Adventism

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: cardw

There is absolutely no evidence for intelligent design. A

Then you do not understand (or are simply ignoring) the subject of design and "intelligence" from a scientific point of view.

Information does not come from the void.

DNA is an example of massively complex "stored information" and the cell is designed with systems capable not only of reading, repairing, translating, replicating the information but of "executing the instructions" that are stored in it as a response to the needs of the environment within and around it.

Gather some rocks and gas -- and try to work toward that "result" without any intelligence or design.

[BobRyan]

Quote:

Before I answer this let me ask you a few questions.

Do you understand the idea of fractal mathematics?

As it turns out - fractals and I go way back.

What is your point?

That rocks and gas invented mathematics?

That creating a mathematical system to model real life can be done by rocks and gas?

It is one thing to have a rock fall due to gravity. It is quite another to create an eye and a brain capable of "understanding" that event by viewing it. Glossing over the difference is the work of atheist evolutionists. Noticing the difference is the work of Creationists following the data where it leads.

In any case - the fact that it takes a lot of science to model nature is not an indication that rocks falling "create information" such that you can eventually get from rocks and gas -- to the information encoding and decoding systems associated with DNA.

As I stated - "information does not come out of the void".

in Christ,

Bob

[cardw]

Quote:

Before I answer this let me ask you a few questions.

Do you understand the idea of fractal mathematics?

As it turns out - fractals and I go way back.

What is your point?

That rocks and gas invented mathematics?

You are having a conversation with yourself. You go and state my case for me based on your own imagination. And then refute that.

Where did I state that rocks and gas invented mathematics?

No where. I'm tired of this. So bye...

[CoAspen]

I think you have 'proven' your point! It is difficult to have a conversation with some christian believers. It is quite distressing to see people posting 'trashy' non answers to your postings. But not to worry, it happens to many of the rest of us also. It is even more bothersome the attitude used to dis you, not becoming to those who claim to be followers of Christ. It behooves those of us, claiming christianity, to reply in a calm and respectful way. Taint happening!!!

Get a grip folks!

[Aliensanctuary]

Religions tend to create a mindset where their practitioners tend to feel that they, alone, magically possess the TRUTH. I believe, as mentioned previously, that all religions are destined for the garbage dump of human history because most are created by self-centered humans with delusions of power, grandeur, or wealth. That goes for the Founding Fathers and Mother of Adventism, also.

One might be tempted to think that the jump from non-life to single-cell life is such a stupendous, if not impossible, leap, that we should at least be open to consider other possibilities as to how life got here. Sure, we don't have any scientific proof for the existence of the Protestant God or the Jewish YHVH, but neither do we have scientific proof of life creating itself, or of dog-like creatures evolving into dolphin-like creatures, then into crocodile-like creatures which is what scientific literature suggests as the interpretation of fossil discoveries.

We could contend that this world was modified, then colonized by some highly advanced civilization from the stars using technology we can only now appreciate. Perhaps the life we see today was not the first attempt at colonization, perhaps not.

So, the colonizers synthesized a couple of employees to tend a newly-planted garden. Perhaps this planet was to be a way-station to re-supply food and fuel for intergalactic travelers. Unfortunately, according to the literature, the employees broke their contract with their employer, were fired, then evicted from their garden home.

Left to themselves, their disconnect from the source of life and knowledge spiraled their descendants downward into the hateful, murderous, and diseased world we now live in. We can't really blame those who synthesized life here then for some reason abandoned the failed mission.

The literature recounting early human history also suggests that all humans will someday face those who colonized this world and be judged and sentenced for acts that harmed their fellow humans. This would involve a telepathic technology beyond our understanding in order to record and process human memories, and a technology that could re-create long-dead life forms from stored DNA codes. The same body of literature also states that there will be a great destruction of civilization at the end of time, then a great restoration and a return to utopia.

We can don our 1844 sunglasses or our extremely dark scientific sunglasses and may end up failing to see how things really are. Arguments between sunglasses wearers are doomed to fail, because their vision is degraded and skewed and they cannot see, much less talk about, the same things. We can pick each others carcasses until there is nothing left to pick, yet still be unenlightened as to what is ultimate truth.

I suspect we will have to wait until everything is explained to us. Yet, there will still be two opposing stories. May we pick the right story to believe and be chosen as workers in utopia, the New Earth.

[BobRyan]

Quote:

Before I answer this let me ask you a few questions.

Do you understand the idea of fractal mathematics?

As it turns out - fractals and I go way back.

What is your point?

That rocks and gas invented mathematics?

That creating a mathematical system to model real life can be done by rocks and gas?

It is one thing to have a rock fall due to gravity. It is quite another to create an eye and a brain capable of "understanding" that event by viewing it. Glossing over the difference is the work of atheist evolutionists. Noticing the difference is the work of Creationists following the data where it leads.

In any case - the fact that it takes a lot of science to model nature is not an indication that rocks falling "create information" such that you can eventually get from rocks and gas -- to the information encoding and decoding systems associated with DNA.

As I stated - "information does not come out of the void".

--===================================================

It is entirely possible that the hard questions - expose a weakness in the argument for atheism that is difficult to solve.

Maybe we should not expect an actual answer to the difficult problems.

in Christ,

Bob

[cardw]

As I stated - "information does not come out of the void".

[JoeMo]

Bob and cardw,

You both understand that neither of you will convince the other to come to your side, don't you? I decided a while back that continued participation in this discussion is futile. Cardw asks questions that I cannot factually answer, so why try? Bob asks questions that make no sense to cardw, so why continue? I'll stick with my faith (be it rational or not) cuz I like it. I respect cardw's right to stick with his facts and rationalism.

[cardw]

Bob and cardw,

You both understand that neither of you will convince the other to come to your side, don't you? I decided a while back that continued participation in this discussion is futile. Cardw asks questions that I cannot factually answer, so why try? Bob asks questions that make no sense to cardw, so why continue? I'll stick with my faith (be it rational or not) cuz I like it. I respect cardw's right to stick with his facts and rationalism.

I understand this. My goal is to clarify what the atheist position is. I'm not concerned that people disagree with me, but I think it is important to accurately represent what is being disagreed with.

So many Christian presentations of what atheists claim completely misrepresent their position either from a willful distortion or from a lack of comprehension. Many Christians rely on these misrepresentations for their views on atheism and agnosticism because they are never confronted by actual atheists.

Now I understand why you disagree because you have an inner narrative that you connect with. I have no way to prove or disprove your narrative. I don't have that inner connection. I also don't rely on that type of connection for my understanding of truth. And this is based on the success that is clearly demonstrated by an intellectually honest method of truth.

I do have a capacity to evaluate the likelihood of any narrative based on internal inconsistencies. What is not available for this type of analysis is why we love or why we find certain things beautiful. I fully enjoy the subjective aspect of what it means to conscious. As long as something doesn't demonstrate harm I think it is fully available to the inner life.

And as far as the external life I like the Wiccan idea to do what you will, but do no harm. That seems far more rational and useful than trying to decode an iron age book with a set of rules where some are in effect and others aren't, based on 40,000 different criterion.

[BobRyan]

Bob and cardw,

You both understand that neither of you will convince the other to come to your side, don't you?

That is the nature of debate. We all knew that right??

The purpose is to compare notes as succinctly as possible so that those who are in fact the unbiased objective readers - can make an informed choice.

Obviously there is on way for either side of the debate to twist the other person's arm and force them to choose something against their will. Simply does not happen in real life.

There are dozens of differences of opinion on this board every day - both on religious and non-religious topics, that illustrate the point.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Cardw asks questions that I cannot factually answer, so why try?

I can see your point - why should you get into a Q&A when you don't have any answers.

Certainly it is wise of you not to step into an area where you simply don't have information.

I don't think anyone is objecting to your doing that.

Life is good.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Quote:

Before I answer this let me ask you a few questions.

Do you understand the idea of fractal mathematics?

As it turns out - fractals and I go way back.

What is your point?

That rocks and gas invented mathematics?

That creating a mathematical system to model real life can be done by rocks and gas?

It is one thing to have a rock fall due to gravity. It is quite another to create an eye and a brain capable of "understanding" that event by viewing it. Glossing over the difference is the work of atheist evolutionists. Noticing the difference is the work of Creationists following the data where it leads.

In any case - the fact that it takes a lot of science to model nature is not an indication that rocks falling "create information" such that you can eventually get from rocks and gas -- to the information encoding and decoding systems associated with DNA.

As I stated - "information does not come out of the void".

--===================================================

It is entirely possible that the hard questions - expose a weakness in the argument for atheism that is difficult to solve.

Maybe we should not expect an actual answer to the difficult problems.

[Neil D]

I think you forget that I'm not trying to earn salvation because I don't believe there is a god to please in the first place.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Well if we follow your rule, [information does not come out of a void] then who created god?

Your question relies on a circular argument. To presuppose a time when God did not exist - is to presuppose atheism.

No kidding.

[cardw]

There you go again- making 'sure you get into heaven'....some sort of working your way into heaven...that's not what this is about, Cardw...It's about making friends with God...that's why you don't get it...

I'm not really interested in a buddy god either. You're right. I don't understand why it so important that I make god my friend. Apparently if I don't become god's friend then I'm going to the lake of fire.

Let me ask you this. If I don't find a way to be god's friend am I going to be lost?

Maybe how you answer this will clarify what you mean.

[Neil D]

When you debate what you state atheists think instead of what we actually think, you are reduced to having a conversation with yourself.

Well, when I want an expert to confirm what I said, where do you think I need to go?????

[and this type of thinking doesn't necessarily limit itself to the "deluded" religious fanatics here, either !]

[Neil D]

I'm not really interested in a buddy god either. You're right. I don't understand why it so important that I make god my friend. Apparently if I don't become god's friend then I'm going to the lake of fire.

[Kevin H]

I don't know about others, but until the 9th grade, I grew up basically shut in from the church as we lived about 40 miles away from 3 churches in different directions but did not have a car. Grandma would just have worship at home and share Jesus with us, and if relatives visited or we visited them we would go to church. I went to church school for a semester in the 3rd grade.

While little, whether it was conservative or liberal, I noticed two attitudes towards Seventh-day Adventism. Although both were very strict, one had the strictness but with love and fun with a God who was very patient and willing to do anything to be with us. The other was very strict and exacting and full of fear. The husband of one of my aunts, and the wife of one of my uncles were very much in this second group. My grandma and most of my aunts and uncles who were in the church (and not all of them were) belonged to the first group. For a few years I have to admit I joined the second group believing that they were right because of a Bible verse that proved to me that Jesus was on the side of the second group. The text was "SUFFER the little children to come unto me." and sadly I represented this group to my brother and sisters and to my classmates. After going to Accademy in the 10th grade and then even more with attending AUC in the late 1970s-early 80s I returned to the views of my Grandma and other relatives.

The one aunt who's husband I mentioned did not have any children, but the uncle and his wife, had 2 daughters, One is a fairly strict Adventist the other is a very dedicated evangelical non-Adventist. I know with me I've often wondered where I would be today if the "SUFFER the little children" adventists was the only view that I had to compare Adventism to.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Let me ask you this. If I don't find a way to be god's friend am I going to be lost?

Maybe how you answer this will clarify what you mean.

The greatest desire of every man/woman is to love and be loved...to know and be known....That is the experience of love...If you haven't experienced it, then you are truly flawed and a lonely man.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

The greatest desire of every man/woman is to love and be loved...to know and be known....That is the experience of love...If you haven't experienced it, then you are truly flawed and a lonely man.

I feel loved. I have a great community of friends. I enjoy both giving and receiving love.

[Neil D]

Quote:

The greatest desire of every man/woman is to love and be loved...to know and be known....That is the experience of love...If you haven't experienced it, then you are truly flawed and a lonely man.

[from cardw]

Quote:

I feel loved. I have a great community of friends. I enjoy both giving and receiving love.

So, you are telling me that EVERY person that you've talked to thinks that you are the most loving person that there is...All your relatives love you and think that you are wonderful....

Quote:

And what makes you think that YOU finding God depends upon YOU? You don't remember your parables very well....do you? What does the lost coin, and the lost lamb have in common?

[debbym]

I don't think there is a one size fits all mold, for members, and those who leave, those who come back, and those who come in, and those who are outside.... we have far too many variations in experience, thinking, and developmental stages.

There is someone who is able to see all these factors perfectly, who condemns no one, who is working to uplift and encourage everyone, who never approves of wrong doing, and always cares about struggle in every heart everywhere.

There is nothing anyone can do to cause God to love them less, but there are thoughts and attitudes and actions we can take that will result in us being able to love God less.

Everyone is under God's care, in the church or outside of the church. In the church or outside of the church some care and some do not.

Someone prayed, and cared and expressed God's love to me, and consequently i am in the church. However slight and insignificant my caring will seem, I will care. When life was harsh and none one held any answers, i lived on the mercy of God who cared for me, till i could care.

debjm

debjm

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I feel loved. I have a great community of friends. I enjoy both giving and receiving love.

So, you are telling me that EVERY person that you've talked to thinks that you are the most loving person that there is...

[Woody]

Just a reminder guys. You should not be discussing "religious' issues here on Townhall. It shows disrespect to Stan.

[BobRyan]

In the OP - the question is asked "why" some people run to the Adventist faith - choosing to be Adventist.

Is puzzling

I see so many who grew up run from it.

I see so many others who did not grow up in it, run to it.

Why and Why?

And so as can be expected - a number of the SDA doctrines come up in response on a number of posts.

CARDW has extended this to the more generic - "why be Christian at all".

Woody seems to think that either this discussion should be had part from the religious teachings of Christianity, or Adventist Christianity -- or that it is not in the right section of the board.

Not sure what I can do about either of those issues.

in Christ,

Bob