Adventism

[BobRyan]

It is weary because you don't understand most atheist's positions. We are generally agnostic on the question of god in general. We are atheist on the god of the Bible. The problem is that as soon as someone is atheist on the god of the Bible you consider that a denial of gods all together.

So then our Buddhist and Hindu friends are what you would call "Atheists" or "agnostics that are atheist on the God of the Bible"?

Fascinating!

In any case that is certainly not the "atheism" of Huxley, Darwin, Dawkins, Provine, Meyers et al.

in Christ,

Bob

[JoeMo]

Quote:

So then our Buddhist and Hindu friends are what you would call "Atheists" or "agnostics that are atheist on the God of the Bible"?

Maybe I'm missing something here, Bob; but I never got that out of any of cardw's posts. He can correct me if I'm wrong; but I perceive that he is coming from the perspective that the evidence suggests that there are no spiritual God or gods, period - no matter what religion you promote. Athiests are convinced of this and agnostics just don't aren't sure.

[debbym]

Rich,

The steps i have taken in my understanding to believe is not an automatic assumption based on assuming God is love because i cannot prove love exists. It is stated in scripture that by searching a man cannot know or find God. From my experience and study, trust and belief and knowing is something based on a personal revelation of God to me. If you have not received this revelation then of course you have no basis for faith, belief, knowing that God is, "and that he is a rewarder of those that diligently seek him."

There are believers who have nothing to base their faith on except what may be described as Sunday school mythologies. But there are those who have another experience. An experience in growing in understanding, when faith rests and grows in the adult mind. "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing cometh by the Word of God". Jesus prophesied and then said, "I tell you these things now so when they come about you will believe."

There is nothing more miraculous then someone coming to believe. Because it happens as a result of them experiencing God working, from outside of themselves.

I do understand much of the atheist/agnostic view, having close family members in hours and hours of conversation with me regarding this matter. Very precious conversations. but wearying when the same arguments go on and on. I speak to do some justice to this area of thought. you apparently are willing to spend some time here on this topic, so i am ok doing that to.

Scientists are more and more often discussing what to do with evidence of intelligent design. One thing is true of science, it is continually changing in position and understanding.

When we as adults find the faith we had as a child breaks into pieces under the demands of a new season of life a new developmental stage called adulthood emerges. As an adult I deeply questioned God, and everything i ever received as a kid growing up in the SDA Church experience. God, in a very still and quiet voice made himself known to me in the scripture with love and meaning. God does not need me as a believer to cause you as an adult to know Him. He is able to make himself known to you, and will do so.

When Jesus was here he very clearly made known his Character to all, those who would accept and those who would not, he gives freely to everyone.

Thank-you so much for taking time to respond.

Maybe someone can help me sometime with learning to do the quotes as neatly as you have done, Thank-you again.

debjm

[Gail]

[phkrause]

[cardw]

Rich,

The steps i have taken in my understanding to believe is not an automatic assumption based on assuming God is love because i cannot prove love exists. It is stated in scripture that by searching a man cannot know or find God. From my experience and study, trust and belief and knowing is something based on a personal revelation of God to me. If you have not received this revelation then of course you have no basis for faith, belief, knowing that God is, "and that he is a rewarder of those that diligently seek him."

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

It is weary because you don't understand most atheist's positions. We are generally agnostic on the question of god in general. We are atheist on the god of the Bible. The problem is that as soon as someone is atheist on the god of the Bible you consider that a denial of gods all together.

So then our Buddhist and Hindu friends are what you would call "Atheists" or "agnostics that are atheist on the God of the Bible"?

Again you reveal your ignorance. Buddhists are atheists.

Hindus are agnostic monotheistic in a sense where there is a one unknowable god that is nameless with many manifestations in the many god forms within their tradition. Each of these god forms would be a type of Christ in a very general sense. I hesitate to even mention this because you are going to distort this into some imaginary argument that you will claim I am making.

[JoeMo]

debjm,

X 3

To do the quotes, when you reply to someone, click on the "reply" button at the bottom of their post rather than in the "quick reply" space at the bottom of each page. Copy and paste what you want to quote from their post into your post. Highlight the quote and click on the quotation marks at the top of your post. It will show up as text saying quote/unquote in brackets while you are typing; but will show up in a neat little box when you submit your quote.

It's the same with the various emoticons. click on the single smiley face at the top of the post you are writing, then click on the emoticon you desire. It will show up as text while you are typing your post; but show up as an emoticon when you submit. for example, what shows as a semi-colon followed by a closed parentheses while you are writing shows up as a when you submit your post.

If this helps, I just saved you 6 months of trial and error. I'm in my 60's; and that's how long it took me to figure it out. Thanks to Gail for her teaching me!

[debbym]

Quote:

It's the same with the various emoticons. click on the single smiley face at the top of the post you are writing, then click on the emoticon you desire. It will show up as text while you are typing your post; but show up as an emoticon when you submit. for example, what shows as a semi-colon followed by a closed parentheses while you are writing shows up as a bwink when you submit your post.

thanks so kindly JoeMo,

it works,

debjm

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

You are the ones who claim to know. The reason no one can argue with you is that you don't follow the laws of reason.

The underlined is the reason Christ was crucified and is historical fact. And we are not ashamed. Anyone who believes we came from apes might ask themselves the question, "Why did man evolve a brain that has some 80% capacity that is well beyond what is used by most human beings. Does evolution evolve anticipating we might one day live in a world far beyond the limited intelligence we now exercise?

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I understand. We all need to throw tantrums from time to time. I know I've thrown a few myself.

Some live in a continuous one.

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Debjm,

alot

Excellent post; good thoughts. Thanks!

Ditto!

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

the Bible is very clear about the existence of a literal realm for the dead

Would you please be so kind as to identify that particular place it is presented so clearly as literal? Thank you.

God blesses!

[cardw]

Quote:

You are the ones who claim to know. The reason no one can argue with you is that you don't follow the laws of reason.

The underlined is the reason Christ was crucified and is historical fact. And we are not ashamed. Anyone who believes we came from apes might ask themselves the question, "Why did man evolve a brain that has some 80% capacity that is well beyond what is used by most human beings. Does evolution evolve anticipating we might one day live in a world far beyond the limited intelligence we now exercise?

Well when you can actually get something factually right we can have a conversation.

1. We did not evolve from apes. We have a common ancestor.

2. We use all our brain. It's a myth that we only use 10 percent of our brain.

Here is an article from Scientific American that talks about this myth.

Do we only use 10 percent of our brain?

Time and time again you are factually wrong and yet you continue to claim to know.

[cardw]

Quote:

I understand. We all need to throw tantrums from time to time. I know I've thrown a few myself.

Some live in a continuous one.

Are you saying I live in a continuous tantrum?

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: debjm

To argue against a personal creator God is like arguing against the existence of love.

Two rocks might wish to argue against the existence of love - if they could wish, and argue.

But once you have complex cultures among humans it is not reasonable to argue against the existence of Love.

in Christ,

Bob

That's one reason why we take God's Word for Who He is.

"The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love."1 John 4:8 NASB

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

because i cannot prove love exists

God does not ask me to prove Him to anyone else. He only asks me to give the gospel. His Holy Spirit will then convict those who desire to know Him.

"Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.”

Jesus replied, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don’t know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words I speak are not my own, but my Father who lives in me does his work through me."John 14:8-10 NLT

God blesses!

[BobRyan]

1. We did not evolve from apes. We have a common ancestor.

[BobRyan]

But in all fairness to the article about the brain (on Adventist subject as if Einstein was an Adventist??) - it does say this...

Quote:

Losing far less than 90 percent of the brain to accident or disease has catastrophic consequences. What is more, observing the effects of head injury reveals that there does not seem to be any area of the brain that can be destroyed by strokes, head trauma, or other manner, without leaving the patient with some kind of functional deficit. Likewise, electrical stimulation of points in the brain during neurosurgery has failed so far to uncover any dormant areas where no percept, emotion or movement is elicited by applying these tiny currents

Here the article admits that the part of the brain measured has to do with mechanical ability.

But it is more than a little "obvious" that they have not actually mapped out the capacity of the brain when it comes to IQ and memory. Notice that you never hear the neurologist say "oops! Looks like you only have enough memory capacity left for two more years of life! You are in big trouble my friend -- two years from now we will need to hood you up to an external hard drive or do a memory upgrade". And given that he knows that the memory you have stored is not 100% of the memory unused space available -- it is wonderfully surprising that he would then argue that you are at 100% use - nothing to spare. In fact he does not even know if you are at 10% use when it comes to the space for storing memory.

So they cannot measure total capacity for memory AND YET want to claim that you are not left with 90% to spare - but rather that you are near 100%!!! How "odd".

The other thing that tells you that their conclusion is bogus - is that Einstein is not saying "hey your brain's mechanical controls are only 10% used - it could easily manage 9 more sets of eyes, nine more sets of lungs, nine more ..." it was not a discussion of the brain's "mechanical management ability" that was the subject of his 10% comment.

So in the article they take the simplest areas where they can measure mechanical control and then "imagine" that this is all the brain's capacity. Like everything else with atheist evolutionists - the less they know the more certain they are about their 100% claims! How "surprising".

Secondly - even the Neurologist knows that by stimulating certain parts of the brain you can have far more complete recall than you are able to do on your own. This proves that your own ability to access the information already stored - is "lacking" what they absolutely know for certain - can be had.

For example contrast those with varying degrees of Eidetic memory -- what is sometimes called a photographic memory - having unusually complete recall of some events. Even this is not the total recall that can be had for random events, sights, sounds via brain stimulation. your brain is like a computer that stores everything but cannot recall what it has stored at the 100% level - the data is there - but it cannot be access to the level of 100% or even 50% accuracy. But if you read/see the same event multiple times - at some point you get there.

And that is memory not cognitive ability - not IQ.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: cardw

It is weary because you don't understand most atheist's positions. We are generally agnostic on the question of god in general. We are atheist on the god of the Bible. The problem is that as soon as someone is atheist on the god of the Bible you consider that a denial of gods all together.

So then our Buddhist and Hindu friends are what you would call "Atheists" or "agnostics that are atheist on the God of the Bible"?

Fascinating!

In any case that is certainly not the "atheism" of Huxley, Darwin, Dawkins, Provine, Meyers et al.

[BobRyan]

cardw,

Quote:

You are the ones who claim to know.

I can't speak for other Christians here; but I don't claim to know, cuz I don't. I personally have enough evidence from personal experience (or an overactive imagination) to believe it enough to stake my life on it.

[BobRyan]

There is absolutely no evidence for intelligent design. A

Then you do not understand (or are simply ignoring) the subject of design and "intelligence" from a scientific point of view.

Information does not come from the void.

DNA is an example of massively complex "stored information" and the cell is designed with systems capable not only of reading, repairing, translating, replicating the information but of "executing the instructions" that are stored in it as a response to the needs of the environment within and around it.

Gather some rocks and gas -- and try to work toward that "result" without any intelligence or design.

in Christ,

Bob

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

There is absolutely no evidence for intelligent design. A

Then you do not understand (or are simply ignoring) the subject of design and "intelligence" from a scientific point of view.

Information does not come from the void.

DNA is an example of massively complex "stored information" and the cell is designed with systems capable not only of reading, repairing, translating, replicating the information but of "executing the instructions" that are stored in it as a response to the needs of the environment within and around it.

Gather some rocks and gas -- and try to work toward that "result" without any intelligence or design.

One or both of us is wrong. That in itself would be an argument against intelligent design.

Before I answer this let me ask you a few questions.

Do you understand the idea of fractal mathematics?

Do you understand the idea of super symmetry?

Do you understand the idea of ordered iteration?

Or do you just want to continue knocking over simplistic reductions of reality?

It's pointless to answer you when you exhibit no understanding of complex processes.

So I don't really see any point in dialoging with your further.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

And that is memory not cognitive ability - not IQ.

Thanks for the informative article, Bob. It was something with which I felt I could agree. I'm just not too sure whether I can congratulate myself on how much I'm better off than what I knew before the article or how much worse, now that I know. LoL

While it is probably frustrating to the unbeliever to see someone who believes they can know anything, I have it on good Authority we can know all that is important for us to know, without danger of erring.

"“Now learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branches bud and its leaves begin to sprout, you know that summer is near. In the same way, when you see all these things taking place, you can know that his return is very near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene before all these things " Mark 13:28-30 NLT

"And you know that the Scriptures cannot be altered."John 10:35 NLT

"He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you."

John 14:17 NLT

It just depends on which world we want to live.

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

It's pointless to answer you when you exhibit no understanding of complex processes.

So I don't really see any point in dialoging with your further.

That's another nice thing about the Master I serve, he only asks for the trust and intelligence of a child, in order to meet the requirements for the home He's preparing for us.

"I tell you the truth, anyone who doesn’t receive the Kingdom of God like a child will never enter it."Mark 10:15 NLT

"There is more than enough room in my Father’s home. If this were not so, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you?"John 14:2 NLT

"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also."John 14:3 NKJV

God blesses!