Adventism

[JoeMo]

Excellent thread, all! Thanks to Tom (or other Mods) for re-opening it!

[cardw]

Quote:

And the fear core in Christianity is believe or die.

And the fear core of health principles is drink water and eat food or die, ad-infinitum.

Eating is an instinct. Most people don't have to be told to eat.

[cardw]

How do you treat a person here on this world? You talk to him, walk with him, take him out to dinner, do things with him.

....Well, that's how you treat God...there is a two way conversation, you talk and He listens AND He talks and you listen...You share what you learn. You do things together...

And then there's bible time where you get your instruction for the day.:-)

[M. T. Cross]

Oddly enough everyone that is trying to use the argument of "But if we are right and there is a God its safer to be on that side" against CardW's arguement that Christianity is fear based is really proving his point.

[BobRyan]

Like the point that you eat food because the alternative is death - so you must be "fear based".

Jesus said "I am the WAY the Truth and the LIFE" in John 14 -- those who think that "choosing LIFE" is not a God given instinct - as in choosing to eat - need to think about that a little longer.

In Romans 1 God says that the pagans are without excuse - on this thread that point keeps getting illustrated.

in Christ,

Bob

[M. T. Cross]

Quote:

In Romans 1 God says that the pagans are without excuse - on this thread that point keeps getting illustrated.

Of course not - there is no need for an excuse. Not sure what it is I would need excused.

What I am finding most amusing - in a sad sort of way - is that Stan asked a very simple question. So CardW and I both answered one part of that question based on our experience. That seems very simple and in line with the thread topic. However both our reasons have been questioned and at least in Card's case ridiculed and condemned. I am failing here to see how that had anything to do with the thread topic.

I do applaud the one or two people that actually sought to learn something from the reasons we gave in our answers.

[cardw]

Like the point that you eat food because the alternative is death - so you must be "fear based".

Actually the only time fear enters into the issue of eating is in the case of anorexia. You have to have the fear of being fat to stop eating.

Most people don't eat because they are afraid. They eat because they are hungry. Fear creates unnatural responses.

Now if we take the example of Church attendance.

You have to threaten most kids with punishment to get them to "want" to go to church. You don't generally have to threaten them to eat breakfast.

I know my sons hated church. We had to sweeten the deal with special toys and activities they could do during the sermon. To them it was largely "Wah, wah, wah, wah" like in the Charlie brown cartoons.

And to be honest 90 percent of the sermons I sat through were pretty inane. I think after a while I could almost mouth the cliches' presented almost every week.

I believe most people would have zero interest in religion without a fear of death. I remember taking witnessing classes and you can read this in Ellen White as well. I was taught that until you convinced the sinner of the enormity of their guilt, salvation would have no meaning. I remember as a kid trying to find my own enormous guilt so that salvation would have meaning to me, because I felt guilty for thinking that church was really boring. If only I had more of the spirit of god then the sermons would fill my soul with unspeakable joy. What a con. LOL

You guys prove my point over and over because you say that the "advantage" that comes from god is forgiveness. For that to have meaning you have to scare me that I going to die in the lake of fire and that even though I don't feel guilty I need to feel the true nature of my terrible guilt. And if I don't then I'm being proud and arrogant.

I got tired of being a walking apology so I could be humble enough to receive gods grace. Now that is hell. I haven't seen anything you have to offer that doesn't involve fear and guilt. You create the disease and then offer the cure. If pharmaceutical companies did that we would call them evil.

I'm just saying....

[BobRyan]

Like the point that you eat food because the alternative is death - so you must be "fear based".

Jesus said "I am the WAY the Truth and the LIFE" in John 14 -- those who think that "choosing LIFE" is not a God given instinct - as in choosing to eat - need to think about that a little longer.

In Romans 1 God says that the pagans are without excuse - on this thread that point keeps getting illustrated.

[cardw]

This video illustrates how creepy the Christian "good news" is if we place it in a real life situation.

[BobRyan]

What I will grant you is that someone sitting in a car seat without their seatbelt on - might suddenly but the belt on - if they see a particularly risky travel experience looming just ahead of them.

God has "Good news" for us - we don't have to live on earth with the Devil forever - and suffer disease, catastrophe, crime etc for millennia on end. God has a plan to end all the suffering and return mankind to the Garden of Eden - eternal life - no pain no suffering no sin no crime.

As it turns out - even the Devil wishes he could get in on some of that.

in Christ,

Bob

[phkrause]

You create the disease and then offer the cure.

What would that "disease" be? Evil, is what I'm gonna guess? So let me get this straight, are you saying that Christians created "Evil" so they can than now claim they have a cure? First Christians didn't come into existence till after Christ, but I believe "evil" was already around! No? Or maybe the Jews created "evil" since they originally were "God's people?" But than actually "evil" was already around before there was a Jew! So maybe than it had to be Adam? Since him and Eve were here before there was a Jew or Christian for that matter!! No I know, it had to be God and his cohorts that created "Evil" and than they figured hey we have an idea, lets sent God the Son and allow him to die, for us allowing "evil" to enter the universe! Next time that we create lets not allow "choice" to enter the picture, look at what has happen to our creation, we'll just create robots.

Not sure what you were trying to say with that comment, but that's how I took it. If I'm wrong than I apologize.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

You create the disease and then offer the cure.

What would that "disease" be? Evil, is what I'm gonna guess?

Remember the cure offered is forgiveness. You can't forgive something unless there's guilt. Christianity creates guilt, which is a form of fear, then offers the cure.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I find no evidence that one needs a holy book to function well in one's community.

I find that an amazing assessment when taking the community of man into consideration and would even question the motive of one who makes such a statement to have any higher purpose other than to justify their argument to be worth any serious consideration.

God blesses!

[cardw]

Quote:

I find no evidence that one needs a holy book to function well in one's community.

I find that an amazing assessment when taking the community of man into consideration and would even question the motive of one who makes such a statement to have any higher purpose other than to justify their argument to be worth any serious consideration.

Has the Bible made Christians better behaved?

I don't think so. The divorce and imprisonment rate is higher among Christians than non believers. Even on key issues to Christians, such as abortion, Christians behave worse. The abortion rate among Christians is higher than non-believers. One could argue that the teachings of the Bible worsen the moral behavior of people.

I prefer to look at evidence instead of just stating what I want to be true.

Even Jesus teaches that moral behavior is self referenced. He doesn't say love your neighbor as the 10 commandments say. He says love your neighbor as yourself.

So, unless you have something other than wishful thinking to reference, I find your assessment far less than amazing.

[John317]

Remember the cure offered is forgiveness. You can't forgive something unless there's guilt. Christianity creates guilt, which is a form of fear, then offers the cure.

You don't believe there's true guilt? I'm not talking about feelings of guilt. I'm asking about genuine guilt, guilt that exists whether people feel guilty or not.

[John317]

The divorce and imprisonment rate is higher among Christians than non believers.

That's because in this country, most people claim to be "Christians" even though they often aren't. What's the percentage of "non-believers"?

The Bible doesn't teach that people are Christians just because of a claim. That's how society views it, but it is a false view. Lots of the people in jail claim to be "Christian" or "Catholic" simply because they were baptized as a infant.

The reason this is important to know is that the Bible tells us that we can expect false Christians to do evil things. That is nothing new.

[BobRyan]

The divorced rate among SDAs is lower than in the general public. The only segment of the SDA church with a divorce rate anything like that of the general public is among those who have only been members for a short time and thus their divorce happened either while non-SDA or as they converted and unbelieving partners separated from them.

[BobRyan]

Incarceration distribution in America by religious affiliation

Catholic 29,267 31.432%

Protestant 26,162 28.097%

None/Atheist/Unknown 18,537 19.908%

Muslim 5,435 5.837%

American Indian 2,408 2.586%

Nation of Islam 1,734 1.862%

Rastafarian 1,485 1.595%

Jewish 1,325 1.423%

Church of Christ 1,303 1.399%

Pentecostal 1,093 1.174%

Moorish 1,066 1.145%

Buddhist 882 0.947%

Jehovah's Witnesses 665 0.714%

Adventist 621 0.667%

Eastern Orthodox 375 0.403%

Latter-day Saints 298 0.320%

Scientology 190 0.204%

Hindu 119 0.128%

Santeria 117 0.126%

Sikh 14 0.015%

Baha'i 9 0.010%

ISKCON 7 0.008%

-------------------- ------ --------

Total 93,112 100.000%

[BobRyan]

You create the disease and then offer the cure. If pharmaceutical companies did that we would call them evil.

I'm just saying....

In reality the devil did it in Genesis 3 -

He brings on the disease of disbelief, sin and rebellion and then offers the cure "avoid God - avoid salvation, avoid the Gospel, go to the lake of fire along with me. But live in the joy of crime, disease, pain and suffering while doing it." - and like lemmings there are those who will follow him in that pointless message.

What is the "attraction"?? It seems like a pointless message.

in Christ,

Bob

[phkrause]

Remember the cure offered is forgiveness. You can't forgive something unless there's guilt. Christianity creates guilt, which is a form of fear, then offers the cure.

So your saying that asking for forgiveness is only a Christian thing? If I'm not a Christian I don't have to ask forgiveness of someone I've hurt? I don't believe that for a minute.

[JoeMo]

Bob,

If you were trying to show that SDA's were more moral than the general population, you failed.

What is meaningful is that 23.9% of Americans are Catholic; so the fact that 31.4% of the prison population claims to be Catholic implies that Catholics make up a disproportionate part of the prison population by a ratio of about 1.3138 to 1.

0.4% of the U.S population claims to be SDA, so the fact that 0.667% of the prison population is SDA implies that SDA's make up a disproportionate part of the prison population by a ratio of about 1.6675 to 1.

So can we conclude from the above statistics that SDA's are about 27% more evil that Catholics?

On the other hand, 29% of the U.S claims to be athiest, agnostic, or "no religion"; yet they make up only 19.9% of the prison population. Using the math I used above, that makes them more "moral" (or at least law-abiding) than the general population by a ratio of 0.6862 to 1; and even better when compared to those who call themselves Christian. Is that a conclusion in favor of athiesm or in condemnation of Christian religiousity? (Or neither?)

I'm not claiming my statistical calculations are valid - I'm demonstrating that you can make numbers say anything you want .

Be careful about quoting misleading statistics.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Remember the cure offered is forgiveness. You can't forgive something unless there's guilt. Christianity creates guilt, which is a form of fear, then offers the cure.

So your saying that asking for forgiveness is only a Christian thing? If I'm not a Christian I don't have to ask forgiveness of someone I've hurt? I don't believe that for a minute.

I'm not sure where I stated that forgiveness is only a Christian thing? The difference is Christianity has you asking for forgiveness for being human. One is simply condemned for being born human. Before you deny this, remember Christianity teaches that we are born with an instinct to sin or in some traditions we are born with original sin.

The point is when you state that unless you become a Christian you don't get the forgiveness of god and eternal life you are using fear. I notice that none of you has presented a scenario where one would become a Christian without fear.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

You create the disease and then offer the cure. If pharmaceutical companies did that we would call them evil.

I'm just saying....

In reality the devil did it in Genesis 3 -

He brings on the disease of disbelief, sin and rebellion and then offers the cure "avoid God - avoid salvation, avoid the Gospel, go to the lake of fire along with me. But live in the joy of crime, disease, pain and suffering while doing it." - and like lemmings there are those who will follow him in that pointless message.

You live in a different world than I do. No one that I know calls crime, pain, disease, and suffering a joy. That's a story you tell yourself to make Christianity good.

People who do these things are generally driven by fear and addiction. When you really talk with them honestly none of them is saying they are having a great time. Their ego wants you to think it's great, but the truth is addiction is pretty miserable for the most part with short periods of relief.

Christianity is a form of addiction as well. Christians are always looking for the next ego boost from judging how bad the world is and how fortunate they are to have the truth and other such nonsense.

Like I said its about ego and fear and I think Solomon would agree. All is vanity.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

The divorce and imprisonment rate is higher among Christians than non believers.

That's because in this country, most people claim to be "Christians" even though they often aren't. What's the percentage of "non-believers"?

The Bible doesn't teach that people are Christians just because of a claim. That's how society views it, but it is a false view. Lots of the people in jail claim to be "Christian" or "Catholic" simply because they were baptized as a infant.

The reason this is important to know is that the Bible tells us that we can expect false Christians to do evil things. That is nothing new.

Well then if you get to exclude all the bad people from your group then I get to exclude all the stupid atheists because doing crime is not rational so they aren't true atheists. This is not an honest test of the effectiveness of Christianity or atheism is you get to exclude the people who don't meet your criteria.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: cardw

You create the disease and then offer the cure. If pharmaceutical companies did that we would call them evil.

I'm just saying....

In reality the devil did it in Genesis 3 -

He brings on the disease of disbelief, sin and rebellion and then offers the cure "avoid God - avoid salvation, avoid the Gospel, go to the lake of fire along with me. But live in the joy of crime, disease, pain and suffering while doing it." - and like lemmings there are those who will follow him in that pointless message.

What is the "attraction"?? It seems like a pointless message.