Adventism

[JoeMo]

I have read through all of the responses to John 317's question; and most of them have valid points. Diversity is a good thing; and sane people usually have a reason (be it an emotional reason, "faith", a personal experience, or stone cold logic) for being in or out of the church.

I left the church 35 years ago because I loved my drugs more than I loved my Savior. I also left because I knew I would eventually be found out and and disfellowshipped. After I lost my first family cuz I loved drugs more than I loved them. Reality hit me; and I joined a church with the same culture that drove away Empty Cross. I was an on-fire legalist for a while; but I was never "good enough"; or even as good as my fellow church members. When the controversy between the independent ministries and the establishment denomination came to a head in the early 1990's, I saw the "evil" side of the independent ministries, and started dabbling in grace instead of law. About 6 or 7 years ago after I witnessed manifestations that defied natural law and logic, I committed myself to the charismatic movement (along with several other SDA's). I'm still there.

I am a "generic" SDA because I am committed to the 7th day Sabbath and convinced of the soon- coming of Jesus (Advent). Although I have no problem with the 28 Fundamentals as currently stated, I do not buy the whole SDA culture as defined by the conservative element here on CA or at most SDA churches. I think people have to live by a personal creed that they can commit to; but I'm very skeptical of most man-made denominations - especially those who base their writings on the opinions of only 1 or 2 people. I am committed to "generic" adventism; but I respect and honor the beliefs of everyone whose beliefs are based on love - be they Christian or not. My faith is based on a relationship with God based on concepts I have derived from the Bible and impressions from the Holy Spirit (some might say that's my imagination).

People (including ourselves) drive others away from church - not God. We draw away from God- He never draws away from us.

Someone (I think it was cardw) said something to the effect of "if god has a message for us, why doesn't he just come down and tell us himself". He did. His name was Jesus; and He was the express Image of God the Father. He is my truth. The question "What would Jesus do?" sounds trite and shallow; but it is a good guideline.

There may come a time when I am kicked out of the church. Our entire church was removed from the rolls of the church; although individual members are still members of the conference church.

That's my story; and I'm sticking to it.

[John317]

Yes I have a love/hate relationship with Adventism. So do most Adventists. So what is your point?

Try to lay the "hate" to one side.

I'd be interested to know what you love about Adventism.

Does this mean you also love something that you find in Adventists (or at least in some Adventists)? And in Adventist culture?

[cardw]

The "ego" is self. Everyone has a self. "Ego" simply means "I." There's nothing wrong with having a self, or an ego per se.

The difference is that the Bible teaches that people can be full of self, which the Bible says is wrong. Not all people are full of self.

So what is your point?

Are you saying that I am full of self and you're not?

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Yes I have a love/hate relationship with Adventism. So do most Adventists. So what is your point?

I'd be interested to know what you love about Adventism. Does this mean you also love something that you find in Adventists (or at least in some Adventists)? And in Adventist culture?

I care about people, Adventist or not. I don't love what a belief in Adventism does to people. There are isolated truths, but as a whole I find the teachings of Adventism and Christianity harmful at their worst and irrelevant at best.

I find reality to be a much better source of truth than imaginary gods and holy books. In my observation a belief in gods and holy books tends to make good people rationalize harmful things and waste energy in imaginary dangers.

[John317]

There may come a time when I am kicked out of the church. Our entire church was removed from the rolls of the church; although individual members are still members of the conference church.

Why was the entire church removed from the rolls of the church?

[BobRyan]

So you are saying you are not an Adventist in terms of doctrine - but you like People and some people are Adventist? Thus the love hate relationship?

[cardw]

Someone (I think it was cardw) said something to the effect of "if god has a message for us, why doesn't he just come down and tell us himself". He did. His name was Jesus; and He was the express Image of God the Father. He is my truth. The question "What would Jesus do?" sounds trite and shallow; but it is a good guideline.

The problem with your reference to Jesus is that we haven't heard from god for a couple thousand years. Don't you find it all so contrived? We don't accept what other holy books say about god, but we seem to be unwilling to put the Bible to the same tests that negate these other books.

I know people can recover from addiction without god, so that's not a proof. It just means that is the story you told yourself about your recovery.

I'm interested in what is true because truth does set me free. And my standard of truth requires evidence because it is too easy for me to lie to myself to create my own truth. There is clearly not enough evidence to support the idea that Jesus was here on some god's behalf. I tried to make it true for a lot of years and I have had to let go of my own ego and admit that I had absolutely no evidence for what I claimed.

I learned from that I won't accept something unless it has evidence and beyond that I have to say I don't know. But I know when people start to claim to know things that no one can possibly know. And that is basically what Christianity is.

[John317]

Yes I have a love/hate relationship with Adventism. So do most Adventists. So what is your point?

Originally Posted By: John3:17

I'd be interested to know what you love about Adventism. Does this mean you also love something that you find in Adventists (or at least in some Adventists)? And in Adventist culture?

Originally Posted By: cardw

I care about people, Adventist or not. I don't love what a belief in Adventism does to people. There are isolated truths, but as a whole I find the teachings of Adventism and Christianity harmful at their worst and irrelevant at best.

I find reality to be a much better source of truth than imaginary gods and holy books. In my observation a belief in gods and holy books tends to make good people rationalize harmful things and waste energy in imaginary dangers.

Is this the whole reason you have a love/hate relationship with Adventism-- because you care about people?

That doesn't explain why you have a love-hate relationship with Adventism or Adventists, does it?

Are you saying you have a love-hate relationship with all people?

Is there anything apart from their being people that causes you to care about Adventism?

What I'm trying to understand is why you seem to have nothing but negative things to say to and about Adventists and Adventism at the same time that you claim to have a love-hate relationship with them. I see the hate part, but where's the love? Where's evidence that you care about Adventism or Adventists?

[cardw]

So you are saying you are not an Adventist in terms of doctrine - but you like People and some people are Adventist? Thus the love hate relationship?

I think you are overanalyzing this. Love/hate was John's term not mine.

It takes so much to unpack all the assumptions that I just don't bother with most of it.

I care for people period. I don't think about Adventist doctrine for the most part. My attitude is more indifference toward Adventist doctrine because I find it silly. There is so much energy given to this fantasy world created by a fear of the last days and the myriad of trivia that is treated like life and death. That is what I find irritating at times.

[cardw]

What I'm trying to understand is why you seem to have nothing but negative things to say to and about Adventists and Adventisim at the same time that you claim to have a love-hate relationship with them. I see the hate part, but where's the love? Where's evidence that you care about Adventism or Adventists?

I care about truth and Adventism is a lie. Lies hurt people including Adventists.

So if I can point out the truth then people who believe in Adventism will suffer less.

And before you point out that I'm being arrogant, remember you believe that you have the truth and are trying to reduce my suffering.

The difference is that I have a wealth of evidence. I simply have to point out to the myriad of trivial conversations on everything from jewelry or what to do or not do on the Sabbath.

My critique is of Adventism in general, not the individuals. Your critique is of me personally, not my ideas. That is simply more evidence that your belief system is bankrupt and hypocritical.

Notice I'm not saying you are a bad person. I'm pointing out that your belief system is flawed.

On the other hand you are trying to prove that I'm a hateful person and I don't really care about people. It could be true that I'm hateful and I don't care, but that would not negate my statements about Adventism or Christianity.

Personal attack is a sign of weakness in one's belief.

[John317]

You didn't touch on the main part of my post-- which is the question, "What then is it about SDAs or their beliefs that apparently attract (or draw) you?"

Originally Posted By: cardw

I grew up an Adventist and spent a lot of time teaching people about Adventism. I would think it wouldn't be too hard to understand why I might have an interest in Adventism. In some ways I think it might be an amends process for me.

Are you aware of having a hard time completely cutting yourself off from Adventists and Adventism? I think this happens a lot, and I believe it's a good thing, not a bad thing. I also believe there's a good reason for it.

You seem to be saying that by being on the Adventist forum, you feel you might be making amends for teaching people about Adventism, meaning that you are now trying to persuade people to reject Adventism just as you once tried to persuade them to accept it. Is that close to being what you're saying?

Quote:

I'm sure there are other motivations I'm not aware of.

Would you like to uncover those other motivations so you can be aware of them? It might help to talk about them.

[JoeMo]

Things that are not "acceptable" in traditional SDA circles were going on in our church. People were spontaneously receiving prayer languages (i.e., speaking in tongues), raising hands and dancing to praise music, swooning during prayer ministry; and having entire services where testimony didn't leave time for a sermon. People were receiving words from the Lord (prophesying) and laying on handsand successfully healing others (God did the healing, actually). We had several miraculous deliverances (including a gay man and a lesbian woman delivered from practicing their sexual orientation. The gay man even joined the board of a non-denominational Christian church that ministered to gay Christians who were seeking the strength to put their faith above their sexuality). We were studying non-SDA material is Sabbath School instead of the Quarterly. As a church, we attended non-SDA conventions and seminars and helped in non-SDA services. The conference told us to stop all this heretical stuff and climb back into the SDA box. We had a church business meeting, and unanimously voted that we would rather stay on the path God has put us on than stay under the cover of the SDA denomination. our pastor resigned her SDA ministerial credentials; and requested that our church be removed from denominational rolls. The denomination readily honored our request. We are now a truly non denominational Sabbath-keeping church, composed of about half SDA'a and half non-SDA charismatics. I am still a member of the denomination; and do praise music at another SDA church monthly; and team-teach Sabbath school.

I want to emphasize that we did not force these manifestations on anyone. They just started happening. Some people were freaked out and left. Others heard about what was going on and came.

I totally understand that some people find this stuff creepy or even wrong. That's your privilege. John asked an honest question and I'm giving him an honest answer. I still consider myself an SDA; and so does the conference.

[cardw]

Quote:

I'm sure there are other motivations I'm not aware of.

Would you like to uncover those other motivations so you can be aware of them? It might help to talk about them.

How about we talk about your motivations for staying an Adventist? It might help to talk about them.

Again, there must be something wrong with MY motivation. The total base of your idea of truth is on whether or not I have good enough motivations for you.

I understand that you can't accept even the possibility that Adventism is wrong. I understand that. But that has no bearing on whether Adventism is true or not. Just as my motivation has no bearing on whether Adventism is true or not.

We are having the wrong conversation.

[John317]

How about we talk about your motivations for staying an Adventist? It might help to talk about them.

I have written about this hundreds of times in detail. If you want to know what those motivations are, you'll first need to read what I've been writing over the last 7 years. Once you've read them, then ask me question you want to and I will do my best to answer you.

You're the one who said you doubtless have motivations that you're not aware of.

But it is interesting and no doubt significant that you immediately want to switch from talking about your motivations to talking about someone else's.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

How about we talk about your motivations for staying an Adventist? It might help to talk about them.

I have written about this hundreds of time in detail. If you want to know what those motivations are, you'll first need to read what I've been writing over the last 7 years.

You're the one who said you doubtless have motivations that you're not aware of.

But it is interesting and no doubt significant that you immediately want to switch from talking about your motivations to talking about someone else's.

Do you realize that my question was rhetorical? I don't really want to know about your motivations for staying an Adventist.

Catch a clue. I was trying to appeal to your ability to empathize. Do you like being treated that way?

If you don't like being treated that way then stop treating me that way and stick to a conversation that is based in facts, not personal judgments on your part.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

The problem with your reference to Jesus is that we haven't heard from god for a couple thousand years. Don't you find it all so contrived? We don't accept what other holy books say about god, but we seem to be unwilling to put the Bible to the same tests that negate these other books.

I know people can recover from addiction without god, so that's not a proof. It just means that is the story you told yourself about your recovery.

cardw, I don't know if you remember having a similar discussion with me in another thread a few months ago. I find you extremely intelligent and logical; and you make some good points about Adventism and Christianity in general. I think you are brutally honest; but sometimes the emphasis is a little heavy on the "brutally" part.

You strike me as a "facts" guy. If you can't touch it, see it, or hear it, it doesn't exist. IOW, "faith" (hope in things that one can't perceive in the physical realm or understand with their current knowledge); you assume it doesn't exist. I'm glad that works for you. I'm a "faith" guy. I've seen and experienced some things that I cannot correlate with the physical world as I know it. I choose to call these events supernatural manifestations or divine miracles. It works for me; and my life is enriched by it. If I'm wrong and you're right, so what? After I die, I'll never know it. What will it be like if I'm right? (rhetorical question - no need to respond.)

[John317]

OK, thanks for that explanation, JoeMo. :-)

[cardw]

cardw, I don't know if you remember having a similar discussion with me in another thread a few months ago. I find you extremely intelligent and logical; and you make some good points about Adventism and Christianity in general. I think you are brutally honest; but sometimes the emphasis is a little heavy on the "brutally" part.

You strike me as a "facts" guy. If you can't touch it, see it, or hear it, it doesn't exist. IOW, "faith" (hope in things that one can't perceive in the physical realm or understand with their current knowledge); you assume it doesn't exist.

Well, I have no intention of making what I say personal. I am not offended by disagreement and I don't consider disagreement persecution.

I don't assume that the only reality there is is the one I can explain. I say that I don't know and I don't have anything to say about things I don't understand. I find it dishonest to claim to know things that are unknowable.

Most of the phenomenon we observe is unexplainable and yet we function quite well on an empirical basis. To me, any form of self deception is ultimately harmful. So unless there is reasonable evidence for something I refrain from making claims about the unknown. That seems to be the best policy to me.

[John317]

If I'm wrong and you're right, so what? After I die, I'll never know it. What will it be like if I'm right? (rhetorical question - no need to respond.)

If there's a God, after you die you will most definitely know it. And all other people will eventually know it, too.

On the other hand, if God does not exist, no one will know it after they die.

That means if there's no God, every who's ever lived will be in the same boat: we will all have an endless, unconscious sleep.

But if there IS a God, many people will tragically find out too late that they've lost everything when they lose eternity.

It's only sensible to place your "bets" on the existence of God, because if you're wrong, it won't make any difference anyway; whereas if you're right, it will make a huge difference.

[John317]

...stick to a conversation that is based in facts, not personal judgments on your part.

But has your conversation been based on facts? I think if you look carefully at what you've said, you will see some personal judgments on your part and things that are not "facts."

Originally Posted By: cardw

I left Adventist and Christian belief systems because they are complete failure in their ability to determine what is true.

One only has to read a small fraction of the threads on club Adventist to realize all of the nonsensical paranoid conversation around non-issues consumes the religious believers of the world.

I understand that you can't accept even the possibility that Adventism is wrong. I understand that.

What you are doing here is trying to say that because I have an ego then you don't.

I have no desire to have a relationship with a god that doesn't exist...

Now this is just about your ego. And I have pointed out a number of times that Christianity is not based on love, but on fear and ego.

There is absolutely no evidence that the god of the Bible exists. The only thing you are offering is the threat of hell and doom. That, again, is fear. You have absolutely no evidence that this threat of hell and doom exists at all. It is simply something you and other people make up in their own minds.

There is clearly not enough evidence to support the idea that Jesus was here on some god's behalf.

I was deep into the [sDA] culture and thought it was all so important. It's all ego and fear.

It's either a competition to be the most godly or the most right. It's all such a waste of time and energy.

I care about truth and Adventism is a lie.

My critique is of Adventism in general, not the individuals. Your critique is of me personally, not my ideas. That is simply more evidence that your belief system is bankrupt and hypocritical.

On the other hand you are trying to prove that I'm a hateful person and I don't really care about people.

Personal attack is a sign of weakness in one's belief.

How about we talk about your motivations for staying an Adventist? It might help to talk about them.

Again, there must be something wrong with MY motivation. The total base of your idea of truth is on whether or not I have good enough motivations for you.

Do you realize that my question was rhetorical? I don't really want to know about your motivations for staying an Adventist.

Catch a clue. I was trying to appeal to your ability to empathize. Do you like being treated that way?

If you don't like being treated that way then stop treating me that way and stick to a conversation that is based in facts, not personal judgments on your part.

I find it dishonest to claim to know things that are unknowable.

[Tom Wetmore]

Moderator Note:

Let's stick to the topic, which is Adventism. Let's refrain from making each other the topic. Continuing down this ad hominem path only ruins a perfectly good conversation.

[John317]

...

How about we talk about your motivations for staying an Adventist? It might help to talk about them.

I have already and I will do it again.

Originally Posted By: cardw

Again, there must be something wrong with MY motivation. The total base of your idea of truth is on whether or not I have good enough motivations for you.

No, I never said there's something wrong with your motivation. I don't know your motivation. I am asking you to explain your motivation for continually talking against Adventists and Adventisim at the same time that the church and Adventists apparently attract you.

Originally Posted By: cardw

The total base of your idea of truth is on whether or not I have good enough motivations for you.

My idea of truth is based on the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy, i.e., the writings of Ellen G. White.

My idea of truth is not in the least affected by your motivations or the motivations of anyone else.

Our conversation goes to the point of why people leave the SDA church but then either come back to it or else continue to have some kind of relationship with it. That relationship can be negative or positive, of course.

[John317]

... We were studying non-SDA material is Sabbath School instead of the Quarterly.

Depending on the material, the mere fact of studying non-SDA material in Sabbath School shouldn't have been a problem. It wouldn't have been the first time that's been done. There are a lot of very good non-SDA books.

Was the SDA pastor in agreement with the use of that material?

Do you mean that you always used non-SDA material?

Can you tell what non-SDA material you were using in the Sabbath School?

[Tom Wetmore]

Moderator Note:

Let's stick to the topic, which is Adventism. Let's refrain from making each other the topic. Continuing down this ad hominem path only ruins a perfectly good conversation.

I was not kidding.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: JoeMo

If I'm wrong and you're right, so what? After I die, I'll never know it. What will it be like if I'm right? (rhetorical question - no need to respond.)

If there's a God, after you die you will most definitely know it. And all other people will eventually know it, too.

On the other hand, if God does not exist, no one will know it after they die.

That is true.

The only way you can lose out on eternal life, and end up in the lake of fire - is if there is a God and you reject him.

If there is no God then it matters not whether you accept or reject the god that does not exist - you end up the same.

in Christ,

Bob