Adventism

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Well if we follow your rule, [information does not come out of a void] then who created god?

Your question relies on a circular argument. To presuppose a time when God did not exist - is to presuppose atheism.

[JoeMo]

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So many Christian presentations of what atheists claim completely misrepresent their position either from a willful distortion or from a lack of comprehension.

cardw - theres something we can definitely agree on. The same thing can be said of how many Christians misrepresent pagans.

[JoeMo]

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I can see your point - why should you get into a Q&A when you don't have any answers. Certainly it is wise of you not to step into an area where you simply don't have information.

Bob, is this your way of saying that you think I'm stupid? If I recall, "belief" in God is a matter of faith; not fact. If the existence of a personal God was indeed a scientifically provable "fact". you and cardw wouldn't even be having this discussion, now, would you?

[CoAspen]

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If I recall, "belief" in God is a matter of faith; not fact.

Ah, and that is the rub of it all! We always want to 'prove' it to those who don't believe. If we believe, then we will act and show it, not by our words but by our lives. That is what God wants from us.

[LifeHiscost]

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[and this type of thinking doesn't necessarily limit itself to the "deluded" religious fanatics here, either !]

Because the subject(s) referred to in the statement above don't necessarily pursue the primary topic, I didn't want it/them to start elsewhere until I found it would fly as to interest.

Would it be possible for your delineation of fanatic be expounded on for clarity, and since you mentioned "here", who here might be considered among that select group? You may wish, and it might be better advised to open this subject in a separate topic if you so desire.

God blesses!

[JoeMo]

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If I recall, "belief" in God is a matter of faith; not fact.

Ah, and that is the rub of it all! We always want to 'prove' it to those who don't believe.

Exactly. A personal God cannot be "proven" or "disproven". IMO cardw has just as much right to his faith in reason as we have to our faith in God.

[JoeMo]

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If my faith in Jesus, which faith is not unreasonable,proves to be true, I have forever without end, to savor the joy of the universe created by the God Who is love.

So true!

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: JoeMo

Cardw asks questions that I cannot factually answer, so why try?

I can see your point - why should you get into a Q&A when you don't have any answers.

Certainly it is wise of you not to step into an area where you simply don't have information.

I don't think anyone is objecting to your doing that.

Life is good.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

Really???? From what you've talked about, you certainly are NOT open to Him....you keep talking about Him like you have to EARN salvation...And what makes you think He hasn't talked to you???

Well communication requires two people. I asked you specifically how I would tell if god communicated with me. If you can give me the terms I will certainly try it out. I would guess that I have already tried just about anything you could suggest, but I'll look at it.

[Neil D]

Just a reminder guys. You should not be discussing "religious' issues here on Townhall. It shows disrespect to Stan.

Since Stan started this discussion by asking about those who run away from the faith, I kinda think that Stan is NOT going to be too upset nor think that we are dissing him....

Of course, I have been known to be wrong before when it comes to 'reading' men's minds....but in this case...well, he certainly has the right to quash this discussion....

[Neil D]

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[and this type of thinking doesn't necessarily limit itself to the "deluded" religious fanatics here, either !]

Because the subject(s) referred to in the statement above don't necessarily pursue the primary topic, I didn't want it/them to start elsewhere until I found it would fly as to interest.

Would it be possible for your delineation of fanatic be expounded on for clarity, and since you mentioned "here", who here might be considered among that select group? You may wish, and it might be better advised to open this subject in a separate topic if you so desire....

Are you suuurrrre you want to get into labeling who is fanatic and who isn't? Remember this, one man's conservative is another man's fanatic...and since we are talking in reference to a 3rd and maybe a 4th person, are you suuuure you want to open that can of worms????

Let's try this...if you feel that the above description is in reference to you, why not start a new thread, and post as to how you might come to realize that the above description is related to you in some way?

[Woody]

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post547363

[Neil D]

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post547363

Redwood,

here's where you and cardw are alike....behavior orientated...Lol...

[LifeHiscost]

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IMO cardw has just as much right to his faith in reason as we have to our faith in God.

I agree. OTOH my faith in Jesus, which faith is not unreasonable,proves to be true, I have forever without end, to savor the joy of the universe created by the God Who is love. If I am wrong I get death, cessation of life, the same thing trust in reason without God will receive. Hmmmmm. Difficult choice. For an unreasonable person.

God blesses!

[Woody]

Okay then - well lets let all hell loose. Anything goes then. Yeah - I'm good with that. Just need to know what's up.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Well communication requires two people. I asked you specifically how I would tell if god communicated with me. If you can give me the terms I will certainly try it out. I would guess that I have already tried just about anything you could suggest, but I'll look at it.

But if you come at the friendship with a distorted and myopic view, ie having to earn your salvation, or a works ethic thinking, how will you EVER achieve an honest friendship?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post547363

Redwood,

here's where you and cardw are alike....behavior orientated...Lol...

Yeah. I realize that most people just laugh at Stan's request. And that's fine. To each his own.

[phkrause]

Well I know what you are saying doesn't work. I'm not sure what you believe does work.

Obviously it works for him!

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Well I know what you are saying doesn't work. I'm not sure what you believe does work.

Obviously it works for him!

And this helps me understand his point of view how?

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

When you are setting the terms of the friendship [ or any relationship for that matter], why should God deny His nature [or being Himself]?

I'm not saying it has to be on my terms. I was just asking you if God has terms, aren't those requirements I have to meet to be saved? You're not being very clear.

I can't really change what I'm doing unless I understand what you're trying to say.

"aren't those requirements I have to meet to be saved?"

How many times do I have to tell you....God isn't interested in saving you [so much as] but rather trying to garner your friendship?

Do you understand friendship with God [or anyone else, for that matter] in terms other than earning a respectability?

[cardw]

When you are setting the terms of the friendship [ or any relationship for that matter], why should God deny His nature [or being Himself]?

Originally Posted By: cardw

I'm not saying it has to be on my terms. I was just asking you if God has terms, aren't those requirements I have to meet to be saved? You're not being very clear.

I can't really change what I'm doing unless I understand what you're trying to say.

"aren't those requirements I have to meet to be saved?"

How many times do I have to tell you....God isn't interested in saving you [so much as] but rather trying to garner your friendship?

Do you understand friendship with God [or anyone else, for that matter] in terms other than earning a respectability?

Ok, God isn't interested in saving me. That's a new take.

Well for god to be my friend don't you think the threat of death if I don't should be off the table. Unless you're saying that everyone is going to be saved, then you may have a point.

I don't generally say to my friends that unless you are my friend you're going to die. I'm not sure that is much of a basis for friendship.

I do have conditions for friendship. I don't really want to hang around people who insult me all the time or leave when the going gets rough. To me, friendship is a mutual agreement for emotional benefit. I'm not trying to be everyone's savior, which is what you seem to be implying. I also have a measure of give and take, so the agreement is not formal.

My sons are the only one's that get my support no matter what. And I don't generally share my emotional burdens with them because that is what my friends are for. I want to maintain my relationship with them as a father. And I certainly don't tell them they are going to die if they aren't friends with me.

I'm still confused. I'm not saying that this doesn't work for you, but I am honestly in the dark as to what you are actually saying here.

[Neil D]

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Ok, God isn't interested in saving me. That's a new take.

Well, if that is the only way to get thru to you, I may have to over simplify the priorities and the eamples....

What I said [meant] was that saving you is NOT God's primary purpose....creating a friendship between you to is....

Big difference...wish you wouldn't put words in my mouth..

perhaps that is the mentality that you continue to exhibit...not trying to insult you, but rather just stating the fact that you are like some rich kid speaking a foreign language and are on a deserted island.....and you have no concept of survival skills and need to survive with this new Friend or die....Instead, you try to insist that He learn your language and serve you by bringing food in golden metal dishes..instead, what you don't seem to realise is that you have to go hunt and kill/scavage for food.....People who expect to work together to survive don't work at odd with one another....and that is where you are at...your expectations are not being met, you insist that He learn your ways, and you refuse to learn His language, even though He's tried to tell you.....So, what's the problem here?

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Well for god to be my friend don't you think the threat of death if I don't should be off the table. Unless you're saying that everyone is going to be saved, then you may have a point.

There you go again....Wanting something for nothing...You sound like an Adventist!!!!!!

That mentality is killing you, you know that????

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I don't generally say to my friends that unless you are my friend you're going to die. I'm not sure that is much of a basis for friendship.

Well, that's progress...not sure how much, but it is progress...a good realization..

So, I agree, dont make friends on the basis of conditions...It occurs to me that your primary objective, I should think, is to look for Him and find out what type of Person He is.....

Of course, if you are going to put more conditions on Him, appear or come to you in a specific way, or expect something over salvation/earning heaven, start talking about taking death off the table, ect. ect. ect, you are going to be so focused on missing hearing His words to you about loving you....and what a neat guy you are...and other stuff that only you might be privy to...provided you listen....

The concept here is that you "taste and see that the Lord is good"....IOWs, what you find is confirming a positive message to you....No promises are given, but a reassuring message that you are an alright person in His eyes.....

So, have you started looking for Him? How are you looking for Him?....Oh PULEESE,....reassure me that you are not looking for "the light" or some glowing person?

...and are you going where God is? Prolly for you, He WONT be in church....somewhere else would be my guess....You best look for Him there...where ever there is.....Oh, don't look to me...I don't know where you hang out....You go where He is...see if the two of you can meet up....

[cardw]

What I said [meant] was that saving you is NOT God's primary purpose....creating a friendship between you to is....

Big difference...wish you wouldn't put words in my mouth..

[Neil D]

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OK, I'm not sure why saving me and being my friend has to be prioritized.

Let me ask you this. Is it possible for me to be lost?

Oh, good night! There you go again....not getting your prioitys straight....Yoda said it well about you....something about "Not focusing"....Tell me something, are you always like this???? the rich kid on the island wanting to be served????

You got a survival problem...you dont know it yet, but you are already lost....YOU GOT BIGGER PRIORITYS LOOMING IN FRONT OF YOU......

I keep pointing you the direction you should go, and you go everywhere but there....There is a heaven to be gained and a hell to loose, and you keep trying to find hell......What IS with you????

Most people like to have friends....Why is it that you don't? Oh, are you intimidated[/b] by the God of the universe? Are you stymied by the fact you don't know what shape to attribute to Him? Are you even the least bit curiose as to why you can't seem to communicate with Him and everyone else who wants to is able to????

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Then it is required that I learn god's language? That seems like a requirement to me. I'm willing to do that except you haven't really explained what that is.

And you got more immediate problems than learning God's language....How about learning God's character? Have you had some experience which threatened you in which you averted thru no fault of your own?....lately? Have you had some fortunate turn of events which you never saw coming? Just askin'....just askin.....

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So since I want something for nothing that means I have to give something? That sounds like a transaction to me. It seems to me that you still are promoting some type of works, only its a different set of requirements.

Oh goooood niiiiight....YOU ARE AN ADVENTIST!!!???!!! You're stuck in the adventist mindset....You are just like everyone else in this forum....The difference between you and these guys is that they are religious...you aren't.....

Listen carefully to what I am about to post...there is no transaction here...there is no exchanges between you and Him that each of you would want except friendships...there is nothing that God wants from you of worth except your friendship....I would normally suggest that you 'unload' onto Him and talk with Him....but you've got no experiences with Him...you don't even believe that He exists, and you don't even think He's real....

And yet, He's there...wanting your friendship...wanting to show you His love and be your friend....I would ask you to try and, to quote the bible, "taste and see that the Lord is good"....But how can you taste the fruit when all you want is habaneros?

I've lead you thus far....you have to take that leap of faith....It's your friendship, not mine....

Of course, you are going to say that I'm writing you off...and from your POV, you might be right...But from my POV...the adventure is yours, not mine...You're gonna have to take a leap of faith....

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

OK, I'm not sure why saving me and being my friend has to be prioritized.

Let me ask you this. Is it possible for me to be lost?

Oh, good night! There you go again....not getting your prioitys straight....Yoda said it well about you....something about "Not focusing"....Tell me something, are you always like this???? the rich kid on the island wanting to be served????

You got a survival problem...you dont know it yet, but you are already lost....YOU GOT BIGGER PRIORITYS LOOMING IN FRONT OF YOU......

I keep pointing you the direction you should go, and you go everywhere but there....There is a heaven to be gained and a hell to loose, and you keep trying to find hell......What IS with you????