Adventism

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I find it dishonest to claim to know things that are unknowable.

A problem with that conclusion is that it is based on this logic, "Because I have no knowledge, even after effort to learn of it, I find it to be unknowable."

God blesses!

[Neil D]

You may see it as being about a person, but you are certainly not in the majority. Look at the largest thread here on ClubAdventist. It is the debate over works versus faith. It's largely nonsense.

And the inane debates over trivia are all over the place.

[cardw]

A problem with that conclusion is that it is based on this logic, "Because I have no knowledge, even after effort to learn of it, I find it to be unknowable."

This is not logic. Just because you try to know something doesn't mean you are going to know it.

I would imagine that no matter how much you studied string theory, you would never know it.

[cardw]

Wanna know why it's largely nonsense....It's because you haven't found the Person...

[cardw]

The only way you can lose out on eternal life, and end up in the lake of fire - is if there is a God and you reject him.

If there is no God then it matters not whether you accept or reject the god that does not exist - you end up the same.

in Christ,

Bob

What if you accept the wrong god? Many beliefs are mutually exclusive. The Imam could make the same claim.

What if you get up there and god says you didn't exhibit true belief because you made this wager?

Look up Pascal's Wager.

[cardw]

I have been invited to participate in a community of people from many different backgrounds and beliefs. The common thread that holds us together is caring about people over ideas.

I was invited because I am an atheist even though I would say most of the participants are still engaged with some type of Christian world view. I am very upfront about my ideas and my clear rejection of Christianity as a way to guide my own life, but I understand the difficulty that thinking people have when they begin to have doubts. One of my roles is to help people find meaning for their life when they have hit the end of what Christianity can provide or when Christianity has beaten them up.

To give an example, one person told me that they still liked Jesus and his acceptance of people and the way he loved people and couldn't imagine how to find meaning without a belief in Jesus. But they couldn't take the other ideas about Jesus such as god requiring him to be sacrificed and the idea that people were born sinful. There were a number of other Christian beliefs they couldn't bring themselves to believe.

I told this person that until they had an understanding of how to bring meaning to their lives without Jesus they needed to stay with their vision of Jesus. They may never get to a place where they don't need a Jesus narrative, but the Jesus they have created in their own mind is one they can emotionally and intellectually defend. This person can do this because they don't really take the Bible literally, but have connected with a particular vision of Jesus that creates meaning for them.

I know many of you will consider this a horrible thing and a true sign of the end times, but you are missing out on what it is like to be in a supportive and loving community. I think you will find that most people in this community are really creative and good people. If you take Jesus' idea that it is by their fruits you will know them, then this group of people definitely has the fruit. You find generosity, caring, good listening, reaching out, honesty, understanding, and freedom.

I am as honest there and I am here. The difference is when people disagree with me, they don't attack me. They express why they are uncomfortable with my ideas for themselves. And I'm fine with that, because each person has to work this stuff out for themselves.

I would point out that if you have an emotional reaction to something I might say, then you might want to pay attention to what you are connected to. If an idea can create such animosity in you, then you are giving that idea way too much power.

I have an interest in Adventism because that is where I came from. It will always have an interest for me, because it formed much of who I am in positive and negative ways. I will not be coming back to Adventism. I am positive from my research and study that it is based on false premises. I have thoroughly studied this. I didn't leave Adventism to taste the pleasures of the world, though that bar is pretty low when those sinful pleasures include playing cards, listening to Jazz and Rock music, watching movies, dancing, etc.

I left for the simple fact that Adventism is based on myths, ego, and immaturity. I spend time here in case someone happens to be going through a similar experience as I did. I am simply giving back in payment for those who helped me navigate through some rather painful transitions.

If it doesn't apply to you and you don't identify with my experience, then let it go. If you find meaning by fighting the big bad atheist, then I'm fine with that as well.

This is my perspective. I'm giving this because you asked. It is not a statement about anyone personally. So please see if you can not take my ideas personally.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

What if you accept the wrong god? Many beliefs are mutually exclusive. The Imam could make the same claim.

The One great difference is that the tomb of Him Whom we who wish to, serve, is empty and if the Imam isn't alive now,his tomb isn't empty either, something no other so-called god can claim or ever will be able to claim.

God blesses!

[cardw]

Quote:

What if you accept the wrong god? Many beliefs are mutually exclusive. The Imam could make the same claim.

The One great difference is that the tomb of Him Whom we who wish to, serve, is empty and if the Imam isn't alive now,his tomb isn't empty either, something no other so-called god can claim or ever will be able to claim.

God blesses!

Hardly evidence of anything. Plus an Imam is not a god. His claim would be you need to worship Allah.

All these gods claim to have risen from the dead.

Australian Aboriginal mythology

Julunggul

Wawalag

Akkadian mythology

Tammuz

Ishtar

Arabian mythology

Phoenix

Aztec mythology

Quetzalcoatl

Xipe Totec

Canaanite mythology

Adonis

Baal

Eshmun

Melqart

Dacian mythology

Zalmoxis

Egyptian mythology

Osiris

Amun

Horus

Amun-Min (Amen-Min)

Etruscan mythology

Atunis (also known as "Adonis" in Greek)

Finnic mythology

Lemminkäinen

Greek mythology

Adonis

Cronus

Dionysus

Orpheus

Persephone

Hindu mythology

Chinnamasta

Iravan

Barbarika

Japanese mythology

Izanagi

Jewish mythology

Lailah

Khoikhoi mythology

Heitsi-eibib

Korean mythology

Bari (or Baridegi)

Native American mythology

Kaknu

Norse mythology

Gullveig

Odin

Baldr

Phrygian mythology

Attis

Religion in ancient Rome

Aeneas

Bacchus

Proserpina

Slavic mythology

Jarilo

Kostroma

Marzanna

Sumerian mythology

Dumuzi

Inanna

Yoruba mythology

Obatala

Moremi Ajasoro

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

But they couldn't take the other ideas about Jesus such as god requiring him to be sacrificed and the idea that people were born sinful.

I don't blame them for not accepting that idea. Especially since the underlined is not true. The same is true of the rest insofar as a requirement. Any and all have the freedom to reject God's plan of salvation.

As far as evidence of a master Creator, every person carries around in their bodies the evidence of His reality, 32 billion, more or less, small intricate live cells more intricate than the most intricate man has been able to contrive, each working overtime to keep one from dropping dead.

As evidence of His sustaining care, every cell is left with Jesus' imprimatur.

"For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve others and to give his life as a ransom for many."Matthew 20:28 NLT

"“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."John 10:11 NKJV

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

All these gods claim to have risen from the dead.

Do they also claim to have disciples who claim to have seen them after they rose from the dead? Even if they did it wouldn't be a surprise to the disciples of Christ since Jesus warned them this would happen, especially as we see the nearness of His second coming.

I'm sure you must be aware that there are some 1200 people around the world that profess to be Christ. How many of the people you have listed became so illustrious as to find importance of interest that would cause 1200 people to attempt as imitaters?

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."2 Cor 11:13-15 KJV

God blesses!

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

The only way you can lose out on eternal life, and end up in the lake of fire - is if there is a God and you reject him.

If there is no God then it matters not whether you accept or reject the god that does not exist - you end up the same.

in Christ,

Bob

What if you accept the wrong god? Many beliefs are mutually exclusive. The Imam could make the same claim.

What if you get up there and god says you didn't exhibit true belief because you made this wager?

Look up Pascal's Wager.

In every one of the failing examples you list - you do not fail worse than being an atheist and being wrong.

Thus choosing Christ - is a no lose proposition when compared to atheism even when we include your list of possible outcomes.

However - even so the Bible does have solution even for those who choose according to the best light that God has made available to them - and yet are still wrong - "to him that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin" James 4:17.

The Bible says that gentiles - who are pagans who have no bible at all but "do instinctively the things of the Law - showing the (New Covenant) works of the law written on the heart" are accounted as spiritual Jews - as the saved in Romans 2 - because they follow all the light God has given them.

Recall that in John 16:8 it is the Holy Spirit that "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" -- He does not just "convict the Christian of sin and righteousness and judgment".

But in Romans 1 he says that the pagans in rebellion against the law of God are "without excuse" for the "invisible attributes of God are clearly seen in the things that have been made".

in Christ,

Bob

[Bravus]

Perhaps we need a new Pascal's Wager thread?

Unfortunately it can't be in Town Hall, but I'll make it elsewhere and link it below.

[Bravus]

This old thread on the Origins forum started out being about something quite different, but drifted (as threads do) to the topic of Pascal's Wager.

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post497657

I've linked to the start of the Pascal's Wager discussion.

[Bravus]

Here's the new thread in Theological Townhall: http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/587625/Pascal_s_Wager.html#Post587625

[John317]

I have been invited to participate in a community of people from many different backgrounds and beliefs.

I personally am very glad you're a part of these exchanges.

[Neil D]

I have been invited to participate in a community of people from many different backgrounds and beliefs. The common thread that holds us together is caring about people over ideas.

I was invited because I am an atheist even though I would say most of the participants are still engaged with some type of Christian world view. I am very upfront about my ideas and my clear rejection of Christianity as a way to guide my own life, but I understand the difficulty that thinking people have when they begin to have doubts. One of my roles is to help people find meaning for their life when they have hit the end of what Christianity can provide or when Christianity has beaten them up.

And here is where you show us who you are...a caring person who is reaching out...but who denys the Person of Christ, because your thoughts of Him are the wrong ones....That is why you fight the culture, as every other SDA. and where you deny the supernatural ability to sense what is right and wrong in the character of the Person....

And btw, I apologize for my remarks about being done,and late ect....I actually was up late and had fallen asleep making a reply to you...I really did need to call it a night...sorry to come off as a terse person....

[cardw]

I'm going to let this conversation go. If you want read on the critiques of Pascal's Wager there are plenty of references.

I was simply sharing my reasons for leaving Adventism and I don't find it particularly fruitful to debate this further.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

I know many of you will consider this a horrible thing and a true sign of the end times, but you are missing out on what it is like to be in a supportive and loving community. I think you will find that most people in this community are really creative and good people. If you take Jesus' idea that it is by their fruits you will know them, then this group of people definitely has the fruit. You find generosity, caring, good listening, reaching out, honesty, understanding, and freedom.

cardw,

1. I don't think you're a horrible person. I'm glad to have you here as a reality check. I'm also thankful for many other people who think differently than I do - like Empty Cross, John 317 - even Gibs and Sky. What a boring place this would be without debating different views! You have a logic and an honesty about you that I respect. As I said before, I think you sometimes come off as being a little harsh (no offense!).

2. I can't speak for others, but I am NOT missing out on a loving and supportive community. I know the kind of churches you speak of, and that Empty Cross experienced; but that is NOT my experience at my current church (and the churches I sing and teach at)! I couldn't ask for a more loving supportive community. We have chosen to be "true-faced". We have LGBT's, alcoholics, dopers, non-believers, charismatics and card-carrying SDA's at our church - mostly cuz we need the community and mutual support. We understand that Jesus came to heal the sick - not to solely protect the righteous.

I don't blame you for not wanting to come back to traditional Adventism - I don't either. But my experience is (and I have been everything from a total agnostic to a New-Ager to a raving SDA legalist) that I LOVE where I am now. You need to be true to yourself. If you professed a love for Jesus that wasn't there, you would be a hypocrite. I profess a love for Jesus because Jesus is reality for me. I profess to be an SDA not because of the doctrine, but because it is the culture I am most comfortable with and happiest with (at least with my current congregation). I'm done trying to "find myself" - I'm too old to start over again. I'm perfectly happy and fulfilled with the Adventism I'm involved with. If you are fulfilled where you are, God (or logic) bless you!

[cardw]

cardw,

1. I don't think you're a horrible person. I'm glad to have you here as a reality check. I'm also thankful for many other people who think differently than I do - like Empty Cross, John 317 - even Gibs and Sky. What a boring place this would be without debating different views! You have a logic and an honesty about you that I respect. As I said before, I think you sometimes come off as being a little harsh (no offense!).

[cardw]

And here is where you show us who you are...a caring person who is reaching out...but who denys the Person of Christ, because your thoughts of Him are the wrong ones....That is why you fight the culture, as every other SDA. and where you deny the supernatural ability to sense what is right and wrong in the character of the Person....

[Tom Wetmore]

...

What I find can be illustrated by pointing to the moon. What usually happens with organized religion is that everybody starts arguing about the finger pointing to the moon. Sometimes I feel like saying, "Just look at the fricken moon."

arguing about the finger pointing to the moon... Yep. That's about right!

Reminds me of the Rugrats cartoon -

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

And the fear core in Christianity is believe or die.

And the fear core of health principles is drink water and eat food or die, ad-infinitum. If I don't believe in God being love, all I lose is eternal life with no pain, no tears and no death.

If I believe in God and I'm right, I get none of those negatives. If I'm an atheist and remain one I get all those things and die also.

And BTW, if death means living in an eternally burning fire to anyone on this conversation, it's unbiblical and means living in eternal torment. Die means cessation of life, exactly what God said, not living eternally in fire.

How anyone could attach such a horrible scenario to a God Who is love, reveals the diabolical deception of the evil one.

God blesses!

[BobRyan]

Quote:

And the fear core in Christianity is believe or die.

And the fear core of health principles is drink water and eat food or die, ad-infinitum.

Indeed - only a "pointless religion" has "no consequence if you don't believe it so believe it just because you want to".

Anything truly arbitrary and pointless leaves you perfectly free to choose or not choose it.

And that is the "best case scenario" for the atheist.

in Christ,

Bob

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I can appreciate the view that sees this as a Person. I find that naturalistic explanations are more believable to me.

How do you treat a person here on this world? You talk to him, walk with him, take him out to dinner, do things with him.

....Well, that's how you treat God...there is a two way conversation, you talk and He listens AND He talks and you listen...You share what you learn. You do things together...

And then there's bible time where you get your instruction for the day.:-)

Originally Posted By: cardw

What you may call virtues, I call tools. For example humbleness is something I use to free me from my ego. It is in my best interest to be humble because I have learned that my ego tends to motivate me to lie about things to the detriment of myself.

As an aid to symantics...to me, Ego is equated with Self. And my moral excellence comes from incorporating the 10 Commandments as rules for me to live by...Anyone else, they live by thier rules, but for me, I live by the 10 commandment...Don't worry about anyone else...cant force them to change...and the virues that I am looking for come out in a timely mannor.

Originally Posted By: cardw

When I study the age of the universe and compare it to the blip of time I'm here on this planet I have laugh at my false sense of importance. And it is my ego that gets disappointed that I'm not given more attention. That is not only irrational, but it makes life miserable. When I can truly appreciate how immature it is to want that attention and laugh, I become free.

Yeah, that's the same emotion I got when looking up at the stars and hearing the words" taste and see that the Lord is good."...and I ge6t a bit humbled when I viewed the spacial relationship of the earth to the heavens....

Originally Posted By: cardw

If I treat humbleness as a virtue then my ego shows up again. Humbleness is an act of self interest. I can say the same thing for forgiveness. Forgiveness is an act of self interest. If you treat these as personal virtues, you'll miss out on the gift.

Not sure what you mean here...Humbleness is a virtue which is an act of self interest? I'm sorry, but when I look at the stars and realize that God is telling me that I am forgiven for failing,...that I am His beloved child, that He has emptied the treasures of heaven to redeem me, what can I do but to forgive myself, that I am something of worth in His eyes?... the King of the universe has given pardon...who am I to dispute that?...Everyone needs forgiveness and all of us have felt guilt in some form or another...Christianity provides a way to recieve forgiveness for that guilt,...for that broken relationship. The Adventist message acutely tells how to repair that broken relationship..

Originally Posted By: cardw

Christianity uses this need to be recognized and offers the love of Jesus as the cure. God loves you individually is an appeal to ego and immaturity. When you add the Adventist teaching that Adventists are a special people called by god to spread a super insider message you have an additional appeal to the ego. It feels like a shallow illusion designed to make me feel good and I notice how people cling to this myth and get upset when you point out the illusion.

Hmmmm...sorry, but the priorities ,that are listed, are a bit skewed...Christianity gives hope first, then faith, and THEN love...and perfect love that God gives will cast out fear. When you realize that your Father has not left you and cares for you, and is reaching out to you now, then the question is how will you respond...That perfect love comes when you realize that the King of the universe has communicated to you that you truely are loved...As for the Adventist and that "super insider message"...toss that. That is some message designed to make you feel inferior...Look again at the writings and discard any "super insider message" and realize that God is reaching out to you, trying to communicate how to love...that love between two people, friends who bond as near as brothers, who foster a clean, guilt free relationship. There is where freedom is...

Originally Posted By: cardw

It might be a stop gap and as far a many people go. So it's not a wrong/right/good/bad thing to me. It's just not where I want to live my life. [/quote']

I understand. I just want you to know that you are using the same Adventist thinking that you are fighting against...I see it...the other's on this forum have seen it as well...You haven't shed your shacks, you just changed them for a more padded version of them...that's all...Just communicate with God..."Taste and see that the Lord is good"....It's found in psalms...

[phkrause]

Excellent reply Neil, that's what I've observed also.