Adventism

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Christians are always looking for the next ego boost from judging how bad the world is and how fortunate they are to have the truth and other such nonsense.

For those of us who don't look at the world that way or believe such....I would suggest the the quote be preferenced with: 'Some'? If christianity was/is all about what the quote suggests, then there are a bunch of people headed in the wrong direction!!

[CoAspen]

Quote:

The difference is Christianity has you asking for forgiveness for being human. One is simply condemned for being born human. Before you deny this, remember Christianity teaches that we are born with an instinct to sin or in some traditions we are born with original sin.

In the context of 'forgiveness', to ask of others is simply to say 'I have hurt you or wronged you and I am truly sorry'. I don't even think of it in the condemnation sense. For me, it is the same if I am asking for givness of God. It is just something we do when we understand that others have been hurt by us. It gains us no merit, just the right thing to do!

[cardw]

But sadly that is what we have in this world - and that is what is being offered as the "alternative" to eternal life.

Reality being what it is.

Who is offering this? This is certainly not how I experience life. Sure there is pain, but for the most part my life is really great. It's Christians who always want to rain on my parade because life has to be miserable for Christianity to make sense.

[cardw]

Quote:

Christians are always looking for the next ego boost from judging how bad the world is and how fortunate they are to have the truth and other such nonsense.

For those of us who don't look at the world that way or believe such....I would suggest the the quote be preferenced with: 'Some'? If christianity was/is all about what the quote suggests, then there are a bunch of people headed in the wrong direction!!

You're right, some is a more accurate way to state this.

[cardw]

Quote:

The difference is Christianity has you asking for forgiveness for being human. One is simply condemned for being born human. Before you deny this, remember Christianity teaches that we are born with an instinct to sin or in some traditions we are born with original sin.

In the context of 'forgiveness', to ask of others is simply to say 'I have hurt you or wronged you and I am truly sorry'. I don't even think of it in the condemnation sense. For me, it is the same if I am asking for givness of God. It is just something we do when we understand that others have been hurt by us. It gains us no merit, just the right thing to do!

I think you are misunderstanding my use of the word forgiveness. I'm not including all instances of forgiveness. I think if you will look at how I defined forgiveness it is obvious that I'm not saying forgiveness is bad, but the idea that I have to be forgiven no matter what to be saved is a general undefined sense that I should be guilty simply for being born human.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

...a general undefined sense that I should be guilty simply for being born human.

Yes, that would be difficult to understand for those who don't believe in the God of the Bible. Christianity believes humans are born under the stain of 'sin' through genitics. Humans can't choose to be 'sinless' because of the belief that 'something happened' in the beginning from Adam and Eve to change all of the 'perfectness' of the original created design. I don't see myself as guilty of being born human, but rather as not perfect. I don't apologize to God for that, but rather as I said earlier, asking forgivness of my own stuborness/inability to do that which is right. I think christianity often has difficulty with the whole process of guilt and forgivness because of all the 'pat answers' we have learned and may be at times even wrong in our approach to answering the questions!

[Neil D]

It's obvious that you aren't understanding my meaning. To me, the idea that the a mythical god of the universe is concerned about my moral behavior is ego.

[snip]

My point is I can find all of these things easier without having to run them through a god and christianity filter. It may work for you and many others, but my point is that a naturalistic explanation does the same thing.

See, I DO understand...You and those traditional "works orientated" Adventists are on the same page in your understanding of God...He is interested in your moral behavior....NOT!!!!

Rather He is interested in you as a person....

...as a friend....like your friends that you hang out with....

And, like those traditional 'works orientated Adventists", you don't know how to relate to that...That is what I am saying and what YOU don't understand....but that's ok....you can change that...

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

In reality the devil did it in Genesis 3 -

He brings on the disease of disbelief' date=' sin and rebellion and then offers the cure "avoid God - avoid salvation, avoid the Gospel, go to the lake of fire along with me. But live in the joy of crime, disease, pain and suffering while doing it." - and like lemmings there are those who will follow him in that pointless message.

What is the "attraction"?? It seems like a pointless message.

Thus the devil created the problem and then his "fix" for you is to join in him living this life only - followed by no eternal life at all.

And of course in this life he offers pain, misery, suffering, death, sickness, crime, broken homes etc.

Originally Posted By: cardw

You live in a different world than I do. No one that I know calls crime, pain, disease, and suffering a joy.

But sadly that is what we have in this world - and that is what is being offered as the "alternative" to eternal life.

Reality being what it is.

Originally Posted By: cardw

That's a story you tell yourself to make Christianity good.

Or you can choose to read the newspaper and see it for yourself.

Even Pascal seems to have figured this out.

Originally Posted By: cardw

Who is offering this? This is certainly not how I experience life. Sure there is pain, but for the most part my life is really great.

[/quote']

Atheists need to be between the ages of 15 and 60 and in perfect health with no access to the news, internet or neighbors to keep up that mythical "life is grand we never see the down side" message.

But for the rest of us... we choose to allow ourselves to "notice" that

925 million people are hungry. Every day, almost 16,000 children die from hunger-related causes.

That's one child every five seconds not to mention 43.8 million abortions per year world wide in this grand atheist utopia!

And if there exists someone that doesn't count abortion as "death" because they view a certain class of humans as "not protected" - well then Cancer is a leading cause of death worldwide, accounting for 7.6 million deaths (around 13% of all deaths in 2008 stats.)

This is the "wonderful life" I have described in my earlier post - that the atheist view has to ignore to insist that this is a better alternative than eternal life with no crime, or sickness or evil.

In the 20th century approximately 231 million people were killed in wars and conflicts. Atheist utopia (i.e. Planet Earth as it is today) seems to abound with the smell of burning flesh. How do they not notice??

As I said before - even Pascal got this point.

in Christ,

Bob

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

It's obvious that you aren't understanding my meaning. To me, the idea that the a mythical god of the universe is concerned about my moral behavior is ego.

[snip]

My point is I can find all of these things easier without having to run them through a god and christianity filter. It may work for you and many others, but my point is that a naturalistic explanation does the same thing.

See, I DO understand...You and those traditional "works orientated" Adventists are on the same page in your understanding of God...He is interested in your moral behavior....NOT!!!!

I think you forget that I'm not trying to earn salvation because I don't believe there is a god to please in the first place.

So you don't understand because you are projecting issues on me that I don't have.

I'm not trying to be a "good" person. The only reason I live an ethical life is because it is a better life for me. I use informed self interest and that includes caring for other people. That's it. No mental gymnastics to make sure I get to heaven.

I think I need to let this conversation go because I feel like I'm in Tom's Rugrats comic strip. So I respectfully bid you good bye.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Who is offering this? This is certainly not how I experience life. Sure there is pain, but for the most part my life is really great.

Atheists need to be between the ages of 15 and 60 and in perfect health with no access to the news, internet or neighbors to keep up that mythical "life is grand we never see the down side" message.

But for the rest of us... we choose to allow ourselves to "notice" that

[BobRyan]

The ponderous weight of evidence admitting to the staggering amount of human woe and suffering on this earth is far too great to dismiss with "aint life grand".

Hopefully this is so obvious we can all see that.

Which gets us back to the point that Christianity's eternal life outcome beats the atheist alternative of "this weight of human woe + hole-in-ground" any day.

That is why in Romans 1 God says "they are without excuse" who choose to ignore some of these glaring details in life.

in Christ,

Bob

[Bravus]

The ponderous weight of evidence admitting to the staggering amount of human woe and suffering on this earth is far too great to dismiss with "aint life grand".

It's a matter of emphasis: there's at least as much love, joy, peace and patience as there is hate, anger, war and selfishness. Emphasising *either* to the exclusion of the other is unbalanced.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

the idea that I have to be forgiven no matter what to be saved is a general undefined sense that I should be guilty simply for being born human.

I agree that the sense of being lost from something undefined is unreasonable. That is why the Word makes the definition quite clear once one knows what sin is.

"And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin."1 John 3:3-5 NASB

"“Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die."Ezekiel 18:4 NKJV

Once one realizes there is a greater god than one's self, it isn't hard to come to terms, especially when what happens after three score and ten have transpired. The difference is so magnificent, it is difficult to understand why anyone would be unwilling to accept what is offered. Only acceptance of lies meant to deceive tells the full story.

God blesses!

[cardw]

Quote:

the idea that I have to be forgiven no matter what to be saved is a general undefined sense that I should be guilty simply for being born human.

I agree that the sense of being lost from something undefined is unreasonable. That is why the Word makes the definition quite clear once one knows what sin is.

"And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin."1 John 3:3-5 NASB

"“Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die."Ezekiel 18:4 NKJV

This makes my point perfectly. Because the "sense of being lost from something undefined is unreasonable" Christianity has to use fear to convince people that something unreasonable is true. And once you accept the Bible as being true no matter how unreasonable you can make claims that everyone has sinned and "The soul who sins shall die."

And once you get people to accept this one thing you can control them through authority and fear. Control is about ego and fear. There is nothing spiritual about this other than you can get temporary relief from the shame placed on you by these teachings.

This is how the cycle of addiction works. You create a dependency, fear, and shame and then offer temporary relief. This is why religion is considered a massive addictive process run rampant in this world. It causes untold suffering and death because people get so connected to it that they are willing to condemn and isolate or kill other people who have different ideas. They are killing over irrational beliefs.

[LifeHiscost]

Your explanations of reasons why to distrust the God of the universe, that which He created, gives evidence that you never had a personal knowledge of Jesus, one on One, in your religiousness and really is the one thing I know of why you would be unhappy if you were there, the basic reason why no one is forced to go. The enemies of God, if permitted in would only perpetuate the lie that was stated from the beginning and God has promised never to allow this to happen again.

No argument is enough to satisfy the one who has made up their mind that they will not believe. None are so blind as those who will not see.

"What do you conspire against the LORD? He will make an utter end of it. Affliction will not rise up a second time." Nahum 1:9 NKJV

He who had received one talent also came forward, saying, Master, I knew you to be a harsh and hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you had not winnowed [the grain].

So I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is your own.

But his master answered him, You wicked and lazy and idle servant! Did you indeed know that I reap where I have not sowed and gather [grain] where I have not winnowed?

Then you should have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received what was my own with interest.

So take the talent away from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents.

For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will be furnished richly so that he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have will be taken away.

And throw the good-for-nothing servant into the outer darkness; there will be weeping and grinding of teeth.

Matthew 25:24-30 AMP

God is to us, whom we make Him out to be. The proof in that is seen clearly in the prince of darknesses lie about Him.

God blesses!

[cardw]

No argument is enough to satisfy the one who has made up their mind that they will not believe. None are so blind as those who will not see.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Christianity has to use fear to convince people that something unreasonable is true. And once you accept the Bible as being true no matter how unreasonable you can make claims that everyone has sinned and "The soul who sins shall die."

cardw,

I pretty much agree with your statement, except that I wouldn't use the term "Christianity" - I would use the term "religion". Almost all man-made religions use fear as the basis for controlling people's behavior and wallet. There are some of us spiritual people out here (Christian and non-Christian alike) who think our deities are pretty nice; and just like hanging out with them through our faith and fellowship. You can be of the opinion that we're playing make-believe - I don't care. I like hanging out with my God - I enjoy His company.

[cardw]

Quote:

Christianity has to use fear to convince people that something unreasonable is true. And once you accept the Bible as being true no matter how unreasonable you can make claims that everyone has sinned and "The soul who sins shall die."

cardw,

I pretty much agree with your statement, except that I wouldn't use the term "Christianity" - I would use the term "religion". Almost all man-made religions use fear as the basis for controlling people's behavior and wallet. There are some of us spiritual people out here (Christian and non-Christian alike) who think our deities are pretty nice; and just like hanging out with them through our faith and fellowship. You can be of the opinion that we're playing make-believe - I don't care. I like hanging out with my God - I enjoy His company.

You know, if you are having an internal conversation and that helps you find meaning and pleasure in your life, I have no problem with that.

It is at the point where you tell me this god you are talking with is real and unless I give my heart to this god I will burn in the lake of fire, is where I do have a problem. You may not believe this personally, but as soon as you call what you are doing Christianity, there is a whole load of baggage comes with that label.

[John317]

It is at the point where you tell me this god you are talking with is real and unless I give my heart to this god I will burn in the lake of fire, is where I do have a problem. You may not believe this personally, but as soon as you call what you are doing Christianity, there is a whole load of baggage comes with that label.

But you do understand, don't you, that followers of Christ are only obeying their Lord's command when they tell you that unless you give your life over to Him, you cannot be saved?

Jesus did say, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. [24] I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I AM [he] you will die in your sins." {John 8: 23-24}

And:

John 3:16-17

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him."

[Aliensanctuary]

Popular religions have so corrupted human conception of our origin and destiny. Some religionists would even put their own words into the mouth of YHVH (God).

All of the religions of the world will someday be consigned to the trash pile of human history. Although most are well-intentioned, advocating the "do not harm others" principle, for example, they all skew what was originally not religion, but a business-only master/slave relationship. This no-nonsense business arrangement may seem harsh to our current sensibilities, especially if the end result of the violation of the code of ethics is ultimately fatal: but business is business.

We can protest the great injustice of the destruction of the noncompliant and the rebellious, but if that's what the owners of the business want, we are in no position to change that. If our owners want to get rid of all opposition in order to purge the universe of selfishness, that is, evil, it is unlikely we can do anything to stop it, deaf, dumb, blind, and impotent as we are.

We are, I believe, destined to become workers, perhaps slaves, of those who colonized this world so long ago. In order for that to work, those of us who are offered jobs will need to have our sense of self deleted from our brains. Selfishness and rebellion will then be impossible, and all will be peace and harmony until the end of time...

[cardw]

But you do understand, don't you, that followers of Christ are only obeying their Lord's command when they tell you that unless you give your life over to Him, you cannot be saved?

Jesus did say, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. [24] I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I AM [he] you will die in your sins." {John 8: 23-24}

What you call the Lord's command I call an iron age myth. I guess the Israelites were just obeying the Lord's command when they stoned the man gathering sticks or they were just obeying the Lord's command when they raped and killed their neighbors. Actually they were obeying the Lord's command.

And please don't bother quoting more scripture and giving me all the nonsense that god was working with their culture. If you want a people to be less violent you don't order them to kill and rape. And when they don't like being enslaved you don't tell them to enslave others.

You keep quoting the bible like that will hold any weight with me. The OT was written by an iron age tribal culture that was one of the most primitive of their time. And the NT is an adapted pagan myth.

I keep telling you that evidence and reason are my basis for truth. Quoting the bible is not evidence and is hardly rational.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

You know, if you are having an internal conversation and that helps you find meaning and pleasure in your life, I have no problem with that.

It is at the point where you tell me this god you are talking with is real and unless I give my heart to this god I will burn in the lake of fire, is where I do have a problem.

Although I don't "feel" like it is a strictly "internal" conversation, it does give meaning and pleasure to my life. I do consider it real.

Even though I am a Christian, I'm probably the last guy to threaten you with burning if you don't accept Jesus. Fear is not a healthy basis for a relationship with either another human or a deity. All I can tell you is what God does (or I imagine He does) for me. What transpires or doesn't transpire between you and the God of heaven (or any other deity) is between you and that god. It's not my responsibility to drag you kicking and screaming into the Kingdom of Heaven, if it indeed exists. I believe it does; and it makes me happy; not afraid or sad. If I am ignorant, at least I am blissfully ignorant!

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

The ponderous weight of evidence admitting to the staggering amount of human woe and suffering on this earth is far too great to dismiss with "aint life grand".

It's a matter of emphasis: there's at least as much love, joy, peace and patience as there is hate, anger, war and selfishness. Emphasising *either* to the exclusion of the other is unbalanced.

Perhaps we can leave it to you and God to weigh that suffering out and assure us that the scales exactly balance out - with love and joy.

Let's take the 1 child starves to death every 5 seconds number as a start. What is your suggested event that balances that out and makes us even? If you look at the numbers and locations it appears that the new babies born are by far more concentrated in areas where the infant mortality rate and death by factors related to lack of food is the highest.

But the Bible does not appear to support that "it all balances out" idea - since it claims we are headed down the Genesis 6 road to destruction.

in Christ,

Bob

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I keep telling you that evidence and reason are my basis for truth. Quoting the bible is not evidence and is hardly rational.

And , as a man of evidence and reason, it is logical to assume that a live, thinking, physical human body, with some 32 billion

(more or less) cells, each making an effort to keep the rest of that body healthy and secure, is a result of a big bang(and two or three million years of time) and gradually all of the pieces fall into place working together to accomplish that end.

And if one believes that to be true, it would also be true that one could also believe it to be true a person could take the 30,000 (more or less) disassembled parts of an Eldorado Cadillac, put them all in a large container and shake them vigorously for two or three million years and then, bang, out comes this like new Eldorado Cadillac. What a surprise!!!

God blesses!

[cardw]

Quote:

I keep telling you that evidence and reason are my basis for truth. Quoting the bible is not evidence and is hardly rational.

And , as a man of evidence and reason, it is logical to assume that a live, thinking, physical human body, with some 32 billion

(more or less) cells, each making an effort to keep the rest of that body healthy and secure, is a result of a big bang(and two or three million years of time) and gradually all of the pieces fall into place working together to accomplish that end.

The inability to completely explain the origin of the human body does not prove that Christianity is true. Any mystery of the universe doesn't prove that Christianity is true.

Its like claiming that because you can't make an iPhone on your own Steve Jobs must have been god.