does.

[JoeMo]

MT and Bravus -

Good points. Through another good friend on CA, I have discovered that, for me, there is a difference between what SDA's state they believe the 28 Fundamentals, and what they practice as a culture. I really don't have a problem with the 28 "Fundies", the way I read them; but I have a huge problem with the way they are applied in certain conservative SDA subcultures. Both of you guys (and me) have been put down on several occasions because of our liberality and open-mindedness. For example, I don't buy everything that proceedeth forth from the mouth of EGW. Furthermore, I fully accept some writings of non-SDA (even some non-Christian) writers. That makes me a "heretic" in the eyes of some. We have pagans and atheists on this forum that say very good, reasonable, and profitable things. Yet they are summarily dismissed by some because they are not SDA's.

Example - when the writings of some very prominent authors - C.S. Lewis and J.R.R Tolkien first came out, they were summarily dismissed as heretical and non- Christian. Their books were even banned by certain denominations. Now, their writings are widely accepted as Christian allegories to the gospel.

Another example. Harry Potter books have been condemned as the tools os Satan; and still are by some conservative groups. Although I would hesitate to put Rawlings in the same class as Lewis and Tolkien, my family read all of them together; and we see them simply as stories, not a pathway to witchcraft.

It's time to get away from drinking the Kool-Aid of man-made denominations folks; and develop our own personal relationship with the divine.

[CoAspen]

Well, I was raised very conservatively both at home and in the church. I spent a good portion of my life in SDA communities and not questioning much, just going along. But when a moment came that I was forced to exam issues on my own, things started to change. It has been a growth experience and never leaving the church nor accepting everything it said. I began to exam issues as they came up and make my own decisions. I quickly saw the misuse of EGW and a study group we had using EGW books eventually came to a close because of compilations, not her writings in context. I can understand why people leave the church, but for me, there was no need to leave as I just came to see everything without the 'rose glasses'. Could not imagine myself anywhere else. The church ain't perfect, after all, it is made up of human beings!!!

[JoeMo]

CoAspen,

I was raised Catholic and became an Adventist. I found a reason to leave Catholicism. As frustrating as I find the culture in some SDA groups, I have yet to find a reason to leave. I wouldn't be surprised though if they found a reason to kick me out some day...

[Gerr]

I was raised a Catholic. Introduced to Adventism at 12 and baptized at 13. Left Adventism and joined the US Navy at 19 "to see the world." I came back because what the world had to offer did not satisfy. I found SDA theology to be most consistent with the Bible. My son, OTOH, was raised SDA, went to church school from K1-12 but now goes to a Baptist church and would have nothing to do with Adventism because of the way he was treated in our schools. His troubles started when he was jumped from 1st grade to 3rd grade. He was a pariah after that. And he was excluded from the cliques in high school academy. Because of his bad experience, we felt it would be best to send him to non-SDA university. To this day, he has nothing good to say about the organization.

[JoeMo]

Gerry,

I have had similar experiences with all seven of my children. We taught them to be free thinkers; and when they would ask certain questions or express certain opinions in school, they were ostracized by both peers and faculty. None went to an SDA college; and only one finished in and SDA academy. None are SDA. Of the two who remained in a christian church, one is married to a Calvary Chapel pastor and the other is a very committed charismatic.

[Gail]

I have read many experiences of persons who took the courage one day to be honest- with themselves, with God, with the world.

And I think that in itself that is a revelation. That might be even the First Base step to God.

Life gives us harsh but true and profound lessons. Many times I wish that the church would provide as profound lessons toward growing our spirituality.

But the Bible DOES provide those questions and revelations that hit our hearts. Choosing to take the side of Christ is easily said with words. The guts involves our spirituality- our HEART, as well as our minds.

[Naomi]

Quote:

The guts involves our spirituality- our HEART, as well as our minds.